Where did Purgatory come from?

Medina

I am a Catholic but wonder about certain things.
I have always believed in Purgatory but just wondering, does anyone know where information about Purgatory came from?

Is it mentioned in the bible specifically.?

Did it come from a particular pope/vatican council?

Anyone know the history of the origins of Purgatory?

robindch

> where information about Purgatory came from?

To the best of my knowledge, the existence of Purgatory (from the same Latin root as 'purge') was declared a fact by some of the very early christian writers, though they didn't define very clearly what it was. The church in Rome formalized the idea a long time later, sometime in the early Middle ages, though their declaration upon the topic seems not to have cleared up much of the confusion about exactly what or where it is, or how precisely one gets in our out of there.

Many other religions have declared the existence of analogous spiritually purgative zones and my old friends, the Zoroastrians, never far away when a discussion turns to the distant roots of christianity, had a form of Purgatory too.

I'm sure a google will turrn as much info on the topic as you're prepared to read!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

Purgatory is not to be confused with Limbo which is said to be a spiritual state someway between Purgatory and Heaven, intended principally, I believe, for people who are said to have died in an indeterminate state of sin. Though, having said that, Limbo seems to have been largely discontinued as a mainstream topic of christianity in the places where it ever held sway.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote:

> where information about Purgatory came from?

To the best of my knowledge, the existence of Purgatory (from the same Latin root as 'purge') was declared a fact by some of the very early christian writers, though they didn't define very clearly what it was. The church in Rome formalized the idea a long time later, sometime in the early Middle ages, though their declaration upon the topic seems not to have cleared up much of the confusion about exactly what or where it is, or how precisely one gets in our out of there.

Many other religions have declared the existence of analogous spiritually purgative zones and my old friends, the Zoroastrians, never far away when a discussion turns to the distant roots of christianity, had a form of Purgatory too.

I'm sure a google will turrn as much info on the topic as you're prepared to read!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

Purgatory is not to be confused with Limbo which is said to be a spiritual state someway between Purgatory and Heaven, intended principally, I believe, for people who are said to have died in an indeterminate state of sin. Though, having said that, Limbo seems to have been largely discontinued as a mainstream topic of christianity in the places where it ever held sway.

Yeah they've gotten rid of limbo, only three more to go!

Pocari Sweat

stevejazzx wrote:

Yeah they've gotten rid of limbo, only three more to go!

It sounds like over the centuries, the auld popes and their henchmen, have knocked up all sorts of levels of dodgey sin bins.

I don't know what the bottom sin bin is, but it is probably the 7th circle of Hell or some such supposed basement to stop off at if ye have slagged off the pope or shagged his wife.

Next up would probably be the 6th circle and so on until you get to the basic Hell where you would get your bum burned every now and then but not have your eyes poked out indefinitely like in the other circles of Hell.

Maybe lower down you would have yer knob fed through a mincing machine and yer balls cracked between two bricks every two minutes, probably in the 6th or 7th circle.

If limbo was still around it would probably be just outside the gates of hell just down the road either a bit past purgatory or just before, depending how bad a person you was or if you were not christened as a wee fella and were told you can't go to heaven.

Up the road from limbo and purgatory, if they existed, would probably be the pearly gates of heaven and a safe pass is given to the non-heathens if they behave them selves, but they can get demoted if they are naughty, but they might just get a few years in purgatory etc, if they reform and get more saintly and then back to heaven and so on.

Its back down to hell for the really bad ones like lucifer, especially if you get up to being a saint and then say, call Mary a dirty aul' scrubber.

So from the 7th circle up to god's throne room, there would be about 10 or so levels depending on yer cheek and level of behaviour both in life and the afterlife, with a bit of swapping about depending on the good and bad behaviour, so behave yourselves.

I don't know where they put all the old souls after they banned limbo, they may have shoved them all over into purgatory until they decided what to do next, because that might get banned as well.

The other question is if yer a budda, would you have been shoved into limbo if you were not christened when limbo was about, and where will all the buddas go, now that limbo has gone?

Michael G

OK, ignore the tossers. The idea of purgatory is that when you and I die, we will need a bit of time to sort ourselves out, as it were. We will see ourselves clearly and see where we went wrong and what our shortcomings are. Purgatory, which basically means purification (and, before the tossers come in again, this is about our minds and souls, not sex), is a kind of pause while we perceive what we are really like and change ourselves so that we can go into God's presence and feel we belong there. This has always been what the Church taught.

In the meantime we should of course pray for the tossers.

