Luas - An Astounding Triumph for Rail Transport Development in Ireland.

Transport21 Fan

The Golden age of rail transport in Ireland moves on...

Developer to reap €400m on Luas rezoning decision

02 July 2006 By Richard Curran
Property developer Pat Doherty is on track to make up to €400 million from a rezoning decision by South Dublin County Council (SDCC) linked to the extension of the Luas to Citywest.

Doherty’s company, Harcourt Developments, stands to be the biggest winner from the proposal, by him and two other developers, to pay €13 million each for a new light rail spur near Saggart in southwest Dublin.

Citywest Hotel owner Jim Mansfield and Davy Hickey Properties will also see the value of their land along the new line dramatically rise in value.

But Harcourt offered to put in €13 million for the Luas on condition that 70 acres it owns near Saggart would be rezoned from greenbelt to residential use. SDCC voted in favour of rezoning at a meeting last month.

Harcourt bought the land from trucking millionaire Pino Harris five years ago for €23 million. The company, owned by Donegal property developer Doherty, tried to get this land rezoned in 2004, but was turned down, partly because of insufficient public transport in the area.

The SDCC proposal involves a change to the existing county development plan; it will go forward for public consultation in the coming weeks. The rezoning proposal includes 50 acres of residential units, plus 20 acres of community projects. The project will see Harcourt build a school, a park-and-ride facility for the Luas and an all-weather football pitch.

The remaining 50 acres of the Harcourt site will be rezoned for apartments and houses, with a mixture of high, medium and low-density residential units. High density in that area is around 50 units per acre.

Property experts estimate that Harcourt could build an average of 30 units per acre resulting in 1,500 new houses and apartments being built. Based on current house prices in the area, Harcourt could sell the undeveloped site for around €200 million, experts estimate.

If the company goes ahead and develops the houses, its profit could be between €320 million and €400 million. Harcourt Developments declined to comment when contacted last Friday.

Labour councillor Eamonn Maloney said: ‘‘Doherty will make a killing’’, adding that the Luas could not go ahead in the area without Harcourt’s backing. ‘‘I was against it at first but, b ecause of the nature of the project, and when you look at the overall benefits it will bring to the area, I changed my mind,” he said.

Jim Mansfield will see just under five acres of his land at Citywest rezoned under the current proposal, wh ich could see him make a profit of around €37 million once it has been developed.

Davy Hickey Properties is not due to get any specific rezoning uplift from the current proposal, but the arrival of Luas will see the value of its property portfolio in the area rise by tens of millions of euro.

Capt'n Midnight

:rolleyes:

Wonderful - SDCC are the same muppets that have covered bus lane signs to Clondalkin and have a stop/go system over the canal beside Adamstown. Do they actually have a transport plan or are they relying on backscratching from developers. €39m is a lot. But if it goes over budget will us taxpayers have to stump up the rest. Will the re-zoning only take place when the Luas extension is openeed or will they re-zone first and then look for a loophole, what guarantees do we have ?

On a general note
In the unlikely event that it's found later that there were brown envelopes involved in any of our current projects what would happen ? Many of our current infrastructure porblems stem from stuff like that in the past and no doubt there are others we don't know about. And we take the hit.

The luas could be extended from Saggart on to Baldonnel if it was used for commercial traffic - but it would take forever to get into town.

BrianD

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Golden age of rail transport in Ireland moves on...

Hard to know if you are being cynical or actually regard the contents of the news report as positive. It is a major concern that extensions to the two tram lines seem to be driven by developers to justify their planning applications rather than a planned approach to public transport. It seems that the Luas is the mantra - and extension or branch will satisfy the public transportation needs of any property developer. The RPA seem to be happy to entertain these plans. Then again the RPA really don't know much about public transport given their record to date.

Transport21fan has made a number of disparaging remarks about various CIE companies - some of them justified others not - and then points to the glowing success of the RPA. In reality there is little difference between the two. Both take their instruction from the Government. If successive Governments had invested in CIE over the years then we wouldn't have the work culture that is in CIE and having to undertake a huge investment programme to bring it back up to the scratch.

The reality is that despite its recent inception, the RPA is equally flawed and will become another CIE. It made a dogs dinner of project managing the two Luas lines and judging by its public consultation so far on the metro it will continue this tradition.

