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Canon Pricing Policy - Open Letter to Canon Ireland: Progress

  • 13-07-2006 03:11PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭


    OK ... I have had enough of this!!

    I really would like to buy my equipment here in Ireland. Currently I buy everything from Germany or USA.

    I am in the process of buying a Canon 100-400 IS L zoom, some prices -

    Ireland's best -
    Gunns - €1850
    Conns - €2050

    The Rest -
    www.ac-foto.com (Germany) - €1,420
    www.bhphotovideo.com - €1240 approx depending on exchange rates (this is the non grey market verison)

    Compare this to the Nikon D200 body at €1,940 from Gunns and €1,700 from ac-foto. Apparently the problem affects Nikon to a much lessor extent.

    My conclusion - This problem is not created by Gunns or Conns or other Irish retailers. It is created by Canon Ireland and their pricing strategy to the retailers. This is in not in the anyone's interest since is forces us to risk buying gear overseas and takes local business out of the country. I'm sure it would be interesting to see how European law deals with this situation too. Is Canon policy in fact legal under EU law ?

    My solution. Lets let Canon know how we feel about this situation. we can vote with our feet. In fact I already have in buying Sigma lenses.

    The person you need to write to is -

    Philip Brady
    Canon Ireland Limited
    Arena Road
    Sandyford Industrial Estate
    Dublin 18

    It is in your interest to participate the more of us that do the better the chance that Canon might respond.

    Where do you buy most of your high value Canon Camera Equipment ? 91 votes

    Irish Retailer (Note: Online or Outlet treated the same)
    0%
    UK Retailer
    16%
    BorderfoxDrummerBoysnickerpusssteve04kjtfilm_gonzomasteroftherealmDimy311SniviliancorkimpTropheusGandalf the Redlocalchappansyflower 15 votes
    German Retailer
    15%
    SebzyHuggy BearBodhanjohndoe77ieCameramanjam_mac_jamcianclarkePaulieCImaginephotocolmrangerBlazersligocameraclubTacticalQwikpix 14 votes
    Other European Union Retailer
    45%
    OSiriSgandalfEnygmapencilFionnHydromonkeyelrondCarrigmanevilhomerFinoBladVillainCONMIKE12sionnachgs39tjoe_elwayLucious SweetOwenwDeacon BluesMumhalensman 41 votes
    Non European Union Retailer
    23%
    sceptreobewanleulerdavmigilKobieRuggieBeareirlinkblokedarraghnsimonshorttPadraig MortargetDevonladgie353younglynchrahenyguyhowya horsepaudieClseepershavoh 21 votes


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Good call - theres no point whinging about it and doing nothing - their prices are ridiculous alright, and yes I would have thought that there was eu legislation in place to cover this sort of scalping.

    I read somewhere the other day that the taxation on camera gear is about 5 % different from germany - so with that in mind somone somewhere is taking the piss. Roll on europe wide common pricing !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭limbovski


    I recently was looking to purchase a case for my ultra compact camera the most appropriate 'pouch' was a canon for €35. The next most expensive case was €25.99.

    The canon however was simply two pieces of material joined together the 25.99 job was a huge case with padding, pockets, zips, clips and everything else....

    i know the canon case was probably custom made for an ixus or whatever but still. similar cases from other manufactures (also custom made) were between €6 and €10. :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 449 ✭✭Smokeyskelton


    Hi

    For the record, I am buying a Nikon D200 from Gunn's and it is €1,700 (I assume you are talking body only, no lens). I decided not to buy in B&H despite going there shortly, (I've never been to New York before, so will definitely go to B&H to have a look). As I said in another post I was going to buy abroad, but for the sake of the hassle with warranties and customs the difference was only 7% or so in price.

    However, in general I am with you 100%, we do get ripped off compared to America, they also have to import the stuff from Asia, what gives? This goes for all the manufacturers not just Canon.