Medina

Pocari Sweat please don't post again on this thread.

MichaelG, thanks for the info.
I already know what its supposed to be, I just don't know how it came about being part of faith, i don't recall anything in the bible referring to it so just wondering what started the whole idea?

BrianCalgary

Not exactly sure when it started. The church alludes to a passage in Maccabees where Judas Maccabeus prays for the souls of those non jews slain in battle. The church states that Judas had an understanding that the souls would be in purgatory doing their time to balance up the works in their lives.

The whole idea of purgatory is unbiblical but I'm sure was used extensively for the selling of indulgences. For a few dollars you can lessen Grannies time in purgatory.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

Not exactly sure when it started. The church alludes to a passage in Maccabees where Judas Maccabeus prays for the souls of those non jews slain in battle. The church states that Judas had an understanding that the souls would be in purgatory doing their time to balance up the works in their lives.

The whole idea of purgatory is unbiblical but I'm sure was used extensively for the selling of indulgences. For a few dollars you can lessen Grannies time in purgatory.

From the Apocrypha:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, "2,000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

Popularised, and made doctrine, by Pope Gregory the Great 593 AD - may have been a personal thing:

"Now, Saint Gregory tells us in his Dialogues that the monk died contrite and penitent and he, out of compassion for his soul, offered up thirty consecutive Masses. On the thirtieth day, Brother Justus appeared to one of his brothers and told him that he was delivered from Purgatory. The joy of the chastened monastery knew no bounds. And God was so pleased with the discipline and charity of his servant Gregory that we find the story preserved down to our own time in the well-known "Gregorian Masses," said on thirty consecutive days for the repose of the souls of the loved ones for whom we continue, to this day, to request them."

and

"his Dialogues, a book on the Lives of the Saints, is full of accounts of dreams and visions that various persons were said to have had of souls in Purgatory. Gregory, a man of keen critical judgement on many matters, was completely uncritical in his acceptance of these stories. A general belief in Purgatory was standard among Christians when he wrote; but his reliance on "ghost stories" to fill in the imaginative details gave the doctrine as held thereafter in Latin Christendom both a prominence and a coloring that it had not previously had, with results that many Christians, including adherents of the Pope, have thought regrettable."

Overall, it seems to have derived from pagan and Jewish antecedents. Its popularity would derive both from the way it softens the blow of Final Judgement, and simultaneously brings the reckoning forward to the date of death rather than the distant Judgement Day. It also allows a convenient outlet within the Church for what many anthropologists feel to be the core of religion - ancestor worship.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Medina

Hmmm this is getting very interesting..

Would I be right in saying then as a conclusion to what ye have just said that Purgatory was 'made up' for various ulterior motives?

robindch

> Purgatory was 'made up' for various ulterior motives?

I don't think I'd say that there were "ulterior" motives -- that would be to mistake evolution for design. It seems to me that it was rather an idea that somebody came up with (or copied from somewhere else, as above, from the Zoro's) which appealed to enough people that it caught on and spread. In time, it was accepted by a sufficient number of (powerful) people that it stopped being simply an optional component, and instead became an required part of the set of beliefs that a believer had to accept. The way that this has happened is quite similar to what happened with ideas like the virginity of Mary, the "Assumption" of Mary and many others.

The following website has a good solid summary of the history of the belief, and some of the logic which supports it:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory1.htm

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

Hmmm this is getting very interesting..

Would I be right in saying then as a conclusion to what ye have just said that Purgatory was 'made up' for various ulterior motives?

Depends on what the ulterior motives where. I imagine it came about because people just couldn't accept God's free gift of salvation, they wanted to do something to pay their sin debt. Purgatory was then devised as a place were one would spend time to pay off their sin debt.

The theology of purgatory makes Christ's redeeming act on the cross as unnecessary or potentially insufficient.

After time when the RC church was looking for ways to raise funds did it become an opportunity to cash in on people's fears and charge a 'donation' for a deceased loved one to have their penance in purgatory reduced.

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

After time when the RC church was looking for ways to raise funds did it become an opportunity to cash in on people's fears and charge a 'donation' for a deceased loved one to have their penance in purgatory reduced.

I don't understand something - correct me if I'm wrong - are you saying that the Church changed the core of the belief just because they needed money? Now, somehow - if that is true - that might happen 'cos people make mistakes, but why nobody refused not to believe in it if it was a fact that this was added to the base belief?

