Games and piracy in Russia

danielgosling

Wow,

I'm studying Russian in TCD and I just spent a year in Moscow from last September to just 1 week ago. I just want to describe and explain the situation over there when it comes to buying pc games. Well first of all if you have a problem with piracy then read no further as of the 15 plus games I bought there over the year not one was ligitimate but I bought them anyway as they are 250 roubles per copy. thats just 6 euro! I was a bit tentative at first as we are constantly warned about the lack and inconsistancy of quality with pirated goods yet I never found this to be true during my time there.
The most famous place to go in Moscow is definately the massive Garbooshka market which was near my university. When I made my way there for the first time I was prepared for a dodgy corner street full of temporary stalls. However the market is a massive, multi leveled warehouse..squeaky clean and extremially professional. It isn't just games that are sold there....washing machines,tvs,basically everything you could thing of needing! Super professional pc stores stood metres away from stalls full of rows of ripped off dvds,games and music. But they do such a good job of it! Nice colour photocopied covers and even the game dvds have the original graphic neatly printed on...so its only when you open the intall app up that you'll remark on the copy of Daemontools and folder named CRACK which gives it away that your dealing with some pirates with taste..haha.

Besides all of this its even more remarkable that they are openly getting away with all of this! Vendors openly admitted to me that they were low on supplies because they had a bunch of dvds in storage as they were tipped off on a police raid due the next week. And the general public you may ask? Come off it! They dont care and soon... I didnt either to tell you the truth. You do the maths....just think real games only in Russian for 700 (20 euro) or pirate games in English for 250 (6 approx). Yeah I though you'd agree.

Nothing is being done about this situation and nothing will ever BE done. The Russian public have zero quams about whats going on and absolutely no western company would ever have the balls to tell them otherwise. You see Russians aren't really afraid of an awful lot...especially any threat from foreigners. They have just been through too much to care about anything except doing exactly what they want...and they dont want to pay more than 6 euro for a pcgame. I mean even the actual real games are only 20! When I tell them that games here are 1800 they laugh heartedly and ask me where the pirate markets are. When I tell them we dont have that luxury they give me a bemused look..like they are thinking "the west is not the future" or some such and maybe they re right?

If you have any q's Ill be happy to answer them.

Retr0gamer

Piracy is rampant in Russia as well as other parts of East Europe and Asia. The police really can't do anything to stop it except the odd raid to make it look like they are making a difference. I know DVDs in areas that are rife with piracy are sold at around 8 euro with reduced special features so that they can actually compete with the pirated versions which are usually just as good quality. Games publishers should be doing the same thing. There's no point getting a game at full price since, 1. most people in these areas are quite poor and can't afford full price, 2. the DVDs and games are available at a fraction of the cost in their priated form and have the same quality, and 3. there is zero risk with buying pirated software/DVDs since it is so rife that it is basically 'tolerated' by the authorities.

L31mr0d

danielgosling wrote:

Wow,

I'm studying Russian in TCD and I just spent a year in Moscow from last September to just 1 week ago. I just want to describe and explain the situation over there when it comes to buying pc games. Well first of all if you have a problem with piracy then read no further as of the 15 plus games I bought there over the year not one was ligitimate but I bought them anyway as they are 250 roubles per copy.....

congratulations you are now part of the problem, its funny the amount of people who inadvertantly give their money to organised crime. It must make you feel good to think that the money you gave to these people might some day go to paying for someone to get their knees capped by the russian mafia, pay for drugs/arms to be smuggled to 3rd world countries. When you see terrorists bombing embassys and schools you can feel good in yourself that your money paid for the parts that made up that bomb. To be so naive as to think that all you are doing is buying a cheap game is sickening. What you are advocating is a hell of a lot more serious then somebody downloading warez for free where nobody profits, but to give your money over in support is pure ignorance.

Kazu

dont you have to be smart to go to TCD ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


yes why pay six euro for a game to fund russian mafia who traffic women and god knows what else


btw (hint) cabbages

amp

While technically the op is providing the location of warez, I think the distance to travel might be an issue. Also it is interesting to see the world from different places.

Shut your hinting mouth Kazu.

Kristok

To move on from the whiter than white argument that your indirectly "paying for someone to get their knees capped by the russian mafia" rubbish.

Yes your right the west is not the future its the past trying to hold onto its outdated model. Why pay for a big fancy box when all you want is the game inside that could have been printed and sold for 10 euro with a healty profit for everyone it just makes no sense. Piracy is forcing music, movie and in some respects the games industry to change its models and try to deliver something people want and not what they are being told they must have. Why pay for music in a shop when you can get it cheaper online, an option that is only available because piracy forced it upon the record industry. If it wasnt for piracy we would still be waiting months for most movies to be released here after they are finished showing in the states now they try to rush the releases to stop pirates selling them. The next gen consoles are gonig to at some point allow us to download games removing the cost the middle man from the products, something that only benefits companies like gamestop and costs us a fortune.

