Toyota Prius - it has been about 3 years now - any track record

Seanie M

I'm not in the market for a new car, as I can't afford it! But I was wondering about the Prius. What has its track record been like, now that it has established itself for oer 3 years on the roads now? I'd say if there are any teething problems, this would be a good time span for them to surface? I have seen a lot of them around Tullamore in the past few months, so I think their popularity is rising, most likely due to rising fuel costs.

It is a car I would actually consider. It doesn't look bad at all, it does have its own style. But what of the hybrid technology?

Seanie.

alias no.9

I don't think there's any real issues with the technology but I have read reports of owners being very disappointed with the fuel economy, getting figures that can easilybe matched and even bettered by any of the current crop of diesels.

road_high

I dont buy into this hybrid economy thing- imo it's a sham.A modern diesel car will offer far superior economy than the prius for a lot less cash.
I'd buy a good diesel Golf or Corolla and save the rest for a nice holiday instead!
Read any of the UK car mags, they all say the same.

Eoin

mfitzy wrote:

I dont buy into this hybrid economy thing- imo it's a sham.A modern diesel car will offer far superior economy than the prius for a lot less cash.
I'd buy a good diesel Golf or Corolla and save the rest for a nice holiday instead!
Read any of the UK car mags, they all say the same.

The Sunday Times motoring section (I think), got as good - if not better - MPG from the Merc diesel SUV than it did from the Lexus hybrid SUV. The same article said that many Prius drivers are getting around 40-45 MPG. Probably sounds great to Americans driving cars with huge engines to drop the kids to school, but the figures don't seem as good over here.

Stephen

Why the hell don't they build hybrids with diesel engines? Then you get the diesel fuel economy and the low-speed battery-only operation etc.

Seth Brundle

Yanks don't like diesels.
Not an accurate test but wasn't the Prius was one of the worst handling cars on Top Gear with its Eco Friendy tyres more tree hugging than tarmac hugging?

AlanD

Stephen wrote:

Why the hell don't they build hybrids with diesel engines? Then you get the diesel fuel economy and the low-speed battery-only operation etc.

Peugeot will be doing this at the Geneva Motor Show I think. A diesel hybrid concept in the 307 CC body. Supposedly it can get huge MPG returns. They'll build it eventually.

I like the turn that Lexus has made with Hybrid technology. They haven't made the GS450h a fuel efficient executive car, but a performance executive car. good spin.

Other than that, the Prius is a joke

colm_mcm

Hybrid diesels are on the way from Toyota AFAIK. and the Prius has been around a lot longer than 3 years!

unkel

Stephen wrote:

Why the hell don't they build hybrids with diesel engines?

As kbannon said or perhaps to elaborate: the yanks don't know about diesel. Neither do the japs. The latter (especially Toyota and to a lesser extent Honda) shat themselves though a few years ago when they finally :rolleyes: copped on and got into a frenzy to develop modern diesel engines themselves. In fairness they did quite well in such a short time, but the only modern jap diesels worth mentioning, the Honda 2.2 and the Toyota D-4D range, aren't really up to scratch yet compared to the class leaders, which of course are european. The first common rail in production cars is now nearly a decade ago!

leeroybrown

unkel wrote:

As kbannon said or perhaps to elaborate: the yanks don't know about diesel.

If I recall correctly the lack of diesel uptake has resulted in the quality of diesel fuel in the US being far lower than here and probably unsuited to a lot of modern engines. I think they are starting to offer proper diesel fuel there now.

LegacyUser

everyonehas heard the ads about the Carolla D4D that will 1000km on a full tank....will the Prius do the same??

dubtom

unkel wrote:

As kbannon said or perhaps to elaborate: the yanks don't know about diesel. Neither do the japs. The latter (especially Toyota and to a lesser extent Honda) shat themselves though a few years ago when they finally :rolleyes: copped on and got into a frenzy to develop modern diesel engines themselves. In fairness they did quite well in such a short time, but the only modern jap diesels worth mentioning, the Honda 2.2 and the Toyota D-4D range, aren't really up to scratch yet compared to the class leaders, which of course are european. The first common rail in production cars is now nearly a decade ago!