Furthermore, God said what He said. The core belief should be defined precisely leaving no room for any doubt. Now even after so many centuries people follow the Church (by believing in purgatory) and they disobey God, but obey the Church in things that were invented for example?

Now if you know that i.e. xyz was introduced/added/etc. in religion by somebody else and not by God, then why would you follow them in those invented things even if they are your mum, dad or you religious leaders? It would make sense that you obey the One who created you and your mum, dad and everybody else.

And what if, just what if, on the Judgement Day God calls you and asks you about you blindly following - eventhough you knew some parts of the belief were deliberately added by people - the religious leaders or similar? What is your excuse? I don't believe there is one.

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

I don't understand something - correct me if I'm wrong - are you saying that the Church changed the core of the belief just because they needed money? Now, somehow - if that is true - that might happen 'cos people make mistakes, but why nobody refused not to believe in it if it was a fact that this was added to the base belief?.

No first the belief based on a need for works to gain salvation and balancing the good with the bad. If the bad outwighs the good then purgatory. The RC church then was able to exploit the belief to sell indulgences.

babyvaio wrote:

Furthermore, God said what He said. The core belief should be defined precisely leaving no room for any doubt. Now even after so many centuries people follow the Church (by believing in purgatory) and they disobey God, but obey the Church in things that were invented for example?.

I think I agree with you here. The choice does come down to do we believe what a particular person or organisation tells us or what God tells us. I'm going with God because He is the ultimate authority.

babyvaio wrote:

Now if you know that i.e. xyz was introduced/added/etc. in religion by somebody else and not by God, then why would you follow them in those invented things even if they are your mum, dad or you religious leaders? It would make sense that you obey the One who created you and your mum, dad and everybody else.

Agreed, I don't follow the teachings of the RC church. It seems like you understand that I do. I try and test all claims to Biblical truth.

babyvaio wrote:

And what if, just what if, on the Judgement Day God calls you and asks you about you blindly following - eventhough you knew some parts of the belief were deliberately added by people - the religious leaders or similar? What is your excuse? I don't believe there is one.

Agreed. Everybody is responsible for their own soul. Adam tried to blame his sin on Eve, who in turn tried to blame it on the serpent. We all need to search for the truth with an open mind and heart. If so we will find it.

Michael G

Medina wrote:

I already know what its supposed to be, I just don't know how it came about being part of faith, i don't recall anything in the bible referring to it so just wondering what started the whole idea?

Brian Calgary is right in saying that the Church relies partly on Judas Maccabeus who "made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin". The Catechism of the Catholic Church (published 1994) says:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." [1030]

Since we all die imperfectly purified it applies to all of us. We can't buy Granny's way into heaven if she was the AntiChrist (in these days of equal opportunities and women's ordination she is as good a prospect for that as I am), because she has to "die in God's grace and friendship" to be in with a chance of salvation. We have to rely on God's willingness to find an excuse for her as well as the rest of us.

stevejazzx

Medina wrote:

Hmmm this is getting very interesting..

Would I be right in saying then as a conclusion to what ye have just said that Purgatory was 'made up' for various ulterior motives?

Yeah Purgatory is an idea, again a human idea.

Medina

Well put point Babyvaio and one definitely worth considering.

Michael G, while I am a Catholic, and I want to believe that everything the Church tells us is true, I struggle sometimes when it appears that there is inconsistency, In fairness, Jesus never (to my knowledge) mentioned 'Purgatory' or a place where we would all be purified before we enter Heaven. I would be looking in the Gospels for that and not in say the Acts of the Apostles or in Revealations as those texts came about after Jesus left this earth.


Brian Calgary, I would be interested to know what branch of Christianity you follow? And what do you think is the core of the belief then which to you is beyond doubt..(and not completely reliant on faith either).

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

Agreed, I don't follow the teachings of the RC church. It seems like you understand that I do. I try and test all claims to Biblical truth.

I agree with you zillion percent that people should not be following their religious leaders if for example leaders say AAA and everybody knows God had said BBB. Who created who? Certainly no leader created a single thing. And yet, God had created them all. No need to ask the question who has the ultimate authority I suppose...

Now a tricky statement would be this - if I'm blindly following my religious leaders, and I don't care if that is the Pope himself (and I know at the same time that I'm following them in things that they invented and God never mentioned them), then it appers to me that I actually am worshipping the Pope and/or my religious leaders and not God, for they're are claiming that certain thing is from God, but we know it's not? ~(the word worshipping can be read as bowing)

Again I see no real excuse to do so if I have evidence that there is contradiction in what God had said and what people claim. Lots of people nowadays are blindly following their respective religious leaders (in all religions) and they have no excuse to do so.

