Holiday Homes in Donegal

jimmycrackcorm

From http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1647480&issue_id=14314

TV's Craig Doyle supports holiday home ban

TELEVISION presenter Craig Doyle has voiced his support for a campaign to impose a holiday home ban in parts of Donegal.

The BBC sports anchor and former presenter of 'The Travel Show', was speaking ahead of Monday's special meeting of Donegal County Council, where members will be required to finally adopt the County Development Plan.

The county manager has also urged members to push ahead with a proposed holiday home ban in certain areas including Dunfanaghy/Portnablagh, Downings/Rossguil and the Culdaff and Greencastle areas of Inishowen.

The popular BBC presenter, originally from Dublin, last year ranked Donegal as the tenth most disappointing holiday destination in the world because of too many "nasty developments".

A number of submissions from the public to the plan during the consultation period referred to Mr Doyle's remarks and called on the council to impose a ban on holiday homes.

Speaking about the holiday home proposal, Mr Doyle felt that it was "an excellent idea"."The main problem is the lack of planning, not just in Donegal, but all over Ireland," he said.

Should the council be fair and insist that the people of gweedore move their houses all into one spot - you know like a town?

What's so wrong about indiscrimate planning anyway - what effect does it have? Are people grumpy because they feel that holiday homes mean that the houses are there but the owners do not contribute enough to the local economy? if they are a blight on the landscape then shouldn't that apply to all houses regardless if they are holiday homes or not? Does every location in the county need to be scenic and why so for the named locations?

Seems very bureaucrtic to me. I realize we need some sort of planning strategy but a blanket ban on certain areas seems irrational to me....

Tall Tom

Just to add fuel to the fire, areas that are popular for Holiday homes usually hike up the neighboring home prices which makes it impossible for the local folks to buy another house in the area when they are looking to upgrade.

muffler

Yes I think Tom has hit the nail on the head. The imposition of a ban on holiday homes has less to do with scenery and tourism but more to do with property pricing and a stress on inferior or non existant infrastructure and common services.

For the last 6 years the Council have a policy in force in relation to holiday homes which is driven by the need for local people to be able to afford to build in the area in which they are indigineous. An example of this - about 7 years ago I recall someone from Northern Ireland paying around £110,000 sterling for a half acre site near Portnablagh. How the hell could any young local couple afford that type of money. At that time they would have expected to have had their house built for that amount.

That was happening all around the coastal areas in particular of Donegal and it got to a stage where people were moving miles away from their family and friends in order to afford the cost of a site.

The other major problem facing the council was the fact that in places like Downings there is not a decent water supply. In fact a lot of property there is serviced by wells and bore holes. The influx of people in the summer months puts an enormous strain on an already antiquated water supply. Most of the villages and small towns dont even have a public sewer and when you add these problems to the ongoing roads problems then you have one hell of a mess to deal with.

The present county development plan (2000 - 2006) has a lot of restrictions in place in relation to the number and locations of holiday home developments and apparantly its not working that well so they intend to tighten up on this
by applying the bans on holiday home developments in certain areas. The new development plan is due to be adopted on Monday (July 10) and whether you like or agree with it or not it is the members of the council (councillors) who have they final say on it. It will be very interesting to see what they will adopt.

Up for adoption also is the proposal to make all applicants for planning permissions for housing in rural areas enter into a Section 47 agreement which entails occupying the house for the first 7 years. That is the proposal but what will be adopted.

Just a note for anyone who is not aware of this. When the county manager states that he intends to do this that and the other it is normally done as a result of advice given from his staff. In this case concerning the proposal to ban holiday homes it is actually the planning staff who compile the proposals and send it on to the manager but before he can give legal status to these proposals he in turn must send them to be adopted by the members at a full meeting of the council. This is where things can get tricky as they members have the power to veto or alter the plan. But in any event the members must adopt some form of a development plan prior to July 13 otherwise the planning and development acts makes provision for the manager to adopt the plan himself in the event of the members not reaching agreement or failing to adopt

DonegalMan

muffler wrote:

The other major problem facing the council was the fact that in places like Downings there is not a decent water supply. In fact a lot of property there is serviced by wells and bore holes. The influx of people in the summer months puts an enormous strain on an already antiquated water supply. Most of the villages and small towns dont even have a public sewer and when you add these problems to the ongoing roads problems then you have one hell of a mess to deal with.

Whilst the spotlight has been on holiday homes, this is a more general problem that doesn't seem to be getting the recognition it requires.

The average number of people living in a house has reduced dramatically in a single generation - when I was a kid, there were 15 people living in our house, 13 children and my parents. How many house nowadays have anything remotely near that number?

At the same time, our population is growing so the total number of houses required is rapidly increasing all the time.

Well away from the holiday areas, villages like Castlefinn, Raphoe, Convoy, and Killygordan are all struggling with water supply and sewage disposal.