The toyota d4d isn't up to scratch? compared to what.Who are the class leaders, please don't say mercedes, fiat or ford.I had a 96 camry diesel, when I got it with 70K it was queiter and smoother than some petrol engine cars I had.It had faster pick up than my brother laws merc e200 petrol and it was pre d4d.I would love to know what actually makes a class leader in diesel technology because some of the diesels i hear clattering around are by no means top notch technology, mondeo's sound like tractors, fiat's likewise. The only mercedes diesel worth mentioning is the old 300. Is fuel consumption the yard stick that all diesels are measured by or something else? I just find that statment about toyota not measuring up amazing tbh, I think they are far superior to our european cousins.

maidhc

dubtom wrote:

think they are far superior to our european cousins.

I'm with that. I have a Ford Focus TDCi, and often drive a 06 Passat 1.9 TDI. The D4D is the superior engine of both. It pulls straight to 5.5k RPM, so there is no need to keep the needle between 2-3k like the Passat, it is so smooth compared to the VW and Ford. It is also inaudible most of the time.

And I'm just talking about the normal 2.0 116bhp one. I'd love to try the 2.2 180bhp version!

Also the old 1.8 normally aspirated engine the the AE80 Corolla was away more lively than the VWs of the time!

unkel

dubtom wrote:

Who are the class leaders, please don't say mercedes, fiat or ford

FIAT

FIAT was the first to bring to market a common rail diesel with the 2.4 5-pot JTD. BMW was also working with Bosch and introduced the 2.9 6-pot in the 530d shortly after. Both manufacturers have been the class leaders in diesel ever since

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Both manufacturers have been the class leaders in diesel ever since

People on boards seem very underwhelmed by the BMW engines though.

bazz26

unkel wrote:

the Honda 2.2 and the Toyota D-4D range, aren't really up to scratch yet compared to the class leaders, which of course are european.

BMW use the same 1.4 D4-D in the Mini. so it must be ok.

The reason the Japs have not been class leaders for diesel in Europe is simplely because they don't have a large market share in Europe up to recently so it didn't justify the investment at the time. The diesel market in Europe has exploded in the last 5 or so years, yes the Japs were a bit slow getting in on this but they are catching up now. The Honda 2.2 is amazingly quiet and the new Toyota 2.2 D4-D available in 180bhp in the Lexus IS220 is getting quite good reviews.

I remember driving my cousin's old 1990 Carina II 2.0 diesel many years ago and could not believe how much torque it had, it was a bit clattery but no worse than a VAG of the same age.

Whatever else can be said about Jap cars they don't make crap engines, petrol of diesel imo.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

BMW use the same 1.4 D4-D in the Mini. so it must be ok

There is a reason a mini does not have a BMW badge. Apart from that, using the Toyota D4-D in the mini has proven to be a big mistake. BMW is switching over the mini diesel to the french PSA diesel which is a lot less, eh, japanese. Anyways, the market for a mini diesel is tiny. No way would BMW spend billions to develop a suitable engine themselves just for the mini

bazz26 wrote:

the reason the Japs have not been class leaders for diesel in Europe is simplely because they don't have a large market share in Europe up to recently so it didn't justify the investment at the time

Bollix

Market share in Europe was not significantly different 5 or even 10 years ago compared to now

bazz26 wrote:

yes the Japs were a bit slow getting in on this but they are catching up now

They were very slow. They completely missed the bandwagon. But in fairness, they seem to have finally copped on recently with adequate diesel offerings

Surely anyone would recognise the typical asian competence: study a(european or american) innovation to death until you fully understand it and then do the ultimate copycat: build the very same thing that will last a lot longer. Time delay differs, but anytime between 5 and 10 years would be typical. Don't get me wrong, cheap competition from the far east is great imho!

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Surely anyone would recognise the typical asian competence: study a(european or american) innovation to death until you fully understand it and then do the ultimate copycat: build the very same thing that will last a lot longer. Time delay differs, but anytime between 5 and 10 years would be typical. Don't get me wrong, cheap competition from the far east is great imho!