    Smokey


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭eas



    For the record, I am buying a Nikon D200 from Gunn's and it is €1,700
    Smokey

    that's quite a good price for a "Bricks and Morter" shop. Did you haggle them down to that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭leinsterman


    Hi,

    Here is a draft extract from the (rather long... sorry) letter I will be sending to Canon Ireland. I have removed some parts to protect my privacy -
    Firstly let me say I am the owner of a Canon EOS 20d SLR and an assortment of other Canon products. (including 50mm F1.8 lens, Speedlight 420EX, iP8500 printer, 75-300mm USM lens, Powershot S400, EOS 500 SLR, Battery grip BG-E2). I purchased all of my Canon equipment overseas despite wanting to buy here in Ireland, keeping money and jobs in Ireland. The EOS range of camera equipment is excellent; the EOS 20d body is by far the best imaging product I have ever purchased.

    As an amateur photography enthusiast, I have advanced to the point where I want to start to acquire better Camera equipment and build a good collection of quality lenses. I am currently considering the purchase of the Canon 100-400mm IS L lens for my first purchase (hopefully of many) in the “L” range. I have investigated pricing of this lens here, in Germany, the UK and in the USA. My findings lead me to believe that Canon Ireland’s pricing policy towards retailers is causing a problem that is against the interests of consumers, the Irish camera retail business, the Irish economy and the Canon Corporation itself.

    Let me illustrate this point by making a comparison of the retail pricing on the 100-400mm IS L lens to the Nikon D200 body. I have had occasion to do business with all of the retailers below, they are all reputable and none of these items are grey market –
    • Irish Retailer 1 - €2,050 / net of Irish VAT - €1,694
    • Irish Retailer 2 - €1,850 / net of Irish VAT - €1,529
    • German Retailer 1 - €1,420 / net of German VAT - €1,224 (Note: This is less than retailer’s cost in Ireland!!)
    • UK Retailer 1 - €1,745 / net of UK VAT - €1,442
    • USA Retailer 1 - €1,200 / net of New York State tax - €1,105

    Let me compare this to the pricing of the Nikon D200 body as follows (same retailers) –
    • Irish Retailer 1 - €1,940 / net of Irish VAT - €1,603
    • Irish Retailer 2 - €1,700 / net of Irish VAT - €1,405
    • German Retailer 1 - €1,700 / net of German VAT - €1,465
    • UK retailer 1 - €1,670 / net of UK VAT - €1,421
    • USA Retailer 1 - €1,460 / net of New York State Tax - €1,341

    As you can see, for the same outlets, Nikon pricing is far more consistent. This makes Nikon a more attractive option to Irish consumers wanting to buy Irish and have local support / warranty. I have no doubt this will hurt Canon business interests in Ireland now that Nikon have released the excellent D200.

    I appreciate that one can expect a variation from retailer to retailer in a free market. I also appreciate that distribution cost, local VAT rates etc. can lead to significant variation between markets.....

    .... I have shared this information with others in the photography forum of www.boards.ie. You can clearly see in this forum an indication of an overwhelming trend for Irish photography enthusiasts either to purchase their camera equipment overseas or buy from Nikon and others.

    It appears we have all come to the same conclusion: Someone, somewhere in the Canon Ireland supply chain is overpricing. In my opinion it is not the retailers, the finger of suspicion points directly at Canon Ireland. There can be no justification for such wide variation within the EU zone. I would be interested to see how this lines up under EU law. It appears to be the application of outdated pricing policies long overdue for review in the light of a new global economy and the emergence of online retailing.

    Whoever is at the centre of this problem is hurting the entire supply chain including Canon Ireland. It is stifling local business growth in the sector and forcing money directly out of the Irish economy. Something has to give here, Canon cannot expect local retailers to continue act as their showroom while overseas and online retailers reap the benefits of the sale.

    I would be grateful if you could review this situation and let me know what, if anything, Canon intends to do in the short term to address it.

