1/2 TT Hand

ianmc38

UTG is a reasonable TAG with 22/12. He has just reloaded to 200.

I am on the button with TT.

He opens for 8 UTG.

I reraise to 25.

He flat calls.

Flop (53)

2d3d7c

He leads for 35. I call.

Turn (123)

9s

He pushes.



Action?

eoghan104

i fold here what hand are you beating???

charlesanto

eoghan104 wrote:

i fold here what hand are you beating???

A7, A9

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

i fold here what hand are you beating???

What hand pushes this turn?

eoghan104

charlesanto wrote:

A7, A9

it screams over pair though..... maybe jj or qq. surley if its a7 or a9 he should be wary of the flat call on the flop and not push such a weak holding??

eoghan104

ianmc38 wrote:

What hand pushes this turn?

i think jj or qq here more often than not and a small percentage of the time AKd. you said he was TAG so i dont think he calls a preflop raise with a7 or a9!

ianmc38

eoghan104 wrote:

i think jj or qq here more often than not and a small percentage of the time AKd. you said he was TAG so i dont think he calls a preflop raise with a7 or a9!

I would say it is rarely to never A7. A9s is probably in his opening range but I'm not sure if he'd call a raise with it.

eoghan104

ianmc38 wrote:

What hand pushes this turn?

so what did you think he might be pushing with?? i suppose he could have 77 but agin is this in his range for calling your raise???

pok3rplaya

fold.

charlesanto

I don't think he pushes with an over pair or a set.
He wants you off the pot - he's holding Ad9d.:D

Bandana boy

you would want to know more than what is in the post to call

cooker3

I think overall it's a fold but when opponants make these sort of unexpected plays a lot of the time I find at least, it's a bluff or semi bluff.

ianmc38

On the flop he bets just over half the pot. Looks like a standard continuation bet to me. There is a non scary turn card and he suddenly pushes.

There are very few draws that I could be playing that are consistent with my pre/postflop action so far. If he thinks I'm on a diamond draw and doesn't want to give me a cheap card, then why does he bet so little on the flop?

A set rarely to never pushes this turn. Why would TT+ feel the need to push here either?

Bp!

ianmc38 wrote:

On the flop he bets just over half the pot. Looks like a standard continuation bet to me.

Yes but you took control of the pot preflop and now he has come out betting into the raiser. this would be inline with a medium pair 77-JJ to "test the waters"

You smooth called here which may look like overcards making him think you were chasing and pushed to force you to fold. He goes all in for 140 into a pot of ~ 125

Your only really beatin a small number of hands or a bluff, possible reraising to 90 or 100 on flop here would be best?

El Stuntman

seems consistent with a badly played AA and now he's scared?

Ollieboy

Why flat call the bet on the flop, with 1010 would you not be re-raising to find out where you were, now its going to cost you a lot more to find out where you are. He might have had a underpair and feels your not that strong and that the flop as missed you and might be on a bit of tilt, ie 88.

I dont think he as JJ/QQ as he should have re-raised preflop, but this would explain the push on the turn if he has any of these hands.

KK is more likely, I think its a fold, you should have re-raised on the flop, now your not the aggressor in the hand and should fold. I dont think he would have raised preflop with A7 and called a raise with it and A9 doesn't look that likely.

Dont think its a bluff either, as he raised utg in the first place, so as some sort of hand.

eoghan104

what was the outcome anyway ian?

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

Why flat call the bet on the flop, with 1010 would you not be re-raising to find out where you were .

No. If I raise here he'll 3 bet hands that beat me and fold worse hands. If he flat calls then I'm in a world of pain. If I raise i'm also playing for my stack.

Raising also takes his chance of bluffing away. If I raise it will be because I think i'm ahead, not for information. Raising for info is for suckers. 2+2 is a wealth of information on this subject. I used to be in the raise to find where you are camp. Now I realise it's generally bad.

Ollieboy wrote:

Now its going to cost you a lot more to find out where you are. He might have had a underpair and feels your not that strong and that the flop as missed you and might be on a bit of tilt, ie 88

I dont think he as JJ/QQ as he should have re-raised preflop, but this would explain the push on the turn if he has any of these hands.

KK is more likely, I think its a fold, you should have re-raised on the flop, now your not the aggressor in the hand and should fold. I dont think he would have raised preflop with A7 and called a raise with it and A9 doesn't look that likely.

Why should he have reraised JJ/QQ preflop and not KK/AA?

Why would KK push on the turn? That won't achieve anything other than get TT-QQ to consider folding and AA and sets to call.

I agree A7 and A9 are unlikely holdings. A9s would be extremely marginal.

I think villains play in this hand is at best suspicious.

Results after lunch

Bandana boy

Ollieboy wrote:

Why flat call the bet on the flop, with 1010 would you not be re-raising to find out where you were, .