Common Rail engines available in D segment cars:
320d came in 1999
The 406 HDi came out in about in around 1999
The Avensis D4D came in 2000.
The Ford Mondeo TDCi came out in around 2001
VW borught out the PD in around 2000/2001, but still don't have a proper common rail.

There is no evidence of a 5/10yr time delay here. In 1998 BMW also still fitting an utterly crap 1.7 diesel to the 3 series!

You are incorrect about the market share of diesels:

http://www.dbresearch.com/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB?rwkey=u9183563 wrote:

The diesel share in new car registrations touched the 50% mark in Western Europe (EU-15 and EFTA) in 2005. The segment has thus grown by over 35 percentage points since 1990. In absolute terms, over 5.3 m more cars with diesel engines were sold last year than in 1990.

Eoin

maidhc wrote:

Common Rail engines available in D segment cars:
320d came in 1999

Sorry for going OT, but was it available over here in '99? In my search for a 320D, I have yet to find one older than a 2000.

colm_mcm

maidhc wrote:

In 1998 BMW also still fitting an utterly crap 1.7 diesel to the 3 series!

Oh yes, the aptly named TDS



On the subject of Toyota engines,

The D-Cat (Diesel Clean Advanced Technology) engine has the smallest combined NOX and PM emissions among all diesel engines on the market. However, the unit boasts segment-beating levels of power and torque (177 DIN hp and 400 Nm between 2,000 and 2,600 rpm), combined with the lowest Noise, Vibration and Harshness (NVH) and, on average, 20% lower fuel consumption among engines of equivalent power (combined target fuel consumption of 6.1 l/100 km for Avensis Sedan).

That's hardly backward

unkel

maidhc wrote:

You are incorrect about the market share of diesels

Ah looks like I misinterpreted bazz26 there:

bazz26 wrote:

The reason the Japs have not been class leaders for diesel in Europe is simplely because they don't have a large market share in Europe up to recently

I thought they referred to the subject of the sentence, as in "the Japs". The market share of Japanese cars in Europe hasn't changed much over the past decade I would have thought. If bazz26 meant that they referred to diesel cars in Europe, than he was right!

maidhc wrote:

In 1998 BMW also still fitting an utterly crap 1.7 diesel to the 3 series!

The 318tds with 90BHP and a 0-100km/h time measured in minutes rather than seconds

I doubt if they ever sold more than a handful of '98 318tds in Ireland as the (early '98) E46 never had this engine. And in the D-segment in early '98 there was no common rail. So tractors galore. Except the FIAT JTD of course

eoin_s wrote:

Sorry for going OT, but was it available over here in '99? In my search for a 320D, I have yet to find one older than a 2000.

Not sure about here, but the 320d was available on the continent in early '98. Usually there is a time delay of a few months, presumably because of RHD

what_car

unkel wrote:

There is a reason a mini does not have a BMW badge. Apart from that, using the Toyota D4-D in the mini has proven to be a big mistake. BMW is switching over the mini diesel to the french PSA diesel which is a lot less, eh, japanese. Anyways, the market for a mini diesel is tiny. No way would BMW spend billions to develop a suitable engine themselves just for the mini


Bollix

Market share in Europe was not significantly different 5 or even 10 years ago compared to now



They were very slow. They completely missed the bandwagon. But in fairness, they seem to have finally copped on recently with adequate diesel offerings

Surely anyone would recognise the typical asian competence: study a(european or american) innovation to death until you fully understand it and then do the ultimate copycat: build the very same thing that will last a lot longer. Time delay differs, but anytime between 5 and 10 years would be typical. Don't get me wrong, cheap competition from the far east is great imho!

i can give my opinions on this topic as i have actually owned a few toyota D4D cars.... also having owned cars powered by PSA engines also here are my observations...

1. 2.0 D PSA engine 136bhp found in s40 etc , from my experience gave crap fuel economy, sounded rough and harsh.. 40-45mpg avg at best.