Unless there is a massive investment in services throughout the county - and I'm sure other parts of Ireland are suffering equally - then the situation can only go from bad to worse.

Investment in new roads in the last few years has been great and very welcome but we need more investment directed towards the less glamourous basic services like water and sewage.

Martyr

Seems very bureaucrtic to me. I realize we need some sort of planning strategy but a blanket ban on certain areas seems irrational to me....

its not irrational to me.
tourists come to donegal because of its untouched scenery, but slowly this is being eroded away by ridiculous so-called "holiday home" construction which does nothing for local economies.

the tourists should be made to stay in hotels or b+b's.. that way they actually do contribute something to the local economy..instead of just cashing in on the lucrative property market here & the grants for building these things.

if it were my choice, every existing holiday home not lived in for atleast 8 weeks of the year would be demolished or sold to people who actually need a home.

we're too soft & naive in donegal, people from northern ireland own most of these homes, & they are coming across the border for a bit of peace & quiet during the holidays, only to moan about how much better it is back in the north..suckas.

they are not welcome as far as i'm concerned, & should re-locate immediately.
they're takin a hand at the system & laughing all the way to the bank at how stupid donegal people are.

jimmycrackcorm

its not irrational to me.
tourists come to donegal because of its untouched scenery, but slowly this is being eroded away by ridiculous so-called "holiday home" construction which does nothing for local economies.

There's no shortage of untouched scenery in Donegal and the proportion of holiday home developments is miniscule in comparison to the area. Also the contruction does add to the local economy.

the tourists should be made to stay in hotels or b+b's.. that way they actually do contribute something to the local economy..instead of just cashing in on the lucrative property market here & the grants for building these things.

Can you image the cost of having a family holiday in a Hotel in Donegal?

if it were my choice, every existing holiday home not lived in for atleast 8 weeks of the year would be demolished or sold to people who actually need a home.

Spoken like a true socialist.

they are not welcome as far as i'm concerned, & should re-locate immediately.
they're takin a hand at the system & laughing all the way to the bank at how stupid donegal people are.

That must be the same attitude that drivers have back at home when they never let you out of a side road. First of all they're not laughing all the way to the bank because they have to spend the money to build it. It's not like they have the same rental potential as a spanish apartment has. Secondly most people have holdiay homes there because they love the whole Donegal thing.

Those who do rent out holiday homes and where they are occupied regularly are contributing to the local economy.

donegalman1

I doubt if its fair blaming Northerners for our poor planning restrictions.

It is true that most of these homes are dormat most of the year and most Northerners bring their goods with them due to high prices here.

But the blame for poor planning lies with the local planning authorities and lest we not forget most of these homes were built by local developers in a get rich quick fashion.

Rediculous planning has destroyed many areas here, but I doubt if its much good trying to sort it out now.

Martyr

There's no shortage of untouched scenery in Donegal and the proportion of holiday home developments is miniscule in comparison to the area. Also the contruction does add to the local economy

it only adds to the local economy in the short term.

Can you image the cost of having a family holiday in a Hotel in Donegal?

how on earth does this compare to building an actual house???

Spoken like a true socialist.

i was just joking, really.
but there are enough already for gods sake!
will you be happy when donegal is covered in them????

That must be the same attitude that drivers have back at home when they never let you out of a side road. First of all they're not laughing all the way to the bank because they have to spend the money to build it. It's not like they have the same rental potential as a spanish apartment has. Secondly most people have holdiay homes there because they love the whole Donegal thing.

Those who do rent out holiday homes and where they are occupied regularly are contributing to the local economy

.

yeah right.
if you ask me, they only build the things because 1.they get grants for it & 2.house prices in ireland are ridiculous right now, especially in scenic areas around donegal & its a sound investment for the future.

they couldn't give a toss about the environment or how it looks.
remember that these houses are leased out aswell you know.
don't be naive jimmycrackorm.

you sound like a developer to me anyways, any wonder you don't want a ban.:D

muffler

Average Joe wrote:

if you ask me, they only build the things because 1.they get grants for it

I notice this is the second time you have referred to people getting grants for building houses. Can you say where they get these grants as I certainly am not aware of any housing grants apart from improving houses for the disabled

Martyr

The EEA have recently published a report titled 'The changing face of Europe's coastal areas'
It concludes that rare plants & animals along the coastline & the environment will suffer as a result of construction in coastal areas..this would be 10KM inland from the sea.

Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.

http://reports.eea.europa.eu/eea_report_2006_6/en

PDF document here.
http://reports.eea.europa.eu/eea_report_2006_6/en/eea_report_6_2006.pdf

also, read here, which was in the Irish times originally.
http://www.constructireland.ie/news.php?artID=3734

i quote from the EU report.

Between 1990 and 2000, artificial surfaces in coastal zones increased in almost all European countries.
Economic restructuring has been a driver for infrastructure development, which in turn has attracted residential sprawl. The highest increase in artificial surfaces (20–35 %) has been observed in the coastal zones of Portugal, Ireland and Spain.

am i wrong, but do people live in summer houses all year round? or just a couple of weeks in the year?
i wouldn't consider a resident to be absent from home most of the year.