Eastern europe and asia dont understand why they should pay for these things at an inflated price its only our culture that allows corporations to get away with convincing us thats we have no choice but to do what they say. Eventually piracy will force a change that will save us all from spending hard earned money on padding we just dont need or want. The only person who gets hurt is the big corporate ceo's who wont have as much money to spend on private jets and million doller bonus'

L31mr0d

Listen, this is not a matter of being anti-capitalist, and I don't need to quote the plethora of articles about how video game piracy is linked to organised crime all over the planet. You are talking about "eastern europe and asia" like its the countries and governments who are selling these warez cheaper. Who do you think has the money to be mass reproducing games/dvds/CD and selling them on the open market. Like I said, there is a big difference between downloading warez for free, which will have the same impact as your earlier comment and paying for it illegally.

These organizations that sell games are the same ones that sell drugs and arms all over the planet, end of story. If you think what they are doing is a just cause and is done to benefit the rest of us rich westerners so we can all get cheaper games, then you are sadly mistaken.

KTRIC

One word for all those of you that grew up in the 80's - ATARI . The ledgendry games company was crippeled under the strain of piracy.

Trode

Kristok, I'm impressed. It's like you've collated all the traditional flaws in the pro-piracy argument into one masterful rant. Purely for the convenience of it, I salute you.

Kristok wrote:

Yes your right the west is not the future its the past trying to hold onto its outdated model. Why pay for a big fancy box when all you want is the game inside that could have been printed and sold for 10 euro with a healty profit for everyone it just makes no sense.

Flaw #1: "The physical materials involved (CDs, DVDs,boxes,paper for manuals) is cheap to produce, so the end product should be cheaper"
This only holds true if you believe the information contained has no value, so logically a blank CD in a plain black DVD case should costas much as a full game. Yet if this information holds no value, why download it all? True, it could be printed and sold for 10 euro, but not produced for sales of that amount. Or at least, not profitably. The company who made it have to cover the cost of, you know, actually making it as well as the cost of eeproduction/marketing/packaging etc.

Kristok wrote:

Piracy is forcing music, movie and in some respects the games industry to change its models and try to deliver something people want and not what they are being told they must have. Why pay for music in a shop when you can get it cheaper online, an option that is only available because piracy forced it upon the record industry. If it wasnt for piracy we would still be waiting months for most movies to be released here after they are finished showing in the states now they try to rush the releases to stop pirates selling them.

Flaw #2: "Piracy is great because it forces the industries involved to make changes I like"
Technically true, but not a defence. It's like saying "Joyriding is great because it leads to the improvement of car alarms". The changes you are talking about would have come about anyway, if there was a market demand for them. Corporations, big & evil or not, are in the business of making money. If they can do something new to make more money, they will.
Not all the adaptations to piracy are good. Just ask anyone who wants to put their Cd collection onto their MP3 player legally, or a song from iTunes onto a CD for their car. Now the technology employed to prevent this is undoubtedly mean, pernicious, unethical and utterly deplorable, but it's hard to argue it's a response to piracy.

Kristok wrote:

The next gen consoles are gonig to at some point allow us to download games removing the cost the middle man from the products, something that only benefits companies like gamestop and costs us a fortune.

Flaw #3: "Selling things in shops only benefits the retailer/middle man".
Erm, no. It also benefits the consumer, as they gain a commodity they desired for a price they deemed fair at the time. If they didn't deem it fair, they wouldn't/shouldn't have paid that price. There is nothing unfair about the exchange, as it is not a necessity that you own the item. You want it, but you don't want to pay the price. Why do you think you're entitled to own it, that the shop is denying you this right,or charging over the odds for it? You really think they'd continue to sell things at that price if noone bought it?

Kristok wrote:

Eastern europe and asia dont understand why they should pay for these things at an inflated price its only our culture that allows corporations to get away with convincing us thats we have no choice but to do what they say.

Yes, I've lost count of the amount of times a corporate suit held a gun to my head and demanded I purchase the latest release at full price. Funny that bargain bins, budget releases and compilations should exist then, given that we all buy every game the minute it comes out, because the big mean corporations told us to.

Kristok wrote:

Eventually piracy will force a change that will save us all from spending hard earned money on padding we just dont need or want. The only person who gets hurt is the big corporate ceo's who wont have as much money to spend on private jets and million doller bonus'

Flaw#4:"Piracy only hurts the billionaire CEOs"
In fairness, you can't argue with that. That said, if the man is talented enough to design, program,script,score,test,promote,package,produce and sell a game all by himself, he probably deserves to be rich. I mean, it's not as if there are hundreds of people below him who do the actual work of producing the game for not a lot of money, is it? Good thing there are no programmers,artists, writers, salesmen and factory workers slaving over creating a game, because if there were, they'd be the ones really getting shafted when their game doesn't sell due to piracy. While this theoretical CEO swans around in his jet, writes it off as another unprofitable venture and fires the guys involved.

