UFC 61: Bitter Rivals

maze

Who do you want to win? Im rooting for Tim Sylvia over Andrei Arlovski and Tito Ortiz over Ken Shamrock. Should be a really Good one coz it's a double main event! Here's the rest of the card on July 8th fight:

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=EventDetail.FightCard&eid=195

Dragan

I'm hoping Arlovski gets his belt back...i still see him as being the better figher...that lose was just a hard lesson that he had to take i think. He will either come back so much better, or come back half the man he was.

I will be curious to see his tactic, despite being known as a massive puncher he has never knocked Tim out...the first time he dropped him and grabbed the leg, the second time he knocked him and Tim came right back and dropped him. Should be a good match.

Tito Vs Ken is a minor issue to me, i don't think anyone is really giving Ken much of a shot, except maybe Ken himself. It is hard to put Ken up there as a legitimate challenge to the likes of Tito anymore tbh and i think people are slowly becoming sick of that type of fight.

Vegeta

i hope Tito wins and shuts Ken up for good. I really don't like him.

goo

I'd like to see if Ken was able to improve himself, the last match at least lasted quite a while but he was outclassed in the end. If the way they trained other people on TUF was any indication though, without luck playing a part, Tito will mess up Ken's face again.

Roper

Improve? At his age? Get gone already Ken...

Dragan

Roper wrote:

Improve? At his age? Get gone already Ken...

It not really his age i would look at too much, although at his age his CNS will be starting to slow down a lot.... i mean even Randy found that out.

It's more his mindset....for a guy who was there at the start of MMA he never reall evolved beyond he early years. He was a bit more rounded at the start of the whole thing than a lot of other people were....but he never grew as a fighter than i could see.

Frank Bullitt

id love to see arlovski get his belt back,im not a fan of sylvia at all and i think he got lucky in the last fight,if arlovski has imporved more then the MMA world is in for a big shock because then no one will be able to match him at all and in my opinion arlovski is a better all rounder thatn slyvia.

for tito this is going to be a walk in the park for him,ken really doesnt stand a chance against him,he is still in his prime and ken will really have to pull something amazing out of the bag to even get a shot.

fatal

its gonna be a great show...
i want andre to regain HIS title and I want ken to win but he wont

Dragan

It's actually some of the other fighters than interest me more....Neer and Burkman.....Stevenson and Edwards.

damo

Gintonious wrote:

id love to see arlovski get his belt back,im not a fan of sylvia at all and i think he got lucky in the last fight,if arlovski has imporved more then the MMA world is in for a big shock because then no one will be able to match him at all and in my opinion arlovski is a better all rounder thatn slyvia.

I dunno if Sylvia got lucky, maybe he did to a degree but what he did do is expose Arlovskis one big weakness - his chin.

I dont think arlovski can improve much as a fighter hes already a superbly well rounded fighter, the only thing that stops him being up with the Fedors and Crocops of this world is his weak chin, and no amount of training is gonna cure that unfortunately.

Dragan

damo wrote:

I dunno if Sylvia got lucky, maybe he did to a degree but what he did do is expose Arlovskis one big weakness - his chin.

To be honest, i chuckle a little everytime i read about "Arlovski's weak chin". When your fighting at 240+ pounds then your are throwing bombs, so to expect people to take shots like that and NOT get knocked out or at least stunned is a bit extreme.

These guys throw knockout shots like we breath, it's just what they do. Hell, i currently weight 256 and i have put an overhand right or a good right cross on someones chin then they will go down....doesn't mean they have a weak chin at all, just means that i am a big boy throwing a big shot.

Pretty much anytime Arlovski has been put down it's been by a guy who throws big shots....doesn't mean he has a weak chin, just means he's human.

Musashi

doesn't mean he has a weak chin, just means he's human.

That's the problem right there then!

Fedor and Crocop were sent back from the future to cripple any fighter tough enough to lead the Revolution! :eek: (I'm pretty sure I've seen Red eye shine from them when they knock guys out?)

goo

Dragan wrote:

It's actually some of the other fighters than interest me more....Neer and Burkman.....Stevenson and Edwards.

Dead on, I haven't seen Edwards in ages.
I keep thinking Liddell - Sobral is 61 not 62...
I'd like to see the Monson and Franca fights, might get lucky.

maze

61 looks good because I like Ortiz, and I can't stand Shamrock and I'm looking forward to that one. Arlovski/Sylvia should be a quick fight but exciting one as well, and I'm definately looking forward to Edwards/Stevenson. I'm not much on Mir/Christison, but Neer/Burkman should be good. Plus between the two main events and Mir/Christison, they probably won't go the distance and we'll get to see the prelims as well.

mirwillbeback

Vegeta wrote:

i hope Tito wins and shuts Ken up for good. I really don't like him.

the TUF show has certainly changed peoples views of Ortiz and Shamrock, but you need to remember why the rivalry started. Tito beat Guy Mezger, one of the sports all time nice guys, and slagged him off afterwards with an insulting tshirt. Now win or lose, you should respect your opponent, probably even more so when you win.

I hope Ken kicks Titos ass for that incident alone, though Ken hasnt exactly come across as a decent person on the TV show.

As much as people dont give Ken a chance, Tito has not been impressive in his last 4 - 5 fights and there has to be a doubt that he still as good as he once was.

master_kennette

Dan Christison v. Frank Mir
I hope mir can redeem himself after the last fight he had. i mean i know it was his return fight after his accident but he didnt look good at all. kind of like the return of bj penn.

maze

A lot of people don't know that Shamrock had a torn ACL last fight...I think he'll more determined than ever for this fight and he should be in tip top shape since he hasn't stepped in the Octagon since May of 2005.