In tandem, growth of urban artificial surfaces in the coastal zones of Europe has continued. On the basis of the annual growth rates observed during 1990–2000, it is projected that by 2004 the 1990 levels will have been exceeded by 12 %. The fastest development has taken place in Portugal (34 %), Ireland (27 %), Spain (18 %), followed by France, Italy and Greece. The most affected regional coasts is the western Mediterranean.

Regarding the coasts of European regional seas, population growth increased on most sea fronts between 1991 and 2001. The highest increases were registered on the Atlantic coast (6.4 %) (e.g. France, Ireland and Portugal).

When you look at the trend on page 25, you'll see that Ireland has the highest land take by housing, service & recreation along coastal areas in europe.
For a country with such a small population, it seems too much to me regardless of irelands increased wealth.

jimmycrackcorm claims that the local economies benefit from owners of holiday homes..lets see what the EEA says.

All these developments are approved and even promoted in most regional planning, as the market economy is prioritised over environmental concerns.
Planning objectives are too often focused on satisfying demand of private needs instead of managing demand, bringing more quality activities and adding value to the region. Good short-term returns on private investments are too often prioritised. This has a tremendous impact on common natural resources and the local socio-cultural fabric in the long-term.

so, in a nutshell.
private developers benefit in the short-term & the local people & environment suffer long-term.

Coastal development and tourism intensification are leading to the over frequentation of natural sites both on land and at sea. This is a main issue in areas with high value ecosystems. Frequentation of a high number of people impacts on fragile coastal systems.
This is exacerbated by new motorised forms of leisure (e.g. all-terrain vehicles, mopeds, scooters) which are more destructive when used on dunes,
lidos and forest paths. Erosion, distressing animals and other impacts are the results of these activities.
It is worth noting that 90 % of forest fires are caused by man. Diving activities without control can also deeply alter underwater ecosystems, especially when coupled with illegal gathering of coral or catches of fish.
These impacts create many externalities that ultimately local communities have to pay for.
Integrated management and planning of the coast should try to regulate the failures of the market.
It should also promote policies to internalise externalities. For example, sand volumes extracted during construction of a marina could be replaced by developers following the criteria of the Strategic Environmental Assessment. For example, a pool of public land could be created to allow protection and low cost housing policies could be devised. Urgent work needs to be dedicated to these topics and also to the applicability of eco-taxes as a financing source.

this is good advice that the people of donegal, the county council & our government should take note of.
Urgent work definitely does need to be dedicated to these topics, it hasn't so far.

i think the report suggests that there are more negative implications on the areas where coastal construction takes place & not just for the environment but the people who live there, ALL year round, & not just a couple of weeks in the year.

I notice this is the second time you have referred to people getting grants for building houses. Can you say where they get these grants as I certainly am not aware of any housing grants apart from improving houses for the disabled

here in the republic of ireland, the government brought in some legislation called the 'Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts' around 1929.

it was a good initiative at the time, but in recent years, since ireland has been able to stand on its own feet with the help of EU funding, many who left the island years ago to look for work decided that they would come back & retire with a nice house on the coast of donegal.

Fair enough, i've no problem with that, if its a few genuine individuals, fine.

however, many greedy private developers & investors see this 'Housing Act' as a way to build houses in Gealtacht areas only to sell them on at insane prices.

in my opinion & many others, the authorities are clearly aware of it, the act is now being abused by private developers & investors in the areas where it applies.
These areas would be Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, Cork, Waterford & Meath

if you look at the statistics for house building in these areas, you'll see that the growth is far greater than the demand by local people, who were supposed to benefit from the act in the first place.

once again, taxpayers money is being gobbled up by private developers & investors who abuse the system & get away with it.. because we let them get away with it, for not speaking out, not complaining enough.

i know someone is gonna point out 'you need to speak irish as your first language' to qualify for the grants.

but i think, as long as you can fill out a form in irish & were born in ireland, you're as good as qualified. :rolleyes:

grants apply to new houses, or upgrading existing ones.
check environ.ie for details, but this is what i found.

Category Mainland Islands

New House €5,100 €15,300
Essential Improvement €5,100 €15,300
Provision of Water Supply €2,420 €3,630
Sewerage System €1,040 €1,560
Bathroom €1,560 €2,340
Improvements to Sanitation Installations €640 €960
Special extension for visitors * €1,280 €1,920
Renewal of Thatched Roof €7,000 €10,500

i don't know why local papers don't look for this information & publish it for people to be made aware of it.
maybe they have & i missed it.

i'm sure if you search around enough online, you'll find more information on house-building incentives & grants for ireland in general & gaeltacht areas.

retalivity

in further round the west where im from, i find it sad when i go home now.
there are houses goin up eberywhere, not just on the coast and in scenic areas but in the bogs anywhere they can be put.

thank god i dont have to rely on outbidding a northerner/outsider for a piece of land when i decide to build a home.

jimmycrackcorm

I'd hardly consider building the houses to be a short term gain to the local economy when the things are being built all the time. A sort of elongated short term then.