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

Brian Calgary, I would be interested to know what branch of Christianity you follow? And what do you think is the core of the belief then which to you is beyond doubt..(and not completely reliant on faith either).

I attend a Christian and Missionary Alliance church in Calgary. The dogmas (things that are not debatable) would include: the deity of Christ, being one with the Father and Holy Spirit (trinity); Christ's death and resurrection for the atonement of our sin; virgin birth; inerrant authority of the Bible; that Christ is the only way to the Father.

That about sums it up. Although I may have missed something.

panda100

Medina wrote:

Michael G, while I am a Catholic, and I want to believe that everything the Church tells us is true, I struggle sometimes when it appears that there is inconsistency, In fairness, Jesus never (to my knowledge) mentioned 'Purgatory' or a place where we would all be purified before we enter Heaven. .

It good for you to question what the rc church says.I am just like you a Catholic wanting to believe but struggling against inconsistencies.
While a lot of the answers on this thread have been well researched and scholarly based I want to give my experiences with purgatory.
My cousin died from an epileptic fit in her sleep when she was 22 about 5 years ago.My family is your fairly typical big Irish catholic family and my granny and grandad would have been very very holy.Most of my cousins like me would go to mass and pray but wouldnt be the most dedicated catholic,just typical of our generation. Anyway,two of my cousins (the sister and brother of the girl that died,one lives in New york the other in Longford) both had a dream the same night in which my cousin said she had been in a dark cloudy place for a long time (purgatory) but now she was happy in heaven and they had nothing else to worry about.
Ive never believed in purgatory until I heared this cos my cousins are pretty sane and wouldnt make it up.
Im still not to sure if i belive in it or I and they have been brainwashed by the rc church for so long that we are starting to beleive the hype.

One of the visionaries in medjugoire claims to have been to purgatory and this is what she claims it to be like.I found this quite intresting.The visionaries have been examined numerous times and there is nothing psychiatrically wrong with them.
http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/purgatorymessages.htm

Medina

panda100 wrote:

It good for you to question what the rc church says.I am just like you a Catholic wanting to believe but struggling against inconsistencies.
While a lot of the answers on this thread have been well researched and scholarly based I want to give my experiences with purgatory.
My cousin died from an epileptic fit in her sleep when she was 22 about 5 years ago.My family is your fairly typical big Irish catholic family and my granny and grandad would have been very very holy.Most of my cousins like me would go to mass and pray but wouldnt be the most dedicated catholic,just typical of our generation. Anyway,two of my cousins (the sister and brother of the girl that died,one lives in New york the other in Longford) both had a dream the same night in which my cousin said she had been in a dark cloudy place for a long time (purgatory) but now she was happy in heaven and they had nothing else to worry about.
Ive never believed in purgatory until I heared this cos my cousins are pretty sane and wouldnt make it up.
Im still not to sure if i belive in it or I and they have been brainwashed by the rc church for so long that we are starting to beleive the hype.

One of the visionaries in medjugoire claims to have been to purgatory and this is what she claims it to be like.I found this quite intresting.The visionaries have been examined numerous times and there is nothing psychiatrically wrong with them.
http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/purgatorymessages.htm

I read on the appraritions in medjugorje years ago, and had forgotten the message from Our Lady.

Can you tell me did you cousin when she appeared actually use the word 'Purgatory' or is that the conclusion you come to because Our Lady's description seems to match the dream?

I'm asking out of curiosity..please don't take the question any way other than sincere interest.

Medina

BrianCalgary wrote:

I attend a Christian and Missionary Alliance church in Calgary. The dogmas (things that are not debatable) would include: the deity of Christ, being one with the Father and Holy Spirit (trinity); Christ's death and resurrection for the atonement of our sin; virgin birth; inerrant authority of the Bible; that Christ is the only way to the Father.

That about sums it up. Although I may have missed something.

And do you believe in Purgatory? Or what is your view on the truth/falsehood of its existence?

panda100

Medina wrote:

I read on the appraritions in medjugorje years ago, and had forgotten the message from Our Lady.

Can you tell me did you cousin when she appeared actually use the word 'Purgatory' or is that the conclusion you come to because Our Lady's description seems to match the dream?

I'm asking out of curiosity..please don't take the question any way other than sincere interest.

Dont worry,ask away.I find it a really intresting topic as well cos the idea of limbo and purgatory seemed to have evolved from no where really.