    It is unfortunate that I am now forced to consider if it is in my interest to write off my losses with Canon and move to Nikon. I am willing to be patient to give Canon the opportunity to respond, but my patience is beginning to run out. In the interim I am without a suitable long lens which is not making me very happy with Canon.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 449 ✭✭Smokeyskelton


    Hi eas

    No, I didn't haggle at all. I ordered one a couple of weeks ago, and one happened to come in stock the next day. (They has previously been waiting a couple of months for a delivery I think). As it happened I didn't have the money at the time so getting it on Saturday (all things going well), so hopefully they don't give me a horrible shock when I go in.

    I never thought that a small old fashioned shop likes Gunn would be aggresive/progressive on price, but read about them on this forum and was pleasantly surprised when I rang. As I say, it is still a bit dearer then the US, but with customs and warranty issues it was not worth the difference in price.

    Still, fingers crossed for Saturday that they don't say "sorry about that, but it is actually €2,000"!

    Smokey


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,763 ✭✭✭Fenster


    I've worked in retail for years and every retailer has to make their margin somehow - for photo stores its accessories, although there always comes the point when they're taking the piss with prices. Take the lens hood for the Canon kit lens, which is 30 euro. Its a bit of plastic that probably cost 50 cents. Also, the markup on a lot of lenses can be scary, no matter where you purchase.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭sdssarah


    of course you could always go to a place like the camera exchange on georges st, they do second hadn stuff there as well as new stuff, and they give good discounts!

    but if you want to fight the man, then go right ahead, personally i love my eos 350d and all its accessories and has been nothing but an absolute treat to me :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    Definately a cause worthy of support. It cant just be down to "good old rip off Ireland" that this stuff is unjustifyably expensive.

    I find myself buying in Hong Kong because of the prices in Ireland. I'd love to buy locally, if prices were a little more realistic that is. Until such time as that happens, Hong Kong and Sigma have my business.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    seems very odd alright.

    statistically, the co-efficient of variation in prices for the canon lens is about 0.2, whilst for the nikon camera it is 0.1. this indicates around twice the variation in price between the two products.

    i wonder how they'll try and justify it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    I wonder if they'll bother trying to justify it. If any satisfactory reply is given to the question I'll be amazed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,332 ✭✭✭311


    UK Retailer
    I was always putting down the large canon prices here ,to the small market we have and the cost of having service for their products ,But

    Sigma has a service centre in cork and unfortunately I've had to use it already ,there was no problems or time delays and sigma products are the same price here on the high street as they are on technikdirect.

    I'm sure high street shops are making money from selling sigmas here and the rent on shops here is dearer than a net warehouse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭leinsterman


    _Brian_ wrote:

    I'm sure high street shops are making money from selling sigmas here and the rent on shops here is dearer than a net warehouse.

    This is going to sound as if I work in the industry but I can assure you I am merely a concerned amateur.

    Having had the opportunity to discuss with some of the high street shops I can say that many are making margins in the single digit area (between 0 and 10%). This varies from shop to shop but you would be surprised how little some are making from equipment. Many rely on other items they sell to make money and use camera bodies and lenses as loss leaders.

    By way of example, the costs of a Canon 100-400mm IS L to the retailer is about €1,375. When you add and margin of about 5% and VAT at 21% this give s a price of around €1,800. But you have to remember that Irish retailers are already at a disadvantage here since VAT in Germany (16%) and UK (17.5%) is less.
    rymus wrote:
    I wonder if they'll bother trying to justify it. If any satisfactory reply is given to the question I'll be amazed.

    Thanks very much Rymus for making this thread sticky. We need to get as much people behind this as possible.

    If you are behind me on this, and you cannot find the time to write to Canon yourself, then at least post your feelings in this thread. Let us know if you have bought overseas (you don't need to say where). I will make sure Canon Ireland get to see your comments.

    We can use this thread as a kind of petition.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭leinsterman


    mloc wrote:
    seems very odd alright.

    statistically, the co-efficient of variation in prices for the canon lens is about 0.2, whilst for the nikon camera it is 0.1. this indicates around twice the variation in price between the two products.

    i wonder how they'll try and justify it.