To put things into perspective - Donegal is not exactly over developed by any measure. Reading the EEA report, one might be given the impressions that the situation is an overreaching disaster.

Let us now pray for the poor flora and fauna of the coast.

angeltoes

I know of one development in Donegal and there are a small number of europeans but it's primarily owned by northern familys who traditionally came to the caravan park it is now built on. It was orginally advertised onliine and in national press first, which meant that they were primarily lookiing for the holiday market who were willing to pay above the local estate rates to have a holiday home smack bang on top of the beach.

muffler

Average Joe wrote:

here in the republic of ireland, the government brought in some legislation called the 'Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts' around 1929.

it was a good initiative at the time, but in recent years, since ireland has been able to stand on its own feet with the help of EU funding, many who left the island years ago to look for work decided that they would come back & retire with a nice house on the coast of donegal.

Fair enough, i've no problem with that, if its a few genuine individuals, fine.

however, many greedy private developers & investors see this 'Housing Act' as a way to build houses in Gealtacht areas only to sell them on at insane prices.

in my opinion & many others, the authorities are clearly aware of it, the act is now being abused by private developers & investors in the areas where it applies.
These areas would be Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, Cork, Waterford & Meath

if you look at the statistics for house building in these areas, you'll see that the growth is far greater than the demand by local people, who were supposed to benefit from the act in the first place.

once again, taxpayers money is being gobbled up by private developers & investors who abuse the system & get away with it.. because we let them get away with it, for not speaking out, not complaining enough.

i know someone is gonna point out 'you need to speak irish as your first language' to qualify for the grants.

but i think, as long as you can fill out a form in irish & were born in ireland, you're as good as qualified. :rolleyes:

grants apply to new houses, or upgrading existing ones.
check environ.ie for details, but this is what i found.

Category Mainland Islands

New House €5,100 €15,300
Essential Improvement €5,100 €15,300
Provision of Water Supply €2,420 €3,630
Sewerage System €1,040 €1,560
Bathroom €1,560 €2,340
Improvements to Sanitation Installations €640 €960
Special extension for visitors * €1,280 €1,920
Renewal of Thatched Roof €7,000 €10,500

i don't know why local papers don't look for this information & publish it for people to be made aware of it.
maybe they have & i missed it.

i'm sure if you search around enough online, you'll find more information on house-building incentives & grants for ireland in general & gaeltacht areas.

Apologies. I had forgotten about the Gaeltacht and Island areas.

But in fairness the gaeltacht area only covers a part of the entire coastal region and outside of the gaeltacht areas there are no grants. If you look at houses in the areas like Gweedore etc I think its fair to say that most of them have been built by locals

Martyr

I'd hardly consider building the houses to be a short term gain to the local economy when the things are being built all the time. A sort of elongated short term then.

To put things into perspective - Donegal is not exactly over developed by any measure. Reading the EEA report, one might be given the impressions that the situation is an overreaching disaster.

Let us now pray for the poor flora and fauna of the coast.

may i ask where you come from?
i don't think you're a donegal native with that attitude towards this issue.

furthermore, you haven't even read the report, i know this because you arrogantly assume, as you put it:one might be given the impressions that the situation is an overreaching disaster

am i arrogantly assuming you're just another outsider who couldn't care less about donegal?

its unfortunate that most people cannot see that the beautiful untouched landscape, which donegal is well known for will soon diminish in peoples minds as more & more developments continue.

as retalivity says, it is sad.

muffler

The new development plan for the county is to be adopted today and one way or another it will have serious implications for all types of housing developments.
Just heard on the local highland radio news that the meeing is still ongoing and councillors are locked in debate as to how many holiday homes will be allowed.

That would indicate that there is not going to be an outright ban but an element of curtailment.

Funny thing is that i was talking to someone in the Council earlier today and was told that in their opinion there will be more restrictions on housing in ordinary rural areas than on holiday homes

Martyr

Funny thing is that i was talking to someone in the Council earlier today and was told that in their opinion there will be more restrictions on housing in ordinary rural areas than on holiday homes

bigger wonders, council are nothin but a bunch of tamed monkeys.
look at the state of the roads in letterkenny.
just wait til the new dunnes stores opens, then we'll have a laugh, oh yes :rolleyes:

smashey

Sorry if this is off topic, but I think it is relevant.

I saw an article at the weekend about the Dunfanaghy area and the effect the holiday homes are having on the local economy. The main gripe was the fact that people who own these holiday homes don't buy groceries or alcohol from the local shops/pubs. Could you blame them? I was at a wedding in Letterkenny last Friday and a bottle of bacardi breezer was €5.30 a bottle.:mad: The following day, my fiancee bought twelve bottles in Asda in Strabane for £10.00. Human nature is alive and well.

muffler

smashey wrote:

The following day, my fiancee bought twelve bottles in Asda in Strabane for £10.00. Human nature is alive and well.

