Car crash etiquette

Cormic

I was driving home on the M11 this evening when I encountered a tailback. It turned out that the tailback was caused by a two car collision in the outside lane.

There appeared to be only superficial damage to both cars (of course there could have been more) but there they were holding up a motorway during rush hour.

My question is, what is the correct process here? Do you leave the cars as is until the Garda arrive or do you move them to allow traffic to pass?

Stark

The gardaí only need to be called when there were injuries. If the gardaí have been called, you definitely need to leave the cars where they are so the gardaí can assess the scene.

Afaik, you're also required to leave the cars where they are while you exchange insurance details and fill out an accident report form.

I reckon even if they had moved their cars into the hard shoulder, there'd still be tailback due to rubberneckers.

mike65

Well it only takes one party to phone the cops and you're stuck. In the US I belive they take a hard line view on busy roads and simply shove vehicles onto the verge.

There should be guidlines but the agrieved victim is bound to try to get the cops involved. They might say "no-one hurt therefore not interested" but the chaos is caused by then.

Mike.

Cormic

Stark wrote:

I reckon even if they had moved their cars into the hard shoulder, there'd still be tailback due to rubberneckers.

Good point...

Anan1

Always carry a camera in the glovebox. That way, you can take loads of pictures & then move the cars.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Anan1 wrote:

Always carry a camera in the glovebox. That way, you can take loads of pictures & then move the cars.

same as that.... great idea.

ballooba

I keep my old digital camera in the glovebox. Better than selling it on eBay for peanuts.

Fey!

And make sure said camera has batteries/film/memory card. Or just throw a disposable in there.

netwhizkid

A digital camera in the car is a brilliant idea (old or new they are for peanuts anyway these days). You can use it for photographing the License plates of all the cars around where you park yours encase some langer in a MPV or SUV comes along and dents your precious beauty.

It is handy for photographing accidents and for when you are out and about and want to photograph something. Then again I use the camera on mobile to photograph potential denters. Baby on Board and any female paraphernalia is like a calling card of denters the country over.

Sleipnir

ballooba wrote:

I keep my old digital camera in the glovebox. Better than selling it on eBay for peanuts.

I'll give you 5 brazil nuts.

You could always rinh the Gardai and tell them you hurt your elbow or something!

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

netwhizkid wrote:

A digital camera in the car is a brilliant idea (old or new they are for peanuts anyway these days). You can use it for photographing the License plates of all the cars around where you park yours encase some langer in a MPV or SUV comes along and dents your precious beauty.

It is handy for photographing accidents and for when you are out and about and want to photograph something. Then again I use the camera on mobile to photograph potential denters. Baby on Board and any female paraphernalia is like a calling card of denters the country over.

do not use a digital cameras for an accident. digital images are not admissible in court ( as far as i know) only film or negative.
tho ould disposable are the job for an accident.

Beruthiel

According to the rule book, you only call the cops if someone is injured.
Mark the road if needs be, move the cars off to the side so as not to obstruct traffic.
If nothing much has happened to the cars, insurance details should be swapped and just move along, no need for anything else.
It's total stupidity to hold up the whole road for a tiny bump.

Alun

Beruthiel wrote:

According to the rule book, you only call the cops if someone is injured.

But, and this is a big 'but', this was on a motorway, and on the outside lane to boot, and so the cars involved would have to be moved across two lanes of traffic to the hard shoulder. There may potentially also be glass or other debris on the carriageway. Quite a different situation, safety wise, to a minor bump at low speed on a city road. What about, for instance, the insurance aspects if you as a civilian were trying to stop traffic to get the cars across to the hard shoulder and you were hit? Definitely a job for the Gardai whether anyones injured or not IMHO.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Beruthiel wrote:

According to the rule book, you only call the cops if someone is injured.
Mark the road if needs be, move the cars off to the side so as not to obstruct traffic.
If nothing much has happened to the cars, insurance details should be swapped and just move along, no need for anything else.

Mate of mine was dinged by a van a few years ago. Did not call the cops per the above. When he went to make a claim the other driver (who had admitted responsibility at the scene) basically told him to take a hike, that he had no proof. Without a police report (or photos - I guess most people not have a decent res camera though) what is to stop this happening. Am I missing something?