Dude has 60 of his 200 in the middle
Assuming you dont min raise and he goes all in you are now priced into the call what information do you get ?

Push on flop is fine if you think your ahead
Call is fine if you think he will push FD or A9

but i dont get that from post

I would like to have some information to call here but would fold as posted

willis

eoghan104 wrote:

i think jj or qq here more often than not and a small percentage of the time AKd.

Agreed, maybe AQd and 88 can be thrown in imo. I feel JJ most of time, although I agree it is strange play. He could be bluffing here with 2overs figuring you missed. I call, if he has JJ then so be it but imo only QQ/JJ is played like this that we lose to, the rest of his range we beat,unless he played a set very strangely

Bp!

True, the Villans stack is quite low to put any sorta raise in on the lfop without commiting yourself to the hand.

However he bet into the raiser on the flop OOP, this can frequently be big hands (like flopped sets and puttin Hero on big pair hopin for the reraise) though Im confused on his turn bet. If his hand was very big is the push not slightly defensive? Sayin that , could this be his stack is so shallow he might as well throw it all in or is he tryin to push you off a hand?

The most difficult part of the hand is his stack size, the turn bet is 50/50 to me whether hes pushin you off the winning or he wants all his money in now encase your drawing and you miss on the river...hmmm I call

Gholimoli

Ian this is a fold almost every time (unless your dealing with a maniac)
He has opened with a raise UTG then called your reraise out of position.
Then he leads 35 in to 50 pot after flop comes rag.he does not need to make a continuation bet here as you were the pre flop reraiser.if he wanted to make a probe bet it would generally be lower.
Now seen as your both deep his range for calling your raise would prob include any PP going for set value .the problem is if he had a lower PP than yours 4 of them just made a set.if he had a higher pair than yours well then you were behind anyway.
The only hands you beat here is really AK and AQ(if he is a donkey which he dosent sound like one).
Also the push on the turn is not really an over bet .
He is betting $150 in to a $130 or so bet so its really a pot sized bet.
I would make that bet with a set on that board if I had say JJ or QQ(flush draw there +over cards to protect from) and the way you have played your hand looks like AK ,AQ or basically an unmade hand.

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

Why should he have reraised JJ/QQ preflop and not KK/AA?

Why would KK push on the turn? That won't achieve anything other than get TT-QQ to consider folding and AA and sets to call.

I agree A7 and A9 are unlikely holdings. A9s would be extremely marginal.

I think villains play in this hand is at best suspicious.

Results after lunch

Ok Agreed, if you raise on the flop, your more or less commit anyway, but I dont agree with your comments about betting or raising for info, sometimes this is cheap way of finding out who as a hand and how strong, specially if your in first position, I dont do it much myself, would rather check and see what bets people make and spot a betting pattern to there game.

If I had KK/AA, a flat called would be correct, as it lets me check the flop and lets you hang yourself when I show weakness, but as he bet out, that kind of rules that out I suppose, I would rather reraise or push with JJ/QQ here and try to push out hands like AK/AQ etc preflop, or I sometimes take a flop and than bet out depending on its texture, so I suppose he could be mixing it up here also.

Pushing with KK would be fine, as I would be worried about getting rivered if you cant laydown AK/AQ etc

But he raised out of position so I cant see this been a bluff and than called a big raise out of position.

Either that or he's had 2 bottles of wine

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

Ok Agreed, if you raise on the flop, your more or less commit anyway, but I dont agree with your comments about betting or raising for info, sometimes this is cheap way of finding out who as a hand and how strong, specially if your in first position, I dont do it much myself, would rather check and see what bets people make and spot a betting pattern to there game.

He has bet 35 on the flop. A standard raise would be to 100. We have now just spent 50 big blinds to find out where we are. That's not cheap.

Hitman Actual

Ollieboy wrote:

If I had KK/AA, a flat called would be correct, as it lets me check the flop and lets you hang yourself when I show weakness, but as he bet out, that kind of rules that out I suppose, I would rather reraise or push with JJ/QQ here and try to push out hands like AK/AQ etc preflop, or I sometimes take a flop and than bet out depending on its texture, so I suppose he could be mixing it up here also.

I dont play a lot of cash games, but surely pushing preflop with JJ/QQ isn't good strategy. And why would you want to fold out AK/AQ anyway? You're ahead of those.

I dont think it's necessarily a straight forward fold. You only have to win 35% of the time for a profitable call, so if he pushes with AK/AQ on the turn a lot, you could be priced in. But then again, I'm not a good cash game player.

willis

ianmc38 wrote:

Results after lunch

You get very long lunches man!

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

He has bet 35 on the flop. A standard raise would be to 100. We have now just spent 50 big blinds to find out where we are. That's not cheap.

I wasn't talking about this hand, I've already agreed with you on this hand, I was meaning other hands or tourney play. To say that people that bet out for info are suckers is a bit harsh, seen most of the top players in the world would do this as standard bet for info.