Its called "hair of the dog"

jimmycrackcorm

Average Joe wrote:

may i ask where you come from?

You may.

i don't think you're a donegal native with that attitude towards this issue.

Perhaps you think I'm from Mars then if you place of birth depends on attitude.

furthermore, you haven't even read the report, i know this because you arrogantly assume, as you put it:one might be given the impressions that the situation is an overreaching disaster

Perhaps my perception of disasterous proportions is simply widely at odds to your own.

am i arrogantly assuming you're just another outsider who couldn't care less about donegal?

Perhaps I'm just a native now living in Dublin who would love to have the chance to come home to my own little piece of Donegal. Am I arrogantly assuming you are a native who lives there but doesn't understand what itmust be like to come home to vist?

its unfortunate that most people cannot see that the beautiful untouched landscape, which donegal is well known for will soon diminish in peoples minds as more & more developments continue.

As i said already there is more than enough unspoiled coutryside in Donegal.

as retalivity says, it is sad.

All things being unequal that is.

Martyr

You may.

Where are you from? england? the pale?

Perhaps you think I'm from Mars then if you place of birth depends on attitude.

well, if you feel that the report by EEA is unimportant when it directly affects the lives of people & the environment in donegal, then you probably are not from donegal, so why should you care?

For example, the UK government insist on building new Nuclear Power stations which put the island of ireland in danger.Even after UK's own advisors on energy have stated that they are not necessary, tony b-liar will go ahead & build them anyway.
They don't care if ireland is destroyed, because they don't live here, know what i mean?

money is more important.

why not build the stations in the city of london?
obviously because they are too dangerous, thats why..but hell, ireland..pfft, sure who cares about them? lets build it off their coast!! f##k them if they don't like it!!

one is not impressed.:p

Perhaps my perception of disasterous proportions is simply widely at odds to your own.

i don't care what your perception of a disaster is.
off-topic, you probably think that the situation in Iraq is minor detail.
"things could be worse" ..etc
you're likely to say "military doin a good job, considering the circumstances"

Perhaps I'm just a native now living in Dublin who would love to have the chance to come home to my own little piece of Donegal. Am I arrogantly assuming you are a native who lives there but doesn't understand what itmust be like to come home to vist?

Donegal should be open for everyone to enjoy, not exclusively kept for a handful of zealots like yourself.

"mammy, i want it all for myself" ..:rolleyes:

As i said already there is more than enough unspoiled coutryside in Donegal.

oh..well then, thats ok.
if you say so.
you won't mind me moving next to you when you come to donegal will you?

All things being unequal that is.

right.

muffler

Average Joe and Jimmycrackcorm, you have both raised interesting points and there is a good healthy debate in process and we would like it to remain so.

The last couple of posts have, in parts, edged towards the point of getting personal and while you are encouraged to debate the topic further as is everyone else I would just remind you not to get into a slanging match here as the rules on personal abuse are quite clear.

Keep the posts coming and keep them on topic

Martyr

Keep the posts coming and keep them on topic

know what you mean, i'm not gonna talk about it anymore after this.

i have a feeling, in the future, most people (atleast here in donegal), who are in any way concerned about the environment around them, will look back & shake their heads at whats goin on now & ask why wasn't something done to stop it.

you take a good look at letterkenny construction at the moment, & all i can ask you is how many more empty shop units do we need around the town?

just as i'm asking, how many more empty "holiday homes" do we need in scenic areas around donegal?

OK, council said there will be a 20% limit on "holiday home" development in certain areas.
there is so much ambiguity in this.

and enda bonner when asked "how will it be policed" replied: "thats a good question"

Just shows you what kind of imbeciles "look after donegal"
they don't even know how it will be regulated..idiots.

its the same thing with the street trading laws in letterkenny, who will enforce that?
..i'll bet if you asked the council, they probably wouldn't be able to tell you.

i'm going off topic again, but i've said enough anyway.

muffler

There's no problem really with going a wee bit off topic. The last post is a good example where development in another area was mentioned and then policing of that development was also mentioned as was opinion on the people who will be involved in theses matters.

Thats fine. There are links between the original topic and the content of Average Joe's post. In fact that post illustrates how going slightly off topic can still be tied in with the OP and therefore is acceptable.

Generally every thread and post will be taken on its own merit and i dont think there are in problems with this thread so far as regards to staying on or off topic.

My remark in my last post about staying on topic was a general comment only and a gentle reminder to everyone who is posting here

bettlebrox

Where's Paddy when you need him? ;D

Lads, I agree with Muffler, your starting to get a little personal or b*tchy at each other. Take a step back from the computer and take a deep breath. Maybe it would help if both of you would go into a little bit more detail about what you think and why?