I think the Luas is great but in reality they built the wrong lines. Of course the RPA will say nothing as they will take their instructure from the government just like CIE. A metro line would have been more apt for the Red line to Tallaght and the same for the Green line. The RPA are now going to extend the Green line to Cherrywood resulting in overloading. In reality, the bus is faster for anyone who wants to get to town. A monumental infrastructure planning failure presided by the RPA.

Transport21 Fan

I am being serious. The future of rail development in Ireland is looking good when the fatcats are falling over themselves to fund it or get it near their developments. Not too long ago they wanted "mosherways" and nothing else. We have the success of Luas to thank for this.

Personally, I beleive that light rail is the panacea to much of the planning mistakes of the past. It is a highly flexible rail system which can pentrate areas of bad planning leading to increased densities and create a public transport culture in car dependent neighbourhoods.

I can't bring myself to love CIE and respect their product, becuase it is a shoddy, fifth-rate exceuse for public transport and always will be no matter how much money you throw at it.

You simply cannot expect world class public transport from as semi-state company whoes primary function is to keep Mallow train station a family business. I know it hurts some people to read this and I have stated there are some good things and good people in CIE.

Honestly, after the Mallow circus last week what more proof do we need that CIE are a lost cause.

paulm17781

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Personally, I beleive that light rail is the panacea to much of the planning mistakes of the past. It is a highly flexible rail system which can pentrate areas of bad planning leading to increased densities and create a public transport culture in car dependent neighbourhoods.

I'd agree with that to an extent. My only worry is how long it will be until these lines or overcapacity or the space they use is needed. I would prefer to see developers working to build underground systems rather that trams.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I can't bring myself to love CIE and respect their product, becuase it is a shoddy, fifth-rate exceuse for public transport and always will be no matter how much money you throw at it.

Aren't you the guy who "Welcomed Taoiseach's Dismissal of Dublin Metro in Favour of Extending the DART." ??

Transport21 Fan

paulm17781 wrote:

Aren't you the guy who "Welcomed Taoiseach's Dismissal of Dublin Metro in Favour of Extending the DART." ??

Yes, but that was a crap metro which at the time was vastly inferior to what we are getting now. Myself and Derek were brought in as public consultants on the original metro and we were shocked at what the RPA were offerning at the time I made that statement. It had to be said, and it started the ball rolling towards the fab metro we are getting now.

I stand by that statement and always will - becuase at the time the Arrow to Gorey was a better urban rail service that what the RPA had planned as a metro back then and all these projects were all in competition for funding and the best project was the one which deserve the funding. This was back in the days when the RPA were claming that 30M trams for the Red Line were also fine. Since then the RPA have greatly matured and wised-up - credit were credit due to them.

What's wrong with me changing opinion based on changing circumstances? I used to think the Western Rail Corridor was a good idea many years ago and then I took a closer look and saw it for the joke it was. If the RPA started building their orignal stupid metro tomorrow, I would say scrap it and give the money to CIE.

The ballgame changed when the RPA started making sense and produced a proper metro - P11 multi-aspect approach to attacking the original metro paid off big time. Some the reason for this was me going on the Gerry Ryan show and playing the RPA off against CIE.

In the end we got a fantastic metro and not some marooned yoke between O'Connell Street and Dublin Airport. I would have supported WestonTrack's WRC ideas over that.

I make no apology for being devious, boring or obnoxious if it delivers the result at the end of the day. You have to play the game according to your own rules if that's the only advatage you have. In 2006 we got a super metro, 40 meter trams coming, the Interconnector and WestonTrack's grand plan to connect Sligo with Limerick for half a billion Euros and 750 passengers a day is in ruins.

Result. It ain't always pretty, but you tell me it didn't work.

paulm17781

Quote T21Fan.....

I agree with you 100%, your harsh view is CIE is just radically different from what you were advocating 2 years ago. As you said, credit where credit is due.

Vazelothir

BrianD wrote:

In reality, the bus is faster for anyone who wants to get to town. A monumental infrastructure planning failure presided by the RPA.

What planet are you on? Red line maybe, green line never in a month of sundays!

dowlingm

BrianD

exactly what's classic about it? The metro was a crap idea, they made it less crap, it became more supportable.

What do you think T21 is - an opposition politician in the business of being "agin" things?

aliveandkicking

paulm17781 wrote:

Quote T21Fan.....

I agree with you 100%, your harsh view is CIE is just radically different from what you were advocating 2 years ago.

