KK Live MTT

Bandana boy

Live €50 rebuy MTT about 20 left first 9 get something but really top 5 get paid

Have seen little action
Stack 6700 about average
Blinds 100-200 in mid postion i raise to 700 with KK
Both blinds call all else fold
flop JJ6 checked to me action ?

BrokenArrows

You will have to bet big with this hand. Checking will give you no information if one of the other players has a J and a smaller bet will only encourage somone with a smaller pair to call or re-raise.

mewso

It's not so much that you should bet to find the J as the J will surface on the turn most of the time regardless of whether you bet here or not.
I'm betting here because I probably have the best hand. Bad policy to assume the worst when in fact JJ on the flop reduces the likelihood of someone having another one. If someone does have a jack most standard players will call here then check-raise you on the turn so you may have the option of a free card on the turn.

Bandana boy

BrokenArrows wrote:

You will have to bet big with this hand. Checking will give you no information if one of the other players has a J and a smaller bet will only encourage somone with a smaller pair to call or re-raise.

2100 in Pot i have 6K
whats a big bet ?

So a small bet is the way to go then ?

Gholimoli

BrokenArrows wrote:

You will have to bet big with this hand. Checking will give you no information if one of the other players has a J and a smaller bet will only encourage somone with a smaller pair to call or re-raise.

betting big here is horrible,you will only get called by a hand that beats you and that it.
you should make a standard value bet of about half the pot.
also what wrong with some one with a smaller PP calling our bet when he is drawing to 2 outs with 2 cards to come?
if your bet gets called on any place and its checked to you on turn its often good to check behind.

Bandana boy

I agree a big bet here is awful
Half pot looks about right

anybody like a check ?

Gholimoli

Bandana boy wrote:

I agree a big bet here is awful
Half pot looks about right

anybody like a check ?

check is not good cuz your letting hands like QQ,TT,99,AK draw for free and not get anything from them but its better than betting big.

ChipLdr

A check i dont agree with because IF an A fell or the other guys made their set FOR FREE then thats a disaster.You're only being called here if you're miles behind or else miles ahead but most likely when you're behind and the turn is where you'll find out if there's an J out there.

Half the pot is fine here.

Bandana boy

So i check i think pot is pretty tasty to the blinds and i am hoping one of them will have a go on the turn

Turn 3rd j
Checked to me again
I bet 1K and Sb pushs for 4900k
I cover by 100 chips

mmmmm

Can/should i ever lay this down

Gholimoli

Bandana boy wrote:

So i check i think pot is pretty tasty to the blinds and i am hoping one of them will have a go on the turn

Turn 3rd j
Checked to me again
I bet 1K and Sb pushs for 4900k
I cover by 100 chips

mmmmm

Can/should i ever lay this down

never ,
his got 66 or if your UL AA .if he has the J there get up and punch him then say WP to him cuz i like push there with the J.
i dont think you can lay this down ever.

Hitman Actual

I only agree with a check if your opponents definately lay down worse hands here when you bet, and will more than likely put money in with worse hands on the turn i.e. take a stab at the pot. If you're ahead, then I think you're far enough ahead that giving a free card isn't a disaster. And I'd rather be up against one aggressive opponent. But in saying all that, I think I generally make a normal flop bet.

And I cant see how you can get away from this hand the way it plays out.

cardshark202

I see no problem with checking here, if it means the opponent will be more likely to go for his stack on blank turn.

EWheelChair

I probably would have made a bigger pre flop raise to begin with, its a tough call but i'd probably call anyway.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

I see no problem with checking here, if it means the opponent will be more likely to go for his stack on blank turn.

i dont think any one would go for a stack here with out the J or AA at least on that board.ppl would be scared of the JJ on the board no matter what.
so while they may call bets with QQ ,TT,99 they wont necessarily bet with them or get stacked. hats why betting is better than checking.