As far as meself goes, I think there is too much random building in many of the county's scenic spots. I do think it's a little unfair to pick on our Northern Iron neighbours, it is our County Council's fault partly due to (from what I've heard) for not listening to the planners and for overruling the planners.

Yes, there are problems and property is too expensive and people need to build somewhere. The untouched landscape and the cute towns is what attracts many of the foreign tourists that come (or used to come) to Donegal. Not urban sprawl, traffic jams, and ugly bunglows. Surely with decent planning and enforcement of the rules there is room for what everyone whats?

The building industry is important to the local and national economy, but building booms usually lead to an oversaturation of the market ...

Sorry if this post is a little haphazard, tis late, was working late, ta me tired. I'll try and post a better put together post over the weekend.

section4

muffler wrote:

Apologies. I had forgotten about the Gaeltacht and Island areas.

But in fairness the gaeltacht area only covers a part of the entire coastal region and outside of the gaeltacht areas there are no grants. If you look at houses in the areas like Gweedore etc I think its fair to say that most of them have been built by locals

In my townland in gweedore there are 45 houses, 12 lived in by locals the rest holiday homes for people mostly from northern ireland, A lot built by locals to sell to people from anywhere or anyone who will give them enough money, a lot of these houses have been built using thre name of the local person in order to gain permission and then sold on. The council are well aware of this but are not interested in the least. Donegal is mostly spoiled because of greed on the part of the natives who sell the land, natives who build houses and then sell them on, greedy developers who can exploit the market aided and abbetted by councillors, who will sign forms saying people who are not members of the indigenous community are members of the indigenous community in order for them to get planning permission and the councillors know full well whats happening but dont care . Most houses built in our area for northerners are built by local people who are all working and signing on the dole at the same time. The population of donegal has increased by approx 5000 in the lat ten years and in this time about 40000 houses have been built, if thats not overdevelopment what is. Letterkenny is a perfect example of profit driven urban sprawl which results in the doughnut effect in that all the business's open in greenfield sites on the edge of town and the centre dies. At the end of the day it is pure and simple GREED an almighty ignorant scramble for money regardless of the consequences to the environment, neighbours or te future generations.

jimmycrackcorm

Yes - Donegal having such an economic powerhouse economy doesn't need any development whatsoever. Fact is it is ordinary Donegal people who sell and profit from the land sales and as mentioned primarily build them too.

As a fellow Donegal Native - non-pale/englishman once said to me about begrudgery of certain developments in Letterkenny. "It is not the problem that certain people seem to benefit illicitly from certain development decisions! no the problem is that the rest of us aren't getting the same!"

Hands up all those who want to go back to 1980's Donegal? Ok Average Joe - two hands don't count.

Martyr

Hands up all those who want to go back to 1980's Donegal? Ok Average Joe - two hands don't count

its funny you should say that, i talked to a woman a couple of days ago, & she claimed that when she moved here, she felt like she had travelled back in time 20 years.

i really shouldn't be here, jimmycrackcorm.:D

personally, i'm no better off here in donegal regardless of the "development" that has taken place in the last 20 years, i'm still a nobody, i've worked hard in computers for years, but i'm still unemployed.

i have friends with degrees in computer science who work in cafes & pubs, serving tourists..thats the reality of donegal "development" & "progress"
that all these fools in the council keep talking about in the papers..sickens me.
am i a begrudger? probably, but thats just the way i've been brought up in this dump.

no point in moaning about it, i know.

but, truth is donegal is still a toilet for tourists to come & urinate in, with no future for anyone who doesn't own any land or doesn't come from a rich family...like myself.

if you're young, living in poverty, in donegal, you're fecked.

if i don't move away, my only choice is to stick doin a menial job for minimum wage while i watch loads of tourists drive by in there merc 06 heading out to gweedore..etc

so, in that sense, i can understand why there is alot of greed in donegal, but its no different from anywhere else.

whole country is gone tae feck, and there is feck all anybody can do about it

yes, i'm a begrudger, absolutely.
and i don't like northerners! cheeky feckers, you know

muffler

section4 wrote:

The population of donegal has increased by approx 5000 in the lat ten years and in this time about 40000 houses have been built

The CSO figures show a population increase of 9381 in the period 2002 - 2006 - a 4 year period.

I doubt very much if there was half that no. of houses built in the same period

Martyr

The CSO figures show a population increase of 9381 in the period 2002 - 2006 - a 4 year period.

I doubt very much if there was half that no. of houses built in the same period

maybe section4 meant in gaeltacht areas, not donegal overall.

retalivity

kind of offthread i know, but where could i get hold of the census figures? either online or in paper format?

muffler

retalivity wrote:

kind of offthread i know, but where could i get hold of the census figures? either online or in paper format?