    I'm no statistician but the variance problem may be worse when you net everything of local VAT rates, see below -

    Canon 100-400mm IS L Lens -
    • Conns net of Irish VAT - €1,694
    • Gunns net of Irish VAT - €1,529
    • AC-foto net of German VAT - €1,224 (Note: This is less than retailer's cost in Ireland!!)
    • Jessups net of UK VAT - €1,442
    • B&H net of New York State tax - €1,105

    Nikon D200 body –
    • Conns net of Irish VAT - €1,603
    • Gunns net of Irish VAT - €1,405
    • AC-foto net of German VAT - €1,465
    • Jessups net of UK VAT - €1,421
    • B&H net of New York State Tax - €1,341

    If we ignore Conns and use Gunns as the Irish market reference price then the variance for Canon is huge compared to Nikon!!!

    As a life long Canon fan ... I am starting to have second thoughts!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭eas


    If we ignore Conns and use Gunns as the Irish market reference price then the variance for Canon is huge compared to Nikon!!!

    If you look at it my way, that's not a good thing. Nikon are experiancing HUGE supply problems at the moment. When demand outstrips supply....we know what happens, prices stay high.

    As an example, the nikkor 18-200 VR has a waiting list of months for most shops. I looked and looked and could'nt find anywhere that had them in stock. I've had my name on at both Adorama and BnH for 8 weeks now, no word yet. The ebay (hong kong) prices are actually HIGHER than the local high street price.

    The D200 is the same thing to a lesser degree, huge demand/low supply.

    Anyhow, not trying to take away from the focus of the thread, just something to consider when making your comparisions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,356 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    the problem here is that you have to buy from canon ireland (united drug),which are sourced from canon u.k which inturn have bought the goods from germany etc... we're too far down the food chain to compete
    margins on cameras were i work are usually 10% or less though some things like fuji's are slightly better

    it's canons fault


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,332 ✭✭✭311


    UK Retailer
    I think Nikkon have stopped making film cameras ??
    Would it be not fair to consider the american market is so big ,that the logistics of shipping goods would cost a lot less.
    Maybe nikkons are overpriced in the american market.

    I cannot stand the high pricing of canon lenses ,there maybe more to their pricing than simply ripping people off though. Would I be right in saying that canon are heavily involved in the imaging industry ,wereas nikkon is not.Maybe canon could drop their prices a little ,but I wonder exactly how much it would be .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭Roen


    Voted non-European retailer. The only way to fly atm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭leinsterman


    rymus wrote:
    I wonder if they'll bother trying to justify it. If any satisfactory reply is given to the question I'll be amazed.

    Hi ... just a quick update on this.... Cathy from Gunns rang me today ... she had spoken to the Canon rep who was aware of my letter. The letter appears to have caused quite a stir. It seems that there are now plans by Canon Ireland to harmonise with their EU pricing. What this means in practice is as yet unclear (hopefully they will not be too stupid and raise it everywhere pushing even more money out of the EU) ... You can expect some country to country variation but not on the scale previously seen. Plus there are significant differences in VAT across the EU, Ireland being one of the higest.

    The bad news (at least for me) is this will not happen until the new year ...

    I have still no official response form Canon yet. When I receive it I will be sure to post it here.

    It is important we continue to encourage boards.ie photography posters to post their views in this thread and participate in the survey above. This information can be used later to demonstrate to Canon that they are losing business. I have to admit I am little dissappointed with the level of response thus far ... but here's hoping people will eventually get around to it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭masteroftherealm


    UK Retailer
    Sorry for not replying.
    Ive written a letter to the above address as I agree fully with you.
    I buy in ireland as much as I can but Im getting ripped off for doing so!