2. the toyota engines, sounded more refined, and the curent 2.0D4D is consistantly returning between 49-51 mpg average over the tankfull using the top up and manual calculations method...

in my opinion having owned both types of diesel the toyota 2.0D4D 125 bhp engine is more refined, returns better fuel economy, is not as noisy as the PSA engine..


toyota is way up there with diesel engines, look at the corolla D4D 1.4
i have tested this car numerous times and have regularly returned 1000km per tank. this is one of the current best sellers in the small diesel range.

erm tell me this, why is it that toyota is the number one make being sold in ireland?

unkel i think ur talking through ur (cough:D ) but ur entitled to your ideas!

ninty9er

I have stated here many times before that I know of someone getting a combined 57 mpg from a Prius.

Add to that that emission cust and not MPG cuts are it's aim and with a tonne less per 25k kms than a similarly sized new diesel(IIRC) they have achieved this

Del2005

ninty9er wrote:

I have stated here many times before that I know of someone getting a combined 57 mpg from a Prius.

Add to that that emission cust and not MPG cuts are it's aim and with a tonne less per 25k kms than a similarly sized new diesel(IIRC) they have achieved this

But when you take into account the extra energy required to make and dispose of it then it doen't measure up.
Also the huge battery banks from the first models are coming to their end of live and I'd like to see how they deal with these. Then there is the cost for the owner of replacing them!

The yanks have sticter emission standards, specificly particulate emissions which rules out most diesel vehicles excepts trucks. Sulpher in their diesel is only a small part of it.

Newer diesels over there have particulate filters which has started to see more diesels coming on the market.

The primary reason the prius was not diesel is because it was designed for the American market. And if you have ever been to the states you will know there are very few diesel pumps outside truck stops.

maidhc

Del2005 wrote:

But when you take into account the extra energy required to make and dispose of it then it doen't measure up.
Also the huge battery banks from the first models are coming to their end of live and I'd like to see how they deal with these. Then there is the cost for the owner of replacing them!

People should just keep what they own until the end of its economic service life. Nothing annoys me more that people who change their prius/Focus FFV every 24mths lecture people who drive an ageing diesel 4x4 about the environment and climate change and their "carbon footprint".

Somehow a lot of "green" "environmentalists" seem to be very careful to come across as being englightened rather than poor.

Del2005

@ Maidhc ; Sorry I meant replacing the batteries not the cars. But your point is still valid. I was watching a green program on TV a while back where they where rating how green people where. This elderly couple where bragging about how green the where cause she had a Prius and he had a 430h. The person doing the show told them they where just wasting energy as keepiong their old cars where greener then going out and buying 2 new cars.

Balfa

leeroybrown wrote:

If I recall correctly the lack of diesel uptake has resulted in the quality of diesel fuel in the US being far lower than here and probably unsuited to a lot of modern engines. I think they are starting to offer proper diesel fuel there now.

That's absolutely true. It's not that the consumers don't want them, it's that there's feck all for sale here. There are two volkswagens & two mercs (and NONE of them are legal in california and new york, two huge markets with stricter emissions controls), along with a sprinkle of american pickups.

This is because until very recently, US diesel contained I think about 1000 times as much sulfur as eurodiesel. That means two things. First, the extra sulfur pollutes more and is heavily linked with acid rain. Second, sulfur kills catalytic converters so they can't be used in the cars on the market here, making emissions even worse overall. So loose quality controls at the pump along with very tight regulations on emissions at the exhaust pipe make it technically and economically quite difficult to sell a diesel here.

However all this is changing as Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (with similar levels to that of eurodiesel) has been introduced in October of last year and I'm excited that Diesel market share and choice for consumers like me will increase dramatically over the next decade.

It's a LOT more expensive at the pump, too (~$2.45/gal vs ~$2.00/gal for unleaded). I don't know why that is

kevpants

Totally agree on the made up "Green cars" theory. The emmisions from the factory that came from manufacturing the car are more than that car will produce in its lifetime. I will never feel guilty for driving a gas guzzler as motoring makes up a tiny % of carbon emmisions. Industry is the resounding highest polluter. Really ticks me off when government talk about taxing cars based on emmisions. Another scam and a cance to screw us over again. Do companies coming to Ireland with their billions of euros get asked to cut down on emmisions. I think not.

Makes me want to buy a 6 litre V8 with built in oil powered central heating and upholstery made entirely from baby panda skins. That'll learn em.

colm_mcm

the beauty of hybrids is that they reduce urban air and noise pollution.

maidhc

colm_mcm wrote:

the beauty of hybrids is that they reduce urban air and noise pollution.