Page 21 here

Home page here

retalivity

cheers muffler!!!

having a quick look thru, very interesting reading, but i was more interested in the irish speaking/religion/etc.
that info doesnt seem to have been made available yet...

jimmycrackcorm

Average Joe wrote:

i really shouldn't be here, jimmycrackcorm.:D

personally, i'm no better off here in donegal regardless of the "development" that has taken place in the last 20 years, i'm still a nobody, i've worked hard in computers for years, but i'm still unemployed.

Funny you should say that as you could easily be in my shoes worked hard in computers for years but have to live in Dublin for the work. Hence I await the day I can own my own little holiday home in Donegal.

Didn't go to the RTC many moons ago by any chance?

Martyr

Funny you should say that as you could easily be in my shoes worked hard in computers for years but have to live in Dublin for the work. Hence I await the day I can own my own little holiday home in Donegal.

Didn't go to the RTC many moons ago by any chance?

we're going off topic now, but i'll answer you anyway

i'm self-taught mainly, been studying computers for about 8 years now, in my own free time, not for money.

i did go to RTC, but the course was rubbish & i lost interest fairly quick, left it.
was thinking about goin back in september, but i'd rather not, would prefer working, & yes i realise i will have to move for that.

i'm interested in security, maybe you see me posting on security forum here.

never learned anything while in the RTC, except that there were alot of idiots in it, including lecturers & computer staff.
seems to me, anybody can get into college these days.

all i learned was that college is about doing what you're told to do, & if you don't like it, get out.

its is not about how smart you are, how interested you are in one subject, as most just go for the course they think they can make the most money in.
And i've yet to meet a student or teacher goin to the RTC really passionate about their work, same way i would be.
they're all in it for the money.

college is all about obedience & punctuality..the making of a good worker, a slave to the system.

my point previously was that, with all the hoo-hah about "progress" & "development" in Letterkenny that politicians keep shouting about, the only main jobs HERE in DONEGAL, not DUBLIN are menial type or tourist related.

there is pramerica which require programmers now & then, but they only want programmers who work for nothing & so look abroad.
i've no problem with that, but truth is that, they're only here for tax breaks.

matter of fact, i offered to work for nothing, just to get experience, but they weren't interested.

jimmycrackcorm

There's plenty of building jobs agoing as long as people don't complain about all these new holiday homes.

smashey

Average Joe wrote:

never learned anything while in the RTC, except that there were alot of idiots in it, including lecturers & computer staff.
seems to me, anybody can get into college these days.
all i learned was that college is about doing what you're told to do, & if you don't like it, get out.

its is not about how smart you are, how interested you are in one subject, as most just go for the course they think they can make the most money in.
And i've yet to meet a student or teacher goin to the RTC really passionate about their work, same way i would be.
they're all in it for the money.

college is all about obedience & punctuality..the making of a good worker, a slave to the system.

my point previously was that, with all the hoo-hah about "progress" & "development" in Letterkenny that politicians keep shouting about, the only main jobs HERE in DONEGAL, not DUBLIN are menial type or tourist related.

there is pramerica which require programmers now & then, but they only want programmers who work for nothing & so look abroad.
i've no problem with that, but truth is that, they're only here for tax breaks.

matter of fact, i offered to work for nothing, just to get experience, but they weren't interested.

Average Joe, you seem to have a bit of an attitude. Nobody has a divine right to the perfect job. Sometimes you just have to go where the work is. In your case, that rules out Donegal, but that's life. While i'm not a fan of the way holiday homes have been sprouting up in Donegal, sometimes we should remember that we weren't always so affluent, and a lot of those holiday homes kept quite a few builders going for a long time.

Martyr

There's plenty of building jobs agoing as long as people don't complain about all these new holiday homes

ahaha...very funny :rolleyes:
you just keep working hard there down in dublin, jimmycrackcorm.
we've no shortage of jokers here in donegal, ciaran brogan can testify to that. (being the counties top performer now for the second time running!!)

Average Joe, you seem to have a bit of an attitude. Nobody has a divine right to the perfect job. Sometimes you just have to go where the work is. In your case, that rules out Donegal, but that's life. While i'm not a fan of the way holiday homes have been sprouting up in Donegal, sometimes we should remember that we weren't always so affluent, and a lot of those holiday homes kept a quite a few builders going for a long time.

i don't recall saying anyone (including myself ) had the right to a "perfect job" (whatever that entails)

but..in fairness now, like the man from del monte, expect nothing but the best.
i'm the best trained, best equipped, best educated (ok, maybe not educated), best experienced computer specialist..in the county (probably)

but "progress" & "development" is not a monopoly of the north west, corruption on the other hand, IS..& boy are we proud..yep.

smashey

Average Joe wrote:

i don't recall saying anyone (including myself ) had the right to a "perfect job" (whatever that entails)

but..in fairness now, like the man from del monte, expect nothing but the best.
i'm the best trained, best equipped, best educated (ok, maybe not educated), best experienced computer specialist..in the county (probably)

but "progress" & "development" is not a monopoly of the north west, corruption on the other hand, IS..& boy are we proud..yep.