But very similar to 3 years ago
http://www.platform11.org/media/press_release.php?year=2003&no=pr_004.html

monument

BrianD wrote:

Transport21fan has made a number of disparaging remarks about various CIE companies - some of them justified others not - and then points to the glowing success of the RPA. In reality there is little difference between the two. Both take their instruction from the Government. If successive Governments had invested in CIE over the years then we wouldn't have the work culture that is in CIE and having to undertake a huge investment programme to bring it back up to the scratch....

No matter how many times you say this to T21fan the RPA will be still be Gods.

MiniD

Articles like the one above really bother me. The red line is running over capicity, to a point where I can no longer use it in the mornings. This morning I was lucky to squeeze on, and only because somebody got off the tram. Other mornings I have to walk to the bus, despite having bought a pre paid Luas ticket.
I was amused last week when RPA decided that making a profit ahead of schedule was somthing positive. Surely, any regulay Luas user was banging their heads agains the windows of the packed tram reading this. The fact that you have reached profits ahead of schedule shows lack of planning and bad management.
The red line service is stretched far beyond the limit it was designed for, and while it may be quicker than the bus at peak hours, outside peak times it is a lot slower. The promised frequency of every 5 minutes is not there at weekends, infact a gap of 15 minutes is not uncommon, and if you decide to wait those 15 minutes, you'll be lucky to squeeze onto a packed tram.
The Luas has been a great success, that can't be denied, but sort out the problems you have first before you extend the line any further.

Diaspora

Articles like the one above really bother me. The red line is running over capicity, to a point where I can no longer use it in the mornings. This morning I was lucky to squeeze on, and only because somebody got off the tram. Other mornings I have to walk to the bus, despite having bought a pre paid Luas ticket.

You see that is the rub; post re-zoning lego like estates will spring up and the Luas to the CC will be over-capacity with 2-5 years. It will be 2015 or 8 years at the very earliest before the interconnector solves the Kildare line situation not to mention Portlaoise, Tullamore and Kilkenny.

Under no circumstances should this development go through anything other than the same rigorous checks as what Adamstown was refined by.

The one winner will be Citywest which will provide outbound commuters whatever happens.

dermo88

Luas is a triumph. But it should always be remembered that it is a solution for the problems yesterday, when a solution for today and tomorrow should have been on the cards.

It reminds me of an article I found in my parents attic, from December 1978, in the Irish Press.

"The same organisation that closed the Harcourt Street line, seems to think Electric trains are going to be the solution to all our transport problems"

The same article goes on to outline the proposals, which were for a much more comprehensive DART network than we have now.

I simply cannot believe, in spite of the "lost decade", between 1979 and 1990 that Dublin has made so little progress, whereas in that SAME time period, many European and Asian cities have been able to start from scratch and do a far better job. Other countries seem to say "Lets build the best we can today, for tomorrow". Ireland "Lets build it, and it will do for now", thereby leading to a SNAFU not much later on.

I was two years old then. I am almost 30 now. Granted, we have gone from rotten push/pull units with passengers having to use umbrellas in the coach when it rained to nice modern DART units. We have gone from a pure bus service in Tallaght, which could not be guaranteed to get anyone to the city centre by "X" hours, whereas now, its almost definite that you will get from The Square to the city centre in 40 minutes, and in reasonable comfort.

Luas is brilliant. But remember. It should be a DART.

DerekP11

dermo88 wrote:

Luas is brilliant. But remember. It should be a DART.

Purely on an infrastructural opinion, without any admiration for the CIE group, that is a great statement.

DerekP11

MiniD wrote:

Articles like the one above really bother me. The red line is running over capicity, to a point where I can no longer use it in the mornings. This morning I was lucky to squeeze on, and only because somebody got off the tram. Other mornings I have to walk to the bus, despite having bought a pre paid Luas ticket.
I was amused last week when RPA decided that making a profit ahead of schedule was somthing positive. Surely, any regulay Luas user was banging their heads agains the windows of the packed tram reading this. The fact that you have reached profits ahead of schedule shows lack of planning and bad management.
The red line service is stretched far beyond the limit it was designed for, and while it may be quicker than the bus at peak hours, outside peak times it is a lot slower. The promised frequency of every 5 minutes is not there at weekends, infact a gap of 15 minutes is not uncommon, and if you decide to wait those 15 minutes, you'll be lucky to squeeze onto a packed tram.
The Luas has been a great success, that can't be denied, but sort out the problems you have first before you extend the line any further.

www.platform11.org/media/press_release.php?year=2004&no=pr_027.html


www.platform11.org/media/press_release.php?year=2004&no=pr_028.html

Read both of the above. It was pointed out before a single passenger was carried on the red Line. The project was inherited by the RPA from CIE. How unfortunate that a spokesperson for the RPA decided to "justify" this situation, when they have now ordered the extensions for trams on the red line. The same person reiterated his position to P11s viewpoint as lately as January this year. Since then we have met the RPA, without this person in attendance. Water has gone under the bridge. P11 were right and personally, I will deal with the RPA, but never have anytime for this particular RPA representative, until I have the opportunity to hear why he was critical of P11 concerns, despite the fact that it was staring him in the face.