Horns are optional, and the radio only goes up half way?

Balfa

colm_mcm wrote:

the beauty of hybrids is that they reduce urban air and noise pollution.

Oh my god, they reduce air in urban areas?? Shockin'!


By the way, various associations for the blind are lobbying toyota to stick fake "vroom vroom" noises on the prius (er, for safety reasons, obviously). It is kind of eerie how they roll along silently, but I like it

colm_mcm

Balfa wrote:

Oh my god, they reduce air in urban areas?? Shockin'!


By the way, various associations for the blind are lobbying toyota to stick fake "vroom vroom" noises on the prius (er, for safety reasons, obviously). It is kind of eerie how they roll along silently, but I like it

maybe various associations for the blind should have convinced me to throw some more punctuation in there, I can understand it perfectly, but obviously people with impaired vision are having trouble

galwaytt

not just Prius. I was at the bike show on Fri eve, and the guy on the Vectrix electric scooter was having a hell of a time getting through crowd.....no sound, see..........imagine a busy street with buses, etc around, then we can blame the Greens for the increase in pedestrian fatalities.........

If, however, he'd been trying to maneouvre my Road King..........I can assure you it would have been like the parting of the Red Sea for Moses...........:D Loud Pipes Save Lives......;)

....which is no doubt why all the new supercars have 'active' exhausts.......trying to re-kindle some sense of soul.

And a colleagues did 200k on 2 1.9 Multijet Fiats..........and absolutely no repairs, so I'm not wearing the Toyota High Moral Ground thing in that front, either......

Interesting hijacks on the OP's original question though !!

gyppo

No one has mentioned the batteries in these damn yokes.

1 How long will they last for?
2 How much will they cost to replace? (loadza money, i would think)
3 How much will they cost to dispose? (see ^^ )

Then, look at resale in 5 years time, when its likely that the battery system will need replacing - I wonder what the resale value will be?

galwaytt

gyppo wrote:

No one has mentioned the batteries in these damn yokes.

1 How long will they last for?
2 How much will they cost to replace? (loadza money, i would think)
3 How much will they cost to dispose? (see ^^ )

Then, look at resale in 5 years time, when its likely that the battery system will need replacing - I wonder what the resale value will be?

Colm_mcm should have the exact answers, but......at a guess
1 - 10 years max
2 - I heard a vicious rumour of 5k
3 - They'd better be taking the old ones f.o.c based on 2).........

Resale - exactly ! And, if you add all these costs, have you saved the planet anything at all............?

Finally, did you get a quote on the Prius for insurance - they used to cost more than a Corolla, due to cost of repairs..........

Seth Brundle

sent to toyota.ie...

Can you tell me what kind of lifespan the batteries in the prius (1st and 2nd generations) have?
Can you also tell me how much it costs to replace these (including labour)?
What happens the batteries once they have been replaced?
Thanks

Seth Brundle

Their reply:

Thank you for your enquiry into the Toyota Prius.

The Dry cells batteries in the rear of the Prius provide the power to the electric motor, which in turn drives the road wheels. There is also a conventional wet cell battery in the front of the vehicle that runs the electrics of the car and the petrol engine. The two types of battery differ greatly. Dry cell batteries have a much larger life span than wet cell batteries.

With regards to the life span of the dry cell batteries, the Prius has been present in the Irish market since 1998 and in that time no Prius has had to have their dry cell batteries replaced.

Toyota Ireland disposes of all their used batteries to a recycling company called Return Bat.

The cost of replacing the dry cell batteries in a current generation Prius is €6210 and requires around 2 hrs labour.

Assuring you of our best attention at all times.

We remain
Yours very truly
TOYOTA IRELAND

unkel

Not a single replacement in 9 years - that's pretty impressive. The sample size is small though, being based on Irish sales only. I'd like to know the figure for worldwide sales

Mind, if any one fails, even after say only 9 or 10 years, it is not economically viable to replace the batteries as the car is worth less than the repair bill

I wonder can you (legally) keep driving one without the assistance of the electric motor?