Trode

K-TRIC wrote:

One word for all those of you that grew up in the 80's - ATARI . The ledgendry games company was crippeled under the strain of piracy.

Uh, Atari was crippled under the strain of producing acres of crap that nobody wanted to buy. They flooded the market with dire games, making people a lot more wary of buying any games. Market shrinks, Atari continue producing more and more stuff noone wants, market crash. It's why ET is the game famously buried in the desert and, not coincidentally, considered one of the worst games of all time.

KTRIC

Trode wrote:

Uh, Atari was crippled under the strain of producing acres of crap that nobody wanted to buy. They flooded the market with dire games, making people a lot more wary of buying any games. Market shrinks, Atari continue producing more and more stuff noone wants, market crash. It's why ET is the game famously buried in the desert and, not coincidentally, considered one of the worst games of all time.

*note to self*

Buy bread, milk and biscuits in Lidl on the way home
Put washing on
Don't argue with gamer nerds

Trode

K-TRIC wrote:

*note to self*

Buy bread, milk and biscuits in Lidl on the way home
Put washing on
Don't argue with gamer nerds

Haven't you heard? We're all sociopathic trained killers. Now stand still while I jump on your head for extra points.:D

jaggeh

jump on his head.....?

do it with a bit of flare, put a charge on his toilet seat so when he sits down it explodes.

Trode

jaggeh wrote:

jump on his head.....?

do it with a bit of flare, put a charge on his toilet seat so when he sits down it explodes.

...........
You've thought about this.

Fenian

These organizations that sell games are the same ones that sell drugs and arms all over the planet, end of story. If you think what they are doing is a just cause and is done to benefit the rest of us rich westerners so we can all get cheaper games, then you are sadly mistaken.

So it's ok for companies to manufacture arms and sell them to whom ever they wish, but it's not ok for the mafia to sell bootleg games?
Companies like Sig Sauer, Heckler & Koch and Colt do far more damage world wide than the mafia could ever wish to do.
It is not the mafia that supplies the world with arms, it's the western state owned arms manufacturing industries that are.

Back to the OP, I know what you're talking about danielgosling, when I was in Hong Kong it was much the same setup, massive shopping centres with every kind of software or hardware that you wanted. I bought a load of GBA games for 7 euro each, this is going back about 2 or 3 years.

Dont be at yourself

So it's ok for companies to manufacture arms and sell them to whom ever they wish, but it's not ok for the mafia to sell bootleg games?
Companies like Sig Sauer, Heckler & Koch and Colt do far more damage world wide than the mafia could ever wish to do.

I dont think anyone mentioned anything about arms manufacturers, really. The fact of the matter is is that when you buy a pirated game from these kind of places, your money is more than likely going into the pockets of organised crime, and irrespective of the fact that there may be bigger, badder organisations out there, that is A Bad Thing.

Zillah

Fenian wrote:

So it's ok for companies to manufacture arms and sell them to whom ever they wish, but it's not ok for the mafia to sell bootleg games?
Companies like Sig Sauer, Heckler & Koch and Colt do far more damage world wide than the mafia could ever wish to do.
It is not the mafia that supplies the world with arms, it's the western state owned arms manufacturing industries that are.

They're making them, its not like they're using them. I'm not defending arms producers, but you're painting it almost as if the Mafia are poor impressionable foreigners that went crazy and violent when the evil western corporations flooded their nations with guns.

danielgosling

Im quite impressed with all the replies to my post. I can see lodgic in all your views and please correct me if I'm wrong but Im the only person who has been in Russia and it's really important for you to understand just how people operate there. There's a reason why the spread of wealth there is so uneven. The vast majority of the people there are not ambitious in any way and are very willing to buy and let items pass through their hands that they know are illegal or connected with organised crime. For them the fact that they are getting it cheaper, whether it is a pcgame, a washing machine or a phonecard, and that they are economising more and making their hard lives a little easier is the over riding factor that removes all remorse or regret that one might have otherwise having just bought/handled illegal goods.They live hard and i mean it. Arriving there I soon had to get used to the fact that nearly all the beggars on the streets were old women.Just imagine your granny's pension is 30 dollars a month and that just to survive she has to resort to crime..albeit tolerated crime ranging from selling stolen flowers to illegal metro tickets. its shocking and thats just Moscow the centre of all wealth and power in Russia and the supposed bright light of Russia. I can tell you that life is much more liveable in the far east. I was in Siberia in may and in Ulan Ude, not far from Mongolia, and life seemed much more balanced and reasonable over there believe it or not.
So forget the ****ing corporations and organised crime people don't care in Russia. I was living there for a year and I sure as hell was not going to buy a full price game if i could get one cheaper regardless as to whether the big suits give a **** or not.And as to the Russia Mafia remark and women smuggling etc please if you're going to get that emotional back up your tears with facts or else you're just a lowly neo-con like Rumsfeld preaching that the soviets have non accustic submarines! Yes the mafia exist in Russia and to distribute 1000's of dvds does take some serious infrastructure but honestly, like every Russian you'd meet in the street, I honestly never thought about it until right now. Please respond but remember tears+facts L31mr0d.