Well, if you are as good as you say you are, then surely you should have no problem getting a job? Or is it a case of you think anybody who would give you a job is either an idiot or a slave to the system?

Martyr

Well, if you are as good as you say you are, then surely you should have no problem getting a job? Or is it a case of you think anybody who would give you a job is either an idiot or a slave to the system?

i know, smashey, i just have a bad attitude, thats all.
there was a good news story on the front of the donegal peoples press about a web design company sponsored by failte, which turned out to be a ..well, read the link below.

http://www.donegaldemocrat.com/story/6836

The whole saga came to light when an outraged American school teacher, Joan Carfora from St. Petersburg in Florida, who holidays regularly in Donegal, alerted friends in this county after inadvertently logging on to the forum section of the website while she searched for Bed and Breakfast accommodation in Donegal.

ROFL

byte

Hehe! But does the content of that forum the sole responsibility of the design company?

bettlebrox

Average Joe wrote:

i know, smashey, i just have a bad attitude, thats all.
there was a good news story on the front of the donegal peoples press about a web design company sponsored by failte, which turned out to be a ..well, read the link below.

http://www.donegaldemocrat.com/story/6836

ROFL

Then there are these 2 lines from the article:

This website is getting 200,000 hits a day and is very popular.

And a paragraph before it says:

...said this was what was described as a "bot" which was short for a robot.

"Occasionally these things will go out and "attack" a site and automatically insert messages.

200,000 hits a day is a lot of hits, and I'd be suspicious of so many hits on such a site. Do they not think that bots could be responsible for many of these. The forum is down for now, but I'd guess they didn't implement some basic bot protection (such as text in picture U have to input). These days any system on the web is open for attack, and most of it is automated attacks scanning for vulnerabilities. And security is a tough job! Guess I'd better stop now as this ain't a technology forum!

On another note:

college is all about obedience & punctuality..the making of a good worker, a slave to the system.

U make it sound like secondary school! Maybe it the RTC's? But when I went to college in Dublin, and over here in Boston I found it much more flexible and open-minded that secondary school. To be honest working as a lecturer at an RTC wouldn't be bad. 3 months holidays a year & loads of time to consult.

muffler

Back on topic again. Has anyone had the chance to study the new County Development Plan yet?

I havent seen the details yet but I do know that the County managers proposal to prohibit holiday homes in certain areas of the county was rejected by the members of the council.

Martyr

I havent seen the details yet but I do know that the County managers proposal to prohibit holiday homes in certain areas of the county was rejected by the members of the council.

i'd like to know primary motives of members in the council.
why did they object?
i don't want to speculate, but they aren't telling us very much.

why isn't the information published in newspapers for everyone to read?
somebody should set up another newspaper in donegal, one that isn't afraid to talk openly about important issues.

muffler

Just a bit of an update on this. The full text of the new development plan will not be available for inspection or purchase until August 8th at the earliest.

That shows how important it is to the Council officials and members to update the public on something that will have far reaching implications for a hell of a lot of people in this County :mad:

section4

muffler wrote:

The CSO figures show a population increase of 9381 in the period 2002 - 2006 - a 4 year period.

I doubt very much if there was half that no. of houses built in the same period

8000 plannning aplications this year, 90% which will be granted, 10 years at 8000 is 80,000, but to err completely on the side of caution we will presume only half that figure which is 40,000.

muffler

section4 wrote:

8000 plannning aplications this year, 90% which will be granted, 10 years at 8000 is 80,000, but to err completely on the side of caution we will presume only half that figure which is 40,000.

8000 planning applications does not mean 8000 houses. I think it would be safe to say that of all the applications this year 30% of them would have been for outline planning permission, 15% - 20% for commercial developments, 10% for retentions and dont forget about the huge number of applications this year for agricultural buildings.

The reason the numbers are so high this year is because of the introduction of the new development plan

jimmycrackcorm

Our company has to put in a planning application just to change the interior of an existing office due to a designation change.

muffler

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Our company has to put in a planning application just to change the interior of an existing office due to a designation change.

Must be a material change of use i would assume

bettlebrox

Interesting article about "bungalow blight" in Northern Ireland:

"Tracts of County Donegal, on the west coast, where there has been pressure from holiday homes, have suff ered the most. In some districts, second homes outnumber those occupied by locals by four to one; in winter, the large villages turn into ghost towns. The county council there belatedly introduced measures restricting home ownership for those not living locally."

And then there is a EU report on Ireland for new EU countries and how not to create urban sprawl:

It reportedly says "extremely passive" planning policies have also led to undesirable urban sprawl in towns and villages throughout Ireland.

WunderFull

Too many holiday homes around home, they are not even designed to fit in with the countryside. Concrete mansions all over the shop do not help the scenery.

The lack of planning is certainly in most of the case due to a lacklustre effort by DCC, planners etc. What people can get away with, they will do.