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

PaschalNee wrote:

Mate of mine was dinged by a van a few years ago. Did not call the cops per the above. When he went to make a claim the other driver (who had admitted responsibility at the scene) basically told him to take a hike, that he had no proof. Without a police report (or photos - I guess most people not have a decent res camera though) what is to stop this happening. Am I missing something?

no good, digital cameras and the law don't mix.
digital images are not admissible in court

Anan1

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

no good, digital cameras and the law don't mix.
digital images are not admissible in court

How do you know this?

Gregor Samsa

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

no good, digital cameras and the law don't mix.
digital images are not admissible in court

I don't think it's that simple. The other party *could* question the authenticity of digital images, but it wouldn't be hard to get an expert to examine the images and vouch that they weren't PhotoShopped. Editing leaves artifacts in the images that are pretty easy to spot, even on a printout. Film prints and negs can be manipulated too (but obviously not as easily).

Don't the City Council tow trucks in Dublin take digital snaps of the cars before they take them away, to show that damage hasn't been caused. They wouldn't be doing that unless they were of some legal value.

IANAL

Dilbert75

And digital cameras are used for speeding cameras - just not here yet (until they're privatised)

mmenarry

phutyle wrote:

I don't think it's that simple. The other party *could* question the authenticity of digital images, but it wouldn't be hard to get an expert to examine the images and vouch that they weren't PhotoShopped. Editing leaves artifacts in the images that are pretty easy to spot, even on a printout. Film prints and negs can be manipulated too (but obviously not as easily).

Don't the City Council tow trucks in Dublin take digital snaps of the cars before they take them away, to show that damage hasn't been caused. They wouldn't be doing that unless they were of some legal value.

IANAL

You nearly have it there.

Digital is just as much admissable in court as film.
However, it is easier to put doubt in the minds of judge/jury in court as to whether or not the photos have been tampered with digital.

Don't forget - once the courtroom doors shut, what's written in the lawbooks gets put to one side. It's prosecution vs defence then, i.e who's got the better solicitor/barrister.

I've seen dozens of cases go "against the odds" due to one side having a much better team.

I give our guys a "bump pack" - containing a disposable (film) camera and a checksheet/accident form. Worth its weight in gold at a bump/crash. The amount of stuff you really should get is impossible to remember with the adrenaline going. When they have a sheet with blanks to fill in, we get all the relevant info.

Having said that, I'm a numpty and don't have one in my car! (resolves to put one in the spare wheel tomorrow)

M.

Oh, nearly forgot - you can only call the guards if an injury has occurred. I tell my lads that if they want the guards to show (suspicion of an uninsured driver, etc) then I'm very sorry about their sore neck/back!

leahcim

I'm not sure sure I would risk using digital images as evidance.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/justice/evidence/photographic_evidence.html

In order for a photograph to be admitted in evidence, it is first necessary to prove its authenticity. The photographer must prove that he or she took the photograph and the person who has developed the photograph must also give a statement that the negatives were untouched.

If the images were questioned it could cost you alot of time and money trying to find a computer graphics expert to testify.

Victor

The courts have accepted digital images when accompanied by sworn affidavits.

The flip side of someone denying a digital image is that they are committing perjury, that can get you 7 years, not worth it for a fender bender.

A spray can of paint is also useful to mark where the vehicles stopped.

Also note where the broken glass is, as this is generally a better indicator of the point of impact than where the vehicles stopped.

zilog_jones

Does the meta data in JPEG files not say if the image has been edited at any stage or not? Then again if it does, I can see it being pretty easy to edit that and fake the timestamps...

prospect

Back to the OP:

I posted about this before. But briefly:

I was in the middle of a 3 car pile up at the lights at Kill on the Naas road a few years back. It was christmas time and pretty busy. I called the guards who instructed us to stay put, (even though there was no one injured and the guards knew that). The first car had no visable damage and the lady in it decided to continue on her way. The guards were actually mad that she left the scene when instructed not to.

Anyway, a few months later my wife was in an accident at the same spot. She called me, and I told her not to move the cars and call the guards. I got to the accident before the guards did (unsurprisingly) and a ban garda eventually showed up and proceeded to tear into my wife (who was already visably upset) for holding up traffic. She was a pure b itch about it.

So, it seems, you cannot win.......