Dont be at yourself

An old woman selling forged metro tickets so she can make a wage is one thing, but a Trinity student picking up some games on his year abroad cant really be compared, or excused, can it?

jaggeh

being a trinity student is bad enough.......

Trode

danielgosling wrote:

Im quite impressed with all the replies to my post. I can see lodgic in all your views and please correct me if I'm wrong but Im the only person who has been in Russia and it's really important for you to understand just how people operate there. There's a reason why the spread of wealth there is so uneven. The vast majority of the people there are not ambitious in any way and are very willing to buy and let items pass through their hands that they know are illegal or connected with organised crime. For them the fact that they are getting it cheaper, whether it is a pcgame, a washing machine or a phonecard, and that they are economising more and making their hard lives a little easier is the over riding factor that removes all remorse or regret that one might have otherwise having just bought/handled illegal goods.

You know, I'd bet a good deal of this inequality and poverty is down to the
rich criminals you're so fond of. In fact, arguing, essentially, that they're poor because they're lazy and criminal is classic neo-conservatism. Certainly more so than some nonsense about submarines you accuse another poster of imitating.

So forget the ****ing corporations and organised crime people don't care in Russia. I was living there for a year and I sure as hell was not going to buy a full price game if i could get one cheaper regardless as to whether the big suits give a **** or not.And as to the Russia Mafia remark and women smuggling etc please if you're going to get that emotional back up your tears with facts or else you're just a lowly neo-con like Rumsfeld preaching that the soviets have non accustic submarines! Yes the mafia exist in Russia and to distribute 1000's of dvds does take some serious infrastructure but honestly, like every Russian you'd meet in the street, I honestly never thought about it until right now. Please respond but remember tears+facts L31mr0d.

I have no idea what the submarine thing is about, and despite the fact that it strains credulity that you could not know or believe that the Russian mob is involved in people trafficing or counterfeiting, here are your facts:
http://www.catwinternational.org/factbook/Russia.php
http://www.allianceagainstiptheft.co.uk/news/archivearticle.html?id=34
although I suspect your rebuttal will still be "I didn't and don't want to think about it".

As for the "Screw the corporate suits!" stuff, I reiterate:

trode wrote:

It's not as if there are hundreds of people below him who do the actual work of producing the game for not a lot of money, is it? Good thing there are no programmers,artists, writers, salesmen and factory workers slaving over creating a game, because if there were, they'd be the ones really getting shafted when their game doesn't sell due to piracy. While this theoretical CEO swans around in his jet, writes it off as another unprofitable venture and fires the guys involved.

For every "corporate suit" mildly irked by the self-righteous thievery of you and others like you, dozens of average wage-slaves like you and...well, like me get serious hassle or lose their jobs. Still, enjoy your cheap PC games, safe in the knowledge that not one cent of it is going to people who need or deserve it, but to people who would do much worse thing to your dear old grandmother than put her on the street begging.

jesus_thats_gre

Was in Russia a few times with the first time being about 12 years ago.. Very strange place indeed with the markets being the stangest of all. You can buy any copyrighted item for next to nothing and I mean anything.

I will never forget the non-refrigerated meet counters in 30 degree sunshine though.

L31mr0d

danielgosling wrote:

Please respond but remember tears+facts L31mr0d.

Hi, Daniel Gosling is it?

Are you serious? I thought you had to have some kind of brains to get into Trinity? Do I really need to baby feed you the "facts" about piracy and organised crime. If I said "the sun will rise tomorrow", would you like me to get astronomical data about stars and planatary orbits to prove it to you?

Just do a search (do you know how to do that? try google.com) for piracy russia games mafia... whatever. I'm simply stating a FACT, I don't need to back it up with any because that is what it is?

Your ignorence is scary, HOW THE HELL COULD YOU NOT THINK ABOUT IT??? The people in Russia have grown up with organised crime. You haven't, and you certainly aren't so poor that you NEEDED to buy these games. PLUS, you can get them for free, which is bad in itself but at least you're not giving over you money to support them.

Tell me, if you knew a bunch of racists, pedophiles and rapists got together and opened up a warehouse selling cheap games, would you be first in line?

Kristok

L31mr0d wrote:

Tell me, if you knew a bunch of racists, pedophiles and rapists got together and opened up a warehouse selling cheap games, would you be first in line?