She didnt use the word purgatory.All she said was that she was safe now.I suppose everyone presumed she meant she had gone from purgatory to heaven

Medina

It's troubling though.

If one didn't believe in the apparitions from Medjugorje, then in the Bible we have no mention of a place of being purged or cleansed before we go to Heaven?

I mean if mentions Hell so why not Purgatory?

metrovelvet

I recall learning that the Church invented purgatory in the middle ages because they need a place to put the prostitutes.

babyvaio

metrovelvet wrote:

I recall learning that the Church invented purgatory in the middle ages because they need a place to put the prostitutes.

Could somebody say with certainty that the whole Purgatory thing was invented/made up by the Church having no proofs that it actually exists? :eek:

Medina

babyvaio wrote:

Could somebody say with certainty that the whole Purgatory thing was invented/made up by the Church having no proofs that it actually exists? :eek:

Nobody will say that except people who don't believe in it. Catholics some of us are confused and people take different sources as 'proofs'. Whats a proof to you might not be a proof to me. Faith is what makes the difference.

panda100

Obviously nothing in religon will be 100% certain but it really does seem that purgatory is pretty much a man-made catholic idea

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

And do you believe in Purgatory? Or what is your view on the truth/falsehood of its existence?

No. Jesus gave Himself on the cross in order to take our sin so that we may be forgiven and get back into full relationship with God.

Purgatory suggests that for the sins not forgiven you can spend time in purgatory as a second chance. This equates to Christ's actions as being insufficient, which kills His purpose.

Ephesians 2:8
You are saved by the grace of God through faith and you aren't saved by works lest anyone should boast.

Purgatory suggests a salvation by works which goes against biblical truth.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Nobody will say that except people who don't believe in it. Catholics some of us are confused and people take different sources as 'proofs'. Whats a proof to you might not be a proof to me. Faith is what makes the difference.

Faith is faith - fair enough. Faith usually is different among the people. However, if you're a Catholic for instance, wouldn't you be interested what the official Church have to say on this subject?

Wouldn't you be interested if this particular subject of the faith has no evidence in the Bible or even worse - if official Church admited that they made this up then and then for these and those reasons?

If that is the case and if I was a Catholic, I would certainly started doubting many of other basics of the faith. And I certainly would not blindly follow anybody, especially if they admited that they invented something in religion.

Michael G

Medina wrote:

Well put point Babyvaio and one definitely worth considering.Michael G, while I am a Catholic, and I want to believe that everything the Church tells us is true, I struggle sometimes when it appears that there is inconsistency, In fairness, Jesus never (to my knowledge) mentioned 'Purgatory' or a place where we would all be purified before we enter Heaven. I would be looking in the Gospels for that and not in say the Acts of the Apostles or in Revealations as those texts came about after Jesus left this earth.

St John at the end of his Gospel says, There are many more things that Jesus did, but there isn't time to tell you all of them. He also tells how Jesus gave his apostles to power to free or loose things on earth and in Heaven. Then John tells how Jesus promised that he would send his Holy Spirit to guide his Church. Finally, he tells how Jesus gave Peter the power and duty to lead it. Catholics believe that the Pope is the successor of Peter and the apostles and that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, is Christ's own Church. Therefore the Church, authorised by Jesus, interprets what Jesus said including the things he said that no-one, including St John, had time to write down. It is a mistake, especially for a Catholic, to think that all we have to go on is what was actually written down in the Gospels.

Scofflaw

Michael G wrote:

St John at the end of his Gospel says, There are many more things that Jesus did, but there isn't time to tell you all of them. He also tells how Jesus gave his apostles to power to free or loose things on earth and in Heaven. Then John tells how Jesus promised that he would send his Holy Spirit to guide his Church. Finally, he tells how Jesus gave Peter the power and duty to lead it. Catholics believe that the Pope is the successor of Peter and the apostles and that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, is Christ's own Church. Therefore the Church, authorised by Jesus, interprets what Jesus said including the things he said that no-one, including St John, had time to write down. It is a mistake, especially for a Catholic, to think that all we have to go on is what was actually written down in the Gospels.

Good point, although there are many bibliolaters here that will dispute it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Medina

Hi sorry I couldn't reply I got banned there for a while

Brian Calgary would you mind explaining how in your belief sins are forgiven?

What does the sinner need to do?

Also , I checked the official Vatican website to see if I could find explanations of the many questions I have.

I'm afraid it was very disappointing, there was barely any information available, no forums for questions from Christians, not even a PDF version of the bible. I have to say, I'm losing faith fast in the Church (not necessarily in Christianity).