Overall the RPA, while far from the perfect article, are at least prepared to engage, when pushed. That will set them apart from IE.

dermo88

1. In defence of the railway companies in Ireland.

Since independence, the three main players in rail transport, Great Northern Railways, Great Southern Railways and finally CIE, have been given limited funding, starved of investment and given a mandate to preside over a "managed decline".

Sometime between 1995 and 1997, that managed decline ended. The Unions forgot their role. They did not have to negotiate generous redundancy deals for their members when a crossing loop was automated, when a DMU made a train guard redundant, or look after the underpaid level crossing keepers.

From a Human Resource Management perspective, the whole environment changed, and I do not believe that either the Unions within CIE, more specifically Iarnrod Eireann, or their Management were equipped to deal with a system that was "going for growth".

The mentality of fear was still there. The fear that the staff would be fired and left with next to nothing. The mentality of distrust on both sides. The mentality of "We pretend to work, you pretend to pay us".

The days of CIE and early Iarnrod Eireann were a time when every penny was scarce, wages were bad, but it was a job for life, when jobs were scarce.

Everytime a transport minister, or a CIE chairman says the words along the lines of "The rail network must pay its way", seven shades of brown matter flow from the Union chiefs in Slipthru, followed by staff on the secondary routes of Iarnrod Eireann, who know that their number is up. Soon.

2. Going for growth - what to do?

CIE and Iarnrod Eireann have done the best they can on little and less. They have presided over some great projects such as DART, Enterprise and Ontrack 2000, all of which have come in on time and within budget. In terms of project implementation and management, they could be much worse. Their performance in this area justifies them being given one area in a new transport structure. The management of Iarnrod.

(a) Iarnrod - Irelands rail infrastructure authority, wholy owned by CIE and the Ministry of transport. Also involved in allocating paths and timetables to railway companies
(b) Traein Eireann - Train Operating Company. Nationalised, may be privatised.
(c) RPA - Rail regulator, allocates contracts to Traein Eirean to operate trains and other railway companies such as Connex.

3. Going for growth means a completely new structure, and a new way of thinking. It means retaining the heavy engineering knowledge in the part of Iarnrod Eireann that performed best, and discarding/dismantling/restructuring and rationalising the areas that failed to be customer focused and performed badly. I refer to the likes of Network Catering, and to areas which were vulnerable to Industrial Action from the likes of the ILDA and recent incidents in Cork. I would like to believe that under Traein Eireann, these can be slowly, and gently eradicated over time with the use of skilled personnel management. A regulator makes sure that Traein Eireann meets performance criteria on all the routes it is contracted to serve.

4. Subsidy.

The subsidy is replaced by a contractual payment. Same thing, different t-shirt.

AYM

DerekP11 wrote:

Read both of the above. It was pointed out before a single passenger was carried on the red Line. The project was inherited by the RPA from CIE.

A very subtle and misleading comment there, designed to reinforce this ridiculous absolutism that RPA=good, CIE=evil.

CIE were directed by Minister O'Rourke to go with the scheme as it currently stands, and RPA when they inherited it were similarly directed.

CIE's then Chairman Brian Joyce warned O'Rourke repeatedly that

A. the costs were woefully under-estimated, and that it could inflate dramatically (correct)

and

B. that with changes in population, economic activity etc, that it would be prudent to reappraise the whole project as it was swallowing the bulk of public transport investment but wasn't going to be able to serve its purpose. (correct)

Joyce paid for his responsible attitude with open warfare from O'Rourke, which ultimately led to his resignation (which O'Rourke famously claimed to have heard about in the bath). CIE paid for it by having Luas taken from them and by the establishment of the RPA (though personally I don't think there was anything wrong with having a separate body - the motivation was malice, but the action was correct).