Seth Brundle

Just scanning various prius forums the batteries seem to be doing ok e.g. "the failure rate of Prius HV batteries (after the ostensibly-Japan-only NHW10) is between 1/1000 and 1/10000"

There is a Prius taxi in vancouver with over 240K miles on it and "still no major repairs": http://www.greentaxi.org/testimonials.php

JHMEG

Driving the wife's Civic IMA from Rosslare to Dublin, this is the fuel economy:


Show me ANY similar sized diesel car that will get close to that!

The Civic IMA in particular is a great 2nd hand buy from the UK, not just due to the usual UK stuff, but also because:
a) The hybrid/IMA gear is all covered by an 100,000 mile/8 year warranty
b) The spec is excellent (leather as standard etc)
c) The VRT is only 11.25%, making it cheaper than a petrol only 1.4 Civic
d) After 3 years it will cost little more to buy in the UK than a 1.6

Oh, and as for the Japs not being class leaders in Diesel: International Engine of The Year Awards 2005: Best 2-litre to 2.5-litre: Honda 2.2-litre Diesel (Accord, CR-V, FR-V). Top ranking Diesel again in its class in 2006, followed by Toyota's 2.2 D-4D.

maidhc

JHMEG wrote:

Show me ANY similar sized diesel car that will get close to that!

The Audi A2 1.4 TDi isn't far off I'd imagine.

I get about 52 from my Focus with standard commuting. It edges towards 60 on long journeys.

I think you can count on one hand the number of Prius sold in Ireland prior to the second generation coming out.

JHMEG

maidhc wrote:

The Audi A2 1.4 TDi isn't far off I'd imagine.

A2 isn't a similar sized car.

Oh, and did I mention 74mpg on the motorway, and 52mpg in rush hour Dublin stop-start traffic?

.Longshanks.

....Just thought i'd throw this in;
My 1.3CDTi Astra gives me a combined cycle of 58-59 mpg - i worked it 3 or 4 different times over the past 2 months. 60- 70% of that on the motorway with the rest in town.

Altreab

leeroybrown wrote:

If I recall correctly the lack of diesel uptake has resulted in the quality of diesel fuel in the US being far lower than here and probably unsuited to a lot of modern engines. I think they are starting to offer proper diesel fuel there now.

This is in fact the reason why no modern diesel engines were on the market in the USA ...until last october when the oil companies were mandated to start supplying ultra low sulphur the sulphur levels in USA diesel would have killed most new diesel engines. Now USA diesel is the cleanest on the market anywhere. It will however take about 5-10 years for americans to realise just how clean and efficient diesel cars are, and to get the mental images of diesel = belching filthy smoke out of their heads. When they do expect them to change to diesel in droves.

gyppo

@JHMEG,

Thats very very impressive.

However, on long journies in the Leon Tdi I used to own, I could get 65/66mpg, and the onboard display was fairly accurate.

Seth Brundle

interesting: http://ideas.4brad.com/node/308

zilog_jones

unkel wrote:

I wonder can you (legally) keep driving one without the assistance of the electric motor?

It wouldn't go very fast if it could. The engine only outputs about 75hp but the car weighs over 1300kg.

JHMEG

zilog_jones wrote:

It wouldn't go very fast if it could. The engine only outputs about 75hp but the car weighs over 1300kg.

Pretty much identical to a 1.4 VW Golf in weight and power.

@unkle: of course you can drive it legally if the battery is dead and motor not working.. it's just like any other petrol car.

JHMEG

gyppo wrote:

@JHMEG,

Thats very very impressive.

However, on long journies in the Leon Tdi I used to own, I could get 65/66mpg, and the onboard display was fairly accurate.

That's impressive in itself, but would maybe compare to a long, constant speed journey in the IMA, which will then do 73-74mpg (eg Dubin to Dundalk on the M1).

maidhc

JHMEG wrote:

Pretty much identical to a 1.4 VW Golf in weight and power.

@unkle: of course you can drive it legally if the battery is dead and motor not working.. it's just like any other petrol car.

The car would probably throw a hissy though. It has an Atkinson cycle engine which needs the electric circuit to make it drivable.