BrianCalgary

Medina wrote:

Hi sorry I couldn't reply I got banned there for a while

Brian Calgary would you mind explaining how in your belief sins are forgiven?

What does the sinner need to do?

Also , I checked the official Vatican website to see if I could find explanations of the many questions I have.

I'm afraid it was very disappointing, there was barely any information available, no forums for questions from Christians, not even a PDF version of the bible. I have to say, I'm losing faith fast in the Church (not necessarily in Christianity).

The sinner has one thing to do and that is accept Christ as savior by asking Him for forgiveness of your sin.

Ephesians 2:7-9
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Once you have placed your faith in Christ then I like James 2:26
'faith without works is dead.

I find that I want nothing more than to serve God in using the gifts He has given me to further His kingdom.

Without ranting, Jesus has already paid for your sin, He did it on the cross. All you have to do is accept His free gift.

T-1111111111111

BrianCalgary wrote:

The sinner has one thing to do and that is accept Christ as savior by asking Him for forgiveness of your sin.

Ask Jesus or ask The Creator of Jesus - what do you think?

BrianCalgary wrote:

Without ranting, Jesus has already paid for your sin, He did it on the cross. All you have to do is accept His free gift.

Many died on the cross so that particular death wouldn't be much tougher one, wouldn't you say? I don't imagine The Creator suffering, that's not my perfect God, that's blasphemy at least what you're saying....think, think and think again with the free gift you've got from God Who cannot suffer because He is Perfect and you might realise that God just cannot feel pain.

BrianCalgary

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Ask Jesus or ask The Creator of Jesus - what do you think?.

I would love to see just one quote from th eBible that says Jesus was created. I asked a devout JW to show me, and he can't. I'm not talking about His humanity here, I'm talking about His being.

T-1111111111111 wrote:

Many died on the cross so that particular death wouldn't be much tougher one, wouldn't you say? I don't imagine The Creator suffering, that's not my perfect God, that's blasphemy at least what you're saying....think, think and think again with the free gift you've got from God Who cannot suffer because He is Perfect and you might realise that God just cannot feel pain.

Yes many did die on the cross. As did Jesus. He felt the pain, He went through the beatings. He suffered hunger in the desert, He faced temptation direct from Satan Himself. Therefore God does feel pain. He feels pain whenever one person sins against Him. He feels the stab of rejection whenever someone rejects Him.

Or are you saying tah God just doesn't care?

Medina

I think there's a definite difference between caring and feeling pain. You can't equate not feeling pain to not caring.

God cares but I have often thought it unusual why God would put Jesus on earth. He could have used another Prophet.

After all if Jesus is the Son of God, or God or just Divine, well why would He eat? why would He pray to himself? If He eats, He has to defecate right?
Can you imagine God going to the toilet????

I'm just looking at the practicality of life here, and if Jesus as a man was Godly related. There's something about it that makes me uneasy when I think of the practical daily realities of being a human being.

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

I would love to see just one quote from th eBible that says Jesus was created. I asked a devout JW to show me, and he can't. I'm not talking about His humanity here, I'm talking about His being.

Alrite, I might give you a homework since you gave me one - now you open your Bible (or any other version of the Bible) and find me these 2 statements black on white:

- I Jesus, am you creator, I created Heavens & Earth, I am you God, so worship only me (in his own words I mean now)
- (and the basic, the very basic, the atomic thing of the belief which should be very clear to every single Christian out there no matter what's their branch of Christianity is to actually know who is their Lord, Creator, God) God consists of three: father, son and the holy spirit, this is your lord - three in one - so worship him (the Bible doesn't say it)

Why the whole Bible does not have these 2 explicit statements as such?
For any kitchen appliance you get a user's manual, but not when it comes to Almighty, you don't even know (by reading the Bible) who your Lord God is.

Why? Because none could explained the mystery of the trinity, not even a pope himself (assuming that the pope should know more about Christian core belief that any other human).

All you can give me are implicit statements - bits & pieces - that can lead to numerous different variations of explanations. Please do not say that a belief is just a belief, to know your Creator you actually need to grasp the basic knowledge about Him, but you don't have it - all you have is bits & pieces of something that cannot bring you to the definition of who your Creator actually is - is He one or three in one? Furthermore, if Jesus is God, why his name and status never show up in the Old Testament? If it does, please point me to the verse and I apologize for being ignorant. I would assume that because he was no more that honourable God's Prophet and not of a divine nature, wouldn't you?