Wow your really worked up about this whole thing you should really chill out he bought a game his contribution at most was a few euro not enough to buy a bottle of vodka for the mafia, thats if the person he bought it from was even connected to them which there is no reason to believe they where.

zAbbo

I'd only pirate EA games, in the hope it may cripple them.

Piracy rules, unless you need an working key

L31mr0d

Kristok wrote:

Wow your really worked up about this whole thing you should really chill out he bought a game his contribution at most was a few euro not enough to buy a bottle of vodka for the mafia, thats if the person he bought it from was even connected to them which there is no reason to believe they where.

Just to be clear, I have NO problem with piracy where nobody profits. If he had said he had found a website where you could download games for nothing i'd of had no problem. But we are bandying around the term "mafia" like they are some innocent organsization, you should be just as shocked to support the mafia as any of the other kind of people I mentioned. It doesn't matter how much money he gave, whether it be a euro or 100. By giving them his money, he was saying "I agree with what you are doing, and I support you to continue doing this and spend my money however you feel fit".

Its your dismissal and ignorence of the implications that is worrying, so he only spent a couple of euro? Say a few thousand students from abroad travel to russia and spend a couple of euros in this warehouse, say there are 50 or 60 of these warehouses with the same traffic? You do the math. If you are going to be so blasé about a single persons choice and impact then there is no point discussing this with you anymore, you clearly can't see the bigger picture.

Kristok

L31mr0d wrote:

By giving them his money, he was saying "I agree with what you are doing, and I support you to continue doing this and spend my money however you feel fit".

No he is saying the game is cheaper and in russia its not going to get him in trouble buying it.

L31mr0d wrote:

Its your dismissal and ignorence of the implications that is worrying, so he only spent a couple of euro? Say a few thousand students from abroad travel to russia and spend a couple of euros in this warehouse, say there are 50 or 60 of these warehouses with the same traffic? You do the math. If you are going to be so blasé about a single persons choice and impact then there is no point discussing this with you anymore, you clearly can't see the bigger picture.

A few thousand students is only a drop in the water of the millions of Russians who do it anyway and any moral qualms you might have are not even a consideration to them.

Anyway your assuming everyone selling games (or music/movies) is doing it through the mob. All anyone needs is a computer and they can manufacture saleable products.

danielgosling

Hi again.

Cheers for the Trinity remark. Like I care. Judging a person by which county he comes from or where he studies just seems a tad closed minded. There are plenty of stupid people in Trinity haha.

Wow I guess my frankness must of rattled you L31mr0d. You really love the idea that the Russian Mafia an organisation which is very over hyped has its fingers in every pie... I mean very few of them are even from Russia! They're all Armenian or Georgian immigrants and I find it hard to believe that the games I bought in the Garbooshka market had anything to do with them. As I said before if you are enterprising in Russia you become rich...its that simple. People there are quite lazy in this regard and theres massive amounts of market potential if you just get up off your arse. Thing is that the fastest way to get round the horrible Russian beaurocracy is to go black market...and the great thing is that its barely policed. I believe that the people behind the games piracy in Moscow are not the Mafia. The fact is that anyone might think of breaking the law if they think they'll get away with it and in Russias case that means alot of the population.

You must really believe that the stall I bought my games from out of all the hundreds of games stalls in the market was supplied by the Mafia. My conscience is clear. Please rant again. I find your posts good reading. Oh and as we're intimate let me recommend you to play Dreamfall which is one of said bought games.kisses.

ArphaRima

but Im the only person who has been in Russia

Are you eh?! Thats a hell of a bold claim.

I've been in plenty of poor countries. They simply cannot afford to buy microsoft ANYTHING. They cannot afford to buy Music, DVD's, games, or any other item at the prices the retailers offer. In fact where I live I have never seen a legitimate DVD or music vendor.

And the mafia have NOTHING to do with the sale of said DVD's. Only the police's willingness to allow it to continue. And they have to. It is not in the country's interest to have a population unable to use MS Windows. In fact it is not in Microsofts interest either. That is the reason MS update hasnt been used to shut down every counterfeit copy worldwide. Microsoft would much prefer to have people use counterfeit software than their competitors software. Market share is enough -whether profitable or not.

I use and purchase counterfeit goods regularly. I do understand economics. I know I must pay a reasonable price for goods. But I feel Europe gets hard done by on that front. In China OFFICIAL new release DVD's are sold for 3-6 dollars in HIGHER quality packaging than an Irish copy selling for 35 euro. The reason: piracy. This means it is economically viable to sell at that price. Now tell me why it costs 35 euro in Ireland. Even PC games sell for cheaper. they sell for 25 dollars in Singapore (a rich country, but again in asia). As opposed to 60 euro at home. Explain it. Piracy is forcing competitiveness on an industry used to relative monopoly and price fixing.

monument

L31mr0d wrote:

Just do a search (do you know how to do that? try google.com) for piracy russia games mafia... whatever. I'm simply stating a FACT, I don't need to back it up with any because that is what it is?