No doubt it suits the RPA to whisper to those who will repeat it unquestioningly that any problem with Luas is down to CIE, but the facts show that, as it usually is, the fault lies with central government.

dowlingm

http://www.rpa.ie/rpa/about_us/background

On December 28th 2001 RPA was established. RPA subsumed the role of the former CIÉ Light Rail Project Office.

paulm17781

AYM wrote:

A very subtle and misleading comment there, designed to reinforce this ridiculous absolutism that RPA=good, CIE=evil.

In a post about the RPAs short comings.....

AYM

paulm17781 wrote:

In a post about the RPAs short comings.....

Gosh, heaven forbid you should read the post - it's about the facts of CIE's involvement and how the RPA came into being, not a criticism of the RPA at all.

I think I'm very clear on it that the implication in the original post that the RPA inherited flaws that were CIE's fault is wrong. The flaws were from central government instructions, and CIE clearly tried to raise the alarm, but were shot down and shut out. Both CIE and RPA are pretty clear of fault in my view.

aliveandkicking

AYM wrote:

Gosh, heaven forbid you should read the post - it's about the facts of CIE's involvement and how the RPA came into being, not a criticism of the RPA at all.

I think I'm very clear on it that the implication in the original post that the RPA inherited flaws that were CIE's fault is wrong. The flaws were from central government instructions, and CIE clearly tried to raise the alarm, but were shot down and shut out. Both CIE and RPA are pretty clear of fault in my view.

Who designed the red line from Heuston to Abbey Street - the RPA or the CIE Light Rail Project Office?

Transport21 Fan

aliveandkicking wrote:

Who designed the red line from Heuston to Abbey Street - the RPA or the CIE Light Rail Project Office?

CIE Light Railway Office, and it's worth remembering that CIE spent almost 20 years trying to reopen the Harcourt Street line as a guided busway. In many ways it a blessing that it took as long as it did for that line to get reopened as it ended up with a railline and not buses.

Whoever abolished the CIE Light Railway Office deserves a medal based on the fact that CIE unions never had a chance to shut down the Luas. Just think of all the days the Luas worked since it opened while the NBRU were indulging in their strike/stoppage addiction.

The Green Line is superb, I don't think a DART could of really improve on it

The man who said Tallaght should of been a heavy rail hit the nail on the head. But I still think that light rail radiating from polycentric hubs around the city will solve the planning disasters of the past. As long as we get away from An Larism.

The Red line is pretty sweet past Saint James' in terms of being close to a metro. It'll be interesting to see how Metro West works in tandem with Luas when it reaches Tallaght. I think a lot of new dynamics and service options will open up then. The possibilities will be fantastic in terms of what how Metro/Luas can offer besoke and flexible rail services across the city.

paulm17781

AYM wrote:

Gosh, heaven forbid you should read the post

Ssshhhh, keep it in your pants dear.

I read that with Derek saying that the RPA made many mistakes in the past, lately they are better....

MiniD

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Red line is pretty sweet past Saint James' in terms of being close to a metro.

I agree with you 100% there, the service flows perfect between Fatima and Tallaght and just about manages the crowds. It's zones 1 and 2 where the delay and the overcrowding is really bad. There are some really bad spots for delaying trams. The railway bridge at Bus Aras can see trams stopped for 2 minutes, as can the junction at O'Connell Street. The section of track between Jervis and Capel Street is often blocked with cars and it's not unusual to be stuck in traffic there for over 5 minutes. If a tram misses a signal, due to a motorist blocking the track, then it usually has to wait another minute or two for it to change again. In the 15/20 minutes it takes a Red Line tram to travel from Connolly to Heuston, a Green Line tram has travelled to Dundrum.
The newspaper article paints a lovely picture of Harcourt Developments as they build a "school, a park-and-ride facility for the Luas and an all-weather football pitch", but if the residents in those 1,500 new homes cannot fit onto the already overcrowded tram to get home then they will be forced to use the car.

cdebru

Transport21 Fan wrote:

CIE Light Railway Office, and it's worth remembering that CIE spent almost 20 years trying to reopen the Harcourt Street line as a guided busway. In many ways it a blessing that it took as long as it did for that line to get reopened as it ended up with a railline and not buses.

Whoever abolished the CIE Light Railway Office deserves a medal based on the fact that CIE unions never had a chance to shut down the Luas. Just think of all the days the Luas worked since it opened while the NBRU were indulging in their strike/stoppage addiction.