Anyway, different views for different players

Ollieboy

lenny_leonard wrote:

I dont play a lot of cash games, but surely pushing preflop with JJ/QQ isn't good strategy. And why would you want to fold out AK/AQ anyway? You're ahead of those.

You would call a 300 bet with AK preflop?

Some players on tribece would easily push with these hands preflop, I would be inclined to fold preflop without been sure that this guy didnt have AA/KK

Bandana boy

Betting for info might work* if stacks are very deep
but once 25 has gone in pre stacks are less deep in relation to pot

You bet out what happens and what info do you get from it ?
Have you an example of how an info bet made you money?
Okay so some top players do this** but what they are really doing is seeing will a bet take down the pot
If you change your strategy from betting for info with marginal hands to betting to take down the pot with marginal hands and adjust your amount accordingly i think you will find this +ev***



* Does not work *
** no top players do this **
*** results may vary***

5starpool

Surely instead of raising for info you should be raising when you think you have the best hand or when you think your opponent will believe you have the best hand. Unless of course you are sure you have the best hand then you want to look like you are betting for info........I know that you know that I know that you know. I think.

Hitman Actual

Ollieboy wrote:

You would call a 300 bet with AK preflop?

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I think you were saying that if you have JJ/QQ, you should raise pf hoping that AK/AQ folds. Is this a sound strategy? Genuine question; I just dont see how it is.

Bandana boy

where as you should raise with QQ JJ pre flop I dont think you should neccesarily 3 bet it

Ollieboy

lenny_leonard wrote:

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I think you were saying that if you have JJ/QQ, you should raise pf hoping that AK/AQ folds. Is this a sound strategy? Genuine question; I just dont see how it is.

Len, I wouldn't call a all-in from a solid player for 300 preflop with AK or AQ.

I'm guessing you feel you would from what you've said.

Or are we misunderstanding each other?

Hitman Actual

Ollieboy wrote:

Or are we misunderstanding each other?

I think we must be. But if I have JJ, and you show me AK, you folding to an all-in raise pre-flop means that you've played the hand correctly and I haven't, hence I'm losing money.

5starpool

Ollieboy wrote:

Or are we misunderstanding each other?

Yes

Norwich Fan Rob

i suggest he almost definetely has JJ or QQ.

he open raises to 8, as u would with these, he calls a re raise but doesnt come over the top, as u would also with JJ or QQ.

He can have AA, but i think he has JJ most often.
(assuming hes not a muppet , in which case he could have anything, u shoulda seen i guy i played last night, looooool)

ianmc38

Results boys and girls.

The prize for guessing the hand goes to Mr. Willis. The villain in this hand had AdQd so he had lots of live ones but thankfully missed them all on the river.

Hitman Actual

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

he open raises to 8, as u would with these, he calls a re raise but doesnt come over the top, as u would also with JJ or QQ.

Is re-reraising oop standard with JJ/QQ? Especially with villains stack size?

ianmc38

lenny_leonard wrote:

Is re-reraising oop standard with JJ/QQ? Especially with villains stack size?

No re-reraising oop with JJ/QQ is nearly always donkey stuff unless you're against a serial lp raiser.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Results boys and girls.

The prize for guessing the hand goes to Mr. Willis. The villain in this hand had AdQd so he had lots of live ones but thankfully missed them all on the river.

15 outs nearly 30%+ pot equity (could be wrong here but I think its there about)
AQd or Akd was pretty much the only hands you were ahead of in his range if even.
His range would include JJ+, 99,22,33,77 and against that range you were drawing very thin. Getting only 2:1 on your money I think you had an easy fold there.

Norwich Fan Rob

if i make an open raise, and get re raised 3 times as much, i would almost never re raise oop with JJ and QQ, unless i knew villian was a big A rag merchant.

ianmc38

Gholi I don't ever include a set in that range. Unless he puts me on a flush draw and doesn't want another diamond. He knows I don't have 8T or 45. 2 diamonds maybe. I think the only hands i was possibly behind were JJ/QQ and I dont expect them to open shove the turn.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Gholi I don't ever include a set in that range. Unless he puts me on a flush draw and doesn't want another diamond. He knows I don't have 8T or 45. 2 diamonds maybe. I think the only hands i was possibly behind were JJ/QQ and I dont expect them to open shove the turn.

why not,
its a 140 bet bet in to a 135 pot?
your telling me you would never make a pot size bet on the turn with your set when there is a flush draw?

ianmc38

Depends on the opponent really. Sometimes i'll push with top set on a drawless flop for 200BBs.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Depends on the opponent really. Sometimes i'll push with top set on a drawless flop for 200BBs.

thats what i mean so the pot sized bet here is not really out of the ordinary and you cant rule out a set becuase of the bet size.