You saying that something is a "FACT" does not make it such. If you dont back something up it's just your opnion, just as good as any other poster's opnion.


And while I’m at it, here’s a generally comment for everyone – keep it civil.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

it seems that most sites on the internet from which illegal information can be obtained (warez etc.) come from the .ru domain
Not that i'd know of course

Trode

I still can't believe people are refusing to accept this, but facts anyone?

L31mr0d

Trode wrote:

I still can't believe people are refusing to accept this, but facts anyone?

Thanks Trode, but this clearly is a case of Ignornence is Bliss, you could show these people the actual blood on the hands of the people who recieve this money and people like DanielGosling, fluffer and Kristok would still go out and buy their counterfeit goods muttering to themselves "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". They want cheap illegal goods and they will reason anything to try and wash their conscience clean of who they are supporting, and how organised crime will eventually be the saviours of us rich westerners.

So what if it is a lone stallsman selling warez, again you are failing to see the bigger picture. You can't FOR DEFINITE tell me that that man you bought from wasn't involved with the mafia, neither can I, but I am making a logical conclusion based on facts about piracy, russia and organised crime (and monument, I have no intention of producing an appendix of references, Trode has given links already which have clearly been dismissed under the same muttering as mentioned) what are your conclusions based on Daniel?

danielgosling

Thanks for the link. I read alot of it and please correct me if im wrong but I saw no mention of the mafia. There was however several paragraphs about well organized syndicates who are responsible for most of the Russian piracy but the word mafia was not used once. I particularily found the 13th paragraph of the section called "Optical Media Production Grows" interesting. This does confirm that well organized and managed groups are responsible but again Mafia is a word that does not come up once. I mean I hope I'm not confused. Is the mafia the word used today for all organized crime? Because if that is so then this debate needs to start over. Otherwise lets focus on the fact that not all criminals are blood thirsty thugs who want to rip off games and also engage in people trafficking and drugs. Im not supporting crime I'm just saying that just because a group is well organized in its illegal dealings doesn't make them little godfathers...or does it L31mr0d?

awhir

danielgosling wrote:

Thanks for the link. I read alot of it and please correct me if im wrong but I saw no mention of the mafia. There was however several paragraphs about well organized syndicates who are responsible for most of the Russian piracy but the word mafia was not used once. I particularily found the 13th paragraph of the section called "Optical Media Production Grows" interesting. This does confirm that well organized and managed groups are responsible but again Mafia is a word that does not come up once. I mean I hope I'm not confused. Is the mafia the word used today for all organized crime? Because if that is so then this debate needs to start over. Otherwise lets focus on the fact that not all criminals are blood thirsty thugs who want to rip off games and also engage in people trafficking and drugs. Im not supporting crime I'm just saying that just because a group is well organized in its illegal dealings doesn't make them little godfathers...or does it L31mr0d?

im with you man i like debates

ArphaRima

you could show these people the actual blood on the hands of the people who recieve this money

Im sorry. I didnt know I was supporting murderers. I will cease and desist immediately.
For gods sake. The shops I speak of flood entire districts in Vietnamese cities. They are called software districts. You cant buy legit software. Its all downloaded, burnt onto a cd and sold over the counter. You leaf through a book, write down the code of the software and they scurry off to get it for you. From retail shop in malaysia, to internet, to pirated shop in Vietnam, I cannot see where I could possibly see "the actual blood on the hands". See my 1st post.

Trode

danielgosling wrote:

Thanks for the link. I read alot of it and please correct me if im wrong but I saw no mention of the mafia. There was however several paragraphs about well organized syndicates who are responsible for most of the Russian piracy but the word mafia was not used once. I particularily found the 13th paragraph of the section called "Optical Media Production Grows" interesting. This does confirm that well organized and managed groups are responsible but again Mafia is a word that does not come up once. I mean I hope I'm not confused. Is the mafia the word used today for all organized crime? Because if that is so then this debate needs to start over. Otherwise lets focus on the fact that not all criminals are blood thirsty thugs who want to rip off games and also engage in people trafficking and drugs. Im not supporting crime I'm just saying that just because a group is well organized in its illegal dealings doesn't make them little godfathers...or does it L31mr0d?

It does in fact mention the mafia

Anti-piracy actions targeted
at the Russian Mafia could boost government and public confidence that economic crime can be dealt with.

Now, why would they target them if they're not involved?

Not that it's not a little intellectually dishonest to draw a distinction between

organized criminal syndicates that control much of the pirate market in Russia

particularly ones who are known to

routinely threaten legitimate game publishers.

, and "Russian mafia" anyway.
What exactly is your personal definition of mafia? Italian guys in suits and fedoras?

K.O.Kiki

Mmm... I love the smell of ignorance in the morning!