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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Other European Union Retailer
    I have to say well done for getting up and doing something about rip off prices.
    Eddie Hobbs award for you!
    I bought my 350d (with 18-55 and 55-200mm lenses) from amazon.co.uk as it was €400 cheaper. My next canon purchase will be the EF-S 60mm Macro which i saw in germany a few days ago for €380. I haven't even considered looking at prices here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 93 ✭✭GASUN


    Good campaign which must continue. However, having just purchased a Canon 70-200 IS f2.8L from USA (saved close to €1000) and now looking at Canon 5D ......

    .... will write the letter to them anyway to support what has been started.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭leinsterman


    GASUN wrote:
    Good campaign which must continue. However, having just purchased a Canon 70-200 IS f2.8L from USA (saved close to €1000) and now looking at Canon 5D ......

    .... will write the letter to them anyway to support what has been started.

    My letter is nearly two weeks old now and I still await a response. My next course of action is to go one more step up the chain ... but I need to find out who this person might be, probably someone from their European HQ ... I am beginning to think Canon just don't give damn ... after all they have our money now, why should they ? :mad:

    That D200 is looking to me to be a better way to invest my money!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭kjt


    UK Retailer
    Fairplay to everybody that's written to Canon about this.
    I'm thinking of getting a 350d also and I'd love to get it
    from Gunns as their a great store and SO helpful....but
    a few hundred euro in the difference doesnt leave much choice.

    I'll try make some time to write to Canon also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,356 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    but folks like i said above canon ireland is a very small branch on a very big tree,we're being fleeced before the camera's are even in the country!

    better off going straight to the source


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭Redundo


    Other European Union Retailer
    I've also had to buy my camera gear in from abroad. I say 'had to' because I simply could not afford to get involved in photography unless foreign markets had been available to me. To be quite honest I don't even buy film here in Ireland, it is just not worth it.

    While I do believe Canon should shoulder most of the blame on the price discrepancies, I also firmly believe that the government should share some of the blame too, tax adds quite a bit to the price we get charged. 16% in Germany, 17.5% in the UK and there VAT is exempt on orders under £18 - film, paper and print cartridges, etc. Why are we so different at 21%?

    We get done twice for buying within Ireland; first Canon ups the price, then the Government taxes the inflated price. Even if retailers were on break-even margins, we would still be charged more then most of our EU neighbours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,513 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Redundo wrote:
    16% in Germany, 17.5% in the UK and there VAT is exempt on orders under £18 - film, paper and print cartridges, etc. Why are we so different at 21%?
    FYI German VAT is going up to 19% soon. There's a big uproar about it there. Although our VAT rates are higher we pay less in income tax and social security payments than many other EU countries. Swings and roundabouts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,332 ✭✭✭311


    UK Retailer
    Leinsterman ,I'm glad this thread is here and is a sticky .It will come up in a search in google all the time and I'm sure canon knows of this thread.
    I completely agree with you ,I've no problem selling my stuff and going to nikon if thats what it takes also.
    With the addition of sony to the market and the excellence of Carl Zeiss glass I don't think canon can afford to treat punters like fools for much longer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭leinsterman


    Hi,

    Having not received a response from Canon yet I have decided to escalate the campaign a little.

    What I have done is written to as many of the camera clubs around the country as I can to ask them to encourage their membership post here, write to canon and/or vote in the poll.

    So far I have received responses from Dublin, Arklow and Malahide.

    Please make sure you pass on the information about this thread and the campaign to as many others as you can. We need to show the guys at Canon Ireland that they are losing out by ignoring us.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭CONMIKE12


    Other European Union Retailer
    Well done leinsterman for getting the ball rolling on this one.When i decided a few months ago to get serious and buy a dslr,there was simply no way i could afford to buy in ireland and saved myself a few hundread euro by getting my 20d from Amazon.co.uk. I'm saving for lenses and the same thing applies,there's no way i can afford them here and it looks like Germany will be where i give my business.I wouldn't mind paying a little bit extra to buy in ireland,but the difference is too great to make that possible.Good luck with the campaign,hopefully when we all get behind it ,it might make some difference.


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