DeadParrot

Bandana boy wrote:

So i check i think pot is pretty tasty to the blinds and i am hoping one of them will have a go on the turn

Turn 3rd j
Checked to me again
I bet 1K and Sb pushs for 4900k
I cover by 100 chips

mmmmm

Can/should i ever lay this down

A-high from the pusher, I'd nearly swear on it, maybe a-6.
if he had the Jack, why push the BB is next to act might get a loose 1k call from him and if he has the j he should be in no hurry. looks a scared Ace high push the more I think of it, maybe a mid pp

ianmc38

We are better checking this flop. We save chips against Jx and extract more from lesser holdings. This is a bad flop for KK and betting because we assume or hope to still have the best hand is wrong.

Bandana boy

So BB folds obv
And it is up to me
I might have folded this kind of action on flop but feel with 3rd nuts on turn i should be stronger than most hands and what kind of player gives me such a tough decision with a J
So i call
It turns out indeed to be a QJ and wp sb i now have half a blind

not sure i like how he plays it because any hand weaker than AA KK QQ really struggles to call here where i think slow played might get some action from TT-55

ianmc38

And that is why betting the flop is bad (not results oriented thinking! This is a classic place to check the flop).

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

We are better checking this flop. We save chips against Jx and extract more from lesser holdings. This is a bad flop for KK and betting because we assume or hope to still have the best hand is wrong.

this is not a bad flop for KK at all.
would you rather see this flop or QJx.
checking will not extract anything from any one as ppl that would call bets on this flop (such as AK,AQ,QQ,TT,99) would never bet this flop.so if you check and the hand gets checked down then your losing value v thoes hands .
we should assume that there is still a decent chance that we do have the best hand and its not wrong to think that way.

ianmc38

Calling range for most villains preflop here will be PPs and two broadways. Checking allows them to bluff with AK, AQ and bet wtih QQ, TT etc.
Betting allows them to fold AK and lesser holdings.
Checking is better. And this IS a bad flop for KK.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Calling range for most villains preflop here will be PPs and two broadways. Checking allows them to bluff with AK, AQ and bet wtih QQ, TT etc.
Betting allows them to fold AK and lesser holdings.
Checking is better. And this IS a bad flop for KK.

thats where your wrong,
who in their right mind is gonna bet this with TT,QQ.
the lower the PP the less reasons they have for betting this flop because not only they have the J to fear from but also the chances of an over pair.
the same with AK,why would AK when he has two over cards with two cards to come after his given a free chance to draw to it.
are you saying you would bet this with AK,TT,QQ here if checked to?
i agree with what your saying about the caling range being any PP or two broadway which is what makes it a good flop for KK.there is one broadway card there and one other low card making the chances of some one having a set or trips less likely than if it was a QJ6 flop .
this is NOT a bad flop for KK and your failing to give a reason why you think it is.

ianmc38

Meh bah poo.

DeVore

I cant believe people are giving such specific advice without a word as to what the players who are holding the opposing cards play like. If you are that close to the money, you must have SOME reads on them.
Frankly I find it boggling that people are not only laying down their own suggestions (fair enough) but criticising others... i dunno. What I do with this hands depends on my table image, their play patterns and their stacks.
*Probably* I dont check here but perhaps I bet the lot....

DeV.

Hectorjelly

this is actually a common situation in which the players involved dont matter a whole deal. The important feature of a J22r flop is that an overpair already has 2 pair, so its much harder for an unpaired hand to catch up. We have this discussion about twice a week; betting here for information is about as bad as its possible to play poker.

fuzzbox

Checking flop is fine, betting flop is ok too, people love to put you on AK when there is no A or K on the flop and they have 99 on a JJx flop.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

this is actually a common situation in which the players involved dont matter a whole deal. The important feature of a J22r flop is that an overpair already has 2 pair, so its much harder for an unpaired hand to catch up. We have this discussion about twice a week; betting here for information is about as bad as its possible to play poker.

your not betting for information your betting for value.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

your not betting for information your betting for value.

If you are betting it for information then its bad play, if your betting it because you think thats the best way to stack TT (or similar hand) then thats fine.