Kristok

Got something to add then do so otherwise stop flaming, while i dont agree what some people are saying at least they are trying to say something.

danielgosling

I wrote the post originally because I thought people would be interested in the situation over in Russia as games here are so expensive. But now I am defending the right to buy these pirated games for some reason?! I don't think crime groups that get the label mafia have to fit the movie image but I do think they are much more likely to be brutal, uncompromising and willing to make money from very shady areas such as people trafficking and drugs. Yes in the problem of combating illegal crime the mafia and every other gang are in the same catagory, it's just that doesnt mean that buying pirated software off a group who rip off games means that you're automatically supporting the mafia's dealings. I readily admit that what I did by buying these games was not the perfect thing to do but I'll also admit that if EMI and all their rich pals would support their artists more and sell albums for a more resonable price like say 10 euro then I probably never would buy pirate goods.period. I just don't like when people rant and get unreasonable when there's no need. yes what i did was not very good but in my mind I dont view myself as a criminal. Yes my money is going to criminals but please dont attack me and say I'm supporting people being killed. When i was in Russia everyone I was with Russian or not had no problem buying these games etc. We saw only that they were cheaper and still were great quality so we smiled and bought them. Call us stupidly ignorant but we only saw the better economics. Im not a bit guilty really.

amp

I'd like to know why you posted the exact same thread in the Games Review forum.

danielgosling

Sorry I first posted it in the wrong forum and just assumed that it would get deleted.

L31mr0d

danielgosling wrote:

....I readily admit that what I did by buying these games was not the perfect thing to do but I'll also admit that if EMI and all their rich pals would support their artists more and sell albums for a more resonable price like say 10 euro then I probably never would buy pirate goods.period. I just don't like when people rant and get unreasonable when there's no need. yes what i did was not very good but in my mind I dont view myself as a criminal. Yes my money is going to criminals but please dont attack me and say I'm supporting people being killed. When i was in Russia everyone I was with Russian or not had no problem buying these games etc. We saw only that they were cheaper and still were great quality so we smiled and bought them. Call us stupidly ignorant but we only saw the better economics. Im not a bit guilty really.

Would you view yourself as a criminal if you had gone to a warehouse and bought a car you knew had been stolen but had been resprayed and its plates changed? Buying warez is the same thing. How much money would you have to hand over before your conscience would twinge. How much money is supporting criminals? Whether it just be organised crime, or the mafia, why give them your money? why take the chance that your money is going to be in anyway used to traffic drugs, or any of the other undesirable traits of these people.

Sure your money might just go to producing more counterfeit games but it also might go towards buying the bullets for a criminals gun, you don't know. But in giving your money to that criminal you've allowed him to do with it as he sees fit, you've supported his way of life.

Ignorence is no excuse, and pretending to "do as the romans" isn't either. You're not Russian, you, at least, have perspective, and knew what you where doing was wrong. Just because the Russians around you grew up in this environment, does not mean you did nor should of accepted it. It comes down to a student on a strapped budget wanting to play a few games on the cheap, and i'm sure if EMI started selling albums for €10, you'd probably still be at the warez stand buying it for €1 for "better economics" and i'm sure the next time you go back to Russia you'll be at the same stall again buying the latest ripoffs, not seeing the wood for the trees in ignorent bliss.

Kristok

L31mr0d wrote:

Would you view yourself as a criminal if you had gone to a warehouse and bought a car you knew had been stolen but had been resprayed and its plates changed? Buying warez is the same thing.

Oh yea the exact same thing :rolleyes:

ArphaRima

I like the way my argument was completely ignored. Convenient.

Trode

fluffer wrote:

I like the way my argument was completely ignored. Convenient.

In Communist Russia, arguments ignore you!

Sorry, I've wanted to do that all thread.

Seriously, your arguments, as far as I can tell, boil down to 'Companies can afford the cost of piracy', citing MS (who do have a pattern of willingly taking financial hits in order to secure market share, see Internet Explorer) and unnamed DVD distributors. If that's a defence of piracy in general,it's shaky, and if somehow your repeated, yet unsubstantiated, claims that piracy has nothing to do with organised crime are to be taken as a rebuttal point, there's very little arguing against it to be done.

Cuddlesworth

Trode wrote:

Seriously, your arguments, as far as I can tell, boil down to 'Companies can afford the cost of piracy',

They can but only for one reason, they pass the cost in lost revenue onto the consumer who is willing to pay for the game. Its all part of the budget, the only difference is Music companys who refuse to pass on any savings onto the consumer for so many years(look into the cost of manufacturing cds in a 20 year span compared to average album prices). But for most other industrys the people who lose are the legit consumers and the makers. The big publishing companys lose nothing.

jesus_thats_gre

The introduction of CDs and DVDs are the perfect example..

When CD was originally touted as a format, one of the primary benefits was that it was considerably cheaper to manufacture than tape. The same applied to DVDs over VHS tapes.