The Green Line is superb, I don't think a DART could of really improve on it

The man who said Tallaght should of been a heavy rail hit the nail on the head. But I still think that light rail radiating from polycentric hubs around the city will solve the planning disasters of the past. As long as we get away from An Larism.

The Red line is pretty sweet past Saint James' in terms of being close to a metro. It'll be interesting to see how Metro West works in tandem with Luas when it reaches Tallaght. I think a lot of new dynamics and service options will open up then. The possibilities will be fantastic in terms of what how Metro/Luas can offer besoke and flexible rail services across the city.

How many days has the Dart or Dublin bus been stopped since the LUAS opened.

The only reason why the LUAS did not stop is because SIPTU has an exclusive deal with Connex or whatever they are calling themselves this week.
To protect that deal SIPTU did not ask its LUAS employees to support their Irish Ferries march although they had no problem asking all their other members and members of unions that are not even in Congress.

I have spoken to many LUAS employees that are very unhappy with SIPTU and the fact that they are tied to that union whether they like it or not. Many of them feel that the union has no interest in representing them and its only interest is in maintaining a deal with Connex and keeping out the ATGWU and NBRU.

Lets see how things progress lets not forget that the NBRU actually can into existence because of a similar deal between SIPTUs predecessor the ITGWU and CIE

spacetweek

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Red line is pretty sweet past Saint James' in terms of being close to a metro. It'll be interesting to see how Metro West works in tandem with Luas when it reaches Tallaght. I think a lot of new dynamics and service options will open up then. The possibilities will be fantastic in terms of what how Metro/Luas can offer besoke and flexible rail services across the city.

Agreed. Having taken the Red Line all the way to Tallaght for the first time only a few weeks ago, I was surprised to find that it was pretty fast once you got through St. James' Hospital, with the notable exception of the Red Cow where it's at-grade (the same nonsense that resulted in at-grade roundabouts for the M50 junctions). I started thinking about a few things.

The upgrade plan for the Green line is to upgrade to metro and bypass the on street section with underground from Charlemont to Stephen's Green. I was thinking that in the distant future you could even upgrade the Red Line to metro by digging a tunnel from about Goldenbridge to Parnell Street via Heuston and passing the line over the Mad Cow on stilts like it should have been in the first place. That would leave only a handful of at grade crossings bar the few at the Square. You would leave the existing on street track from H-Conn. Just a dream but it would be nice.

As for inadequate capacity at the mo from Heuston to O'Connell Street, where are the 40 metre trams and where are the extra dedicated trams that just cover the Heuston-Connelly run. Do they exist? I live in Smithfield and no longer use the Red Line as I cannot physically get onto the trams anymore, even on weekends.

aliveandkicking

spacetweek wrote:

where are the 40 metre trams

The 10 metre sections to lenghten red line trams to 40m are on order from Alstom. They are due to be delivered in early 2007. All existing 30m trams will be lengthened to 40m.

At least another 6 months of overcrowding to put up with I'm afraid

DerekP11

paulm17781 wrote:

Ssshhhh, keep it in your pants dear.

I read that with Derek saying that the RPA made many mistakes in the past, lately they are better....

And simply because they are prepared to engage and listen. Cuurently, IE are not willing to do the same.

DerekP11

AYM wrote:

A very subtle and misleading comment there, designed to reinforce this ridiculous absolutism that RPA=good, CIE=evil.

CIE were directed by Minister O'Rourke to go with the scheme as it currently stands, and RPA when they inherited it were similarly directed.

CIE's then Chairman Brian Joyce warned O'Rourke repeatedly that

A. the costs were woefully under-estimated, and that it could inflate dramatically (correct)

and

B. that with changes in population, economic activity etc, that it would be prudent to reappraise the whole project as it was swallowing the bulk of public transport investment but wasn't going to be able to serve its purpose. (correct)

Joyce paid for his responsible attitude with open warfare from O'Rourke, which ultimately led to his resignation (which O'Rourke famously claimed to have heard about in the bath). CIE paid for it by having Luas taken from them and by the establishment of the RPA (though personally I don't think there was anything wrong with having a separate body - the motivation was malice, but the action was correct).

No doubt it suits the RPA to whisper to those who will repeat it unquestioningly that any problem with Luas is down to CIE, but the facts show that, as it usually is, the fault lies with central government.

Well done, take a star on your copybook for your knowledge of history. But explain to me, how, in my post, I was being subtle and misleading? Furthermore, please verify how I was trying to reinforce the point (your point in fact) that CIE are evil?