Dispite that, you had the the situation whereby CDs and tapes were being sold alongside each other but CDs were more expensive to buy. The exact same thing happened with Videos and DVDs. Record companies etc used the launch of a new cheaper to produce format as an excuse to hike prices upwards by quite a large amount.

The above the the cost of stuff in Asia shows how greedy companies are and how the "wealthy" people in the West are being taken advantage of.

Balfa

L31mr0d wrote:

Are you serious? I thought you had to have some kind of brains to get into Trinity? Do I really need to baby feed you the "facts" about piracy and organised crime. If I said "the sun will rise tomorrow", would you like me to get astronomical data about stars and planatary orbits to prove it to you?

Come off it, if you want to debate away without backing yourself up, no one's going to pay attention to you. You'll realise that you need to put a little effort in and YOU will have to come up with the facts you're trying to prove. There's no point in screaming at people and insulting them for not knowing everything you know. And when people question your word, you can set their mind at ease by providing them with sensible sources promoting your cause, instead of screaming at them some more and saying how worrying it is that they simply disregard the "facts" (and I like the way you put it in quotes, as if to prove his point) that you've still failed to produce. And no one's yet doubted your statement about the Sun, so don't worry about proving that one.

Just do a search (do you know how to do that? try google.com) for piracy russia games mafia... whatever.

Have you even done that search? The first two pages are irrelevant articles about starforce. Followed by This Very Thread. Followed by some articles that make a passing reference to what we're looking for. None of which I would call any sort of facts. That ties in with what I was saying about you needing to do the legwork and bring the facts to your readers, not screaming something then telling them to go prove your point. We're not all born with your worldly wisdom and knowledge.

By the way, saying...

I'm simply stating a FACT, I don't need to back it up with any because that is what it is?

...is completely missing the point. Your ignorance is scary :P

Your ignorence is scary, HOW THE HELL COULD YOU NOT THINK ABOUT IT??? The people in Russia have grown up with organised crime. You haven't

You just answered your own question, there, I think.

Tell me, if you knew a bunch of racists, pedophiles and rapists got together and opened up a warehouse selling cheap games, would you be first in line?

Okay, later on you say you're fine with piracy where no-one profits. Hmm, so you go to websites to download your free games and the websites have porn banner ads that pay pedophiles for every visitor that views them.

So tunnel vision + lunatic ranting + lack of ability to criticise own actions = forum posters like you.

I'm not denying what you're saying. Just try and say it in a way that doesn't provoke irritation and hatred, eh?

Trode

Balfa wrote:

Come off it, if you want to debate away without backing yourself up, no one's going to pay attention to you. You'll realise that you need to put a little effort in and YOU will have to come up with the facts you're trying to prove. There's no point in screaming at people and insulting them for not knowing everything you know. And when people question your word, you can set their mind at ease by providing them with sensible sources promoting your cause, instead of screaming at them some more and saying how worrying it is that they simply disregard the "facts" (and I like the way you put it in quotes, as if to prove his point) that you've still failed to produce. And no one's yet doubted your statement about the Sun, so don't worry about proving that one.

Have you even done that search? The first two pages are irrelevant articles about starforce. Followed by This Very Thread. Followed by some articles that make a passing reference to what we're looking for. None of which I would call any sort of facts. That ties in with what I was saying about you needing to do the legwork and bring the facts to your readers, not screaming something then telling them to go prove your point. We're not all born with your worldly wisdom and knowledge.

By the way, saying......is completely missing the point. Your ignorance is scary :P

You just answered your own question, there, I think.

Okay, later on you say you're fine with piracy where no-one profits. Hmm, so you go to websites to download your free games and the websites have porn banner ads that pay pedophiles for every visitor that views them.

So tunnel vision + lunatic ranting + lack of ability to criticise own actions = forum posters like you.

I'm not denying what you're saying. Just try and say it in a way that doesn't provoke irritation and hatred, eh?

To be fair, he's the only one here being subjected to such stringent demands for evidence for what is a fairly common-sense assumption. "The crime I'm benefitting from is being committed by criminals you say?! I demand a full written confession from said criminals, as well as detailed accounts for how they spend the money, otherwise I'll assume it's entirely legit and the proceeds are going to kitten orphanages!"

I've yet to see even a half-hearted attempt to actually prove him wrong, except for the following three unproven arguments
1) Cheap stuff is good
2) It's totally cool, really.
3) Corporations are evil.
In fact, your claim that you couldn't find evidence to support him(and the associated 2-page google search) is so far the most effort that's been put into doing so.

Balfa

Trode wrote:

"The crime I'm benefitting from is being committed by criminals you say?! I demand a full written confession from said criminals, as well as detailed accounts for how they spend the money, otherwise I'll assume it's entirely legit and the proceeds are going to kitten orphanages!"

Heheh. True. To be fair.