TerrorFirmer

Personally I can't wait for Tito and Ken, should be a really entertaining match...

Dragan

maze wrote:

A lot of people don't know that Shamrock had a torn ACL last fight...I think he'll more determined than ever for this fight and he should be in tip top shape since he hasn't stepped in the Octagon since May of 2005.

Actually, i would say that everyone knows that, as it has been said over, and over and over and over and over....you get the point.

And if Tito loses this time it will be because HE had a torn ACL....and that will be said over, and over and over and over.......

dlofnep

Silvia/Arlovski - Arlovski via KO. Stupid rubber matches..

Ortiz/Shamrock - Ortiz via ref stoppage somewhere early in round two.

Dan Christison Vs. Frank Mir - Expect an upset from Christison - Word on the street is that Mir has been kicked from his camp for slacking in training.

Burkman/Neer - This is going to be a close fight - Who knows.. I think Neer might edge it.

Yves Edwards/Stevenson - Yves has this one in the bag. I think his standup is too crisp for Stevenson.

Drew Fickett/Kurt Pellegrino - Flip a coin on this one. Fickett might take it due to experience.

Monson/Anthony Perosh - Monson by submission.

Gilbert Aldana/Cheick Kongo - Aldana is a brawler, but I haven't seen Kongo fight but judging by his record, he's a slugger too. This is not going past the first round.

Hermes Franca/TBA - Whoever they throw at Hermes, Hermes will submit! he's hungry and has wanted back in the UFC for a long time.

PowerHouseDan

Lookin forward to the match Ortiz/Shamrock what channel will be it shown on?

damo

Dragan wrote:

To be honest, i chuckle a little everytime i read about "Arlovski's weak chin". When your fighting at 240+ pounds then your are throwing bombs, so to expect people to take shots like that and NOT get knocked out or at least stunned is a bit extreme.

These guys throw knockout shots like we breath, it's just what they do. Hell, i currently weight 256 and i have put an overhand right or a good right cross on someones chin then they will go down....doesn't mean they have a weak chin at all, just means that i am a big boy throwing a big shot.

Pretty much anytime Arlovski has been put down it's been by a guy who throws big shots....doesn't mean he has a weak chin, just means he's human.

I dunno, not every shot a hw throws has ko power neccessarily. Also some fighters definately are able to absorb harder shots than others, its just the way their jaws and skulls are designed by genetics - nothing they can do about it. Arlovski has been floored by some 'relatively' flimsy looking punches a few times in his career, thats how hes earned that reputation.

master_kennette

I think anyones chin is suspect against Maine-e-acs retard strength coupled with being in the Militich camp. He stays calm and sticks to the game plan.

He does seem to expose his arms for arm bars, like with Mir and Rodriguez, but hopefully he will do the Rico head slam instead of the Mir snap if AA gets him.

My $ is on Sylvia. However AA was humiliated and will come in like hellfire.

Dragan

damo wrote:

Arlovski has been floored by some 'relatively' flimsy looking punches a few times in his career, thats how hes earned that reputation.

Not really, he earned the reputation of having a weak chin because MMA fans in general , particularly those who post on sherdog.com , subfighter.com etc can be very, very fickle.

AA has a glass chin the same way Franklin has a glass chin i.e they don't. Franklin got TKO by Machida and he got rocked by The Crow in round three, so people suspect his chin. Same with Arlovski, he gets dropped by big punchers who throw big punches so he has a suspect chin? Maybe , but not for a human.

I am no avid fan of Arlovski, but i do like to watch him fight. I think he was given to much hype to early, by knocking out a lower level of competition. But i also think the loss to Sylvia will be the making of him.

maze

PowerHouseDan wrote:

Lookin forward to the match Ortiz/Shamrock what channel will be it shown on?

It's a PPV event...but you know what with the two headliners alone the PPV is worth every penny. Can't wait for Saturday's fight.

Dragan

maze wrote:

It's a PPV event...but you know what with the two headliners alone the PPV is worth every penny. Can't wait for Saturday's fight.

Not sure where you live dude but in Ireland we actually get em free on Bravo.

PowerHouseDan

Bravo arent showing it till the 10th at 9pm

Dragan wrote:

Not sure where you live dude but in Ireland we actually get em free on Bravo.

goo

master_kennette wrote:

Dan Christison v. Frank Mir
I hope mir can redeem himself after the last fight he had. i mean i know it was his return fight after his accident but he didnt look good at all. kind of like the return of bj penn.

You can hardly compare the two, if you mean the decision he lost to GSP.

maze wrote:

A lot of people don't know that Shamrock had a torn ACL last fight...I think he'll more determined than ever for this fight and he should be in tip top shape since he hasn't stepped in the Octagon since May of 2005.

Surely there's a point at which it's detrimental to have been away from fighting for so long. I still think Tito will destroy him.

damo

Dragan wrote:

Not really, he earned the reputation of having a weak chin because MMA fans in general , particularly those who post on sherdog.com , subfighter.com etc can be very, very fickle.

AA has a glass chin the same way Franklin has a glass chin i.e they don't. Franklin got TKO by Machida and he got rocked by The Crow in round three, so people suspect his chin. Same with Arlovski, he gets dropped by big punchers who throw big punches so he has a suspect chin? Maybe , but not for a human.

I am no avid fan of Arlovski, but i do like to watch him fight. I think he was given to much hype to early, by knocking out a lower level of competition. But i also think the loss to Sylvia will be the making of him.

Funny you should mention it, because i do think Franklin has a suspect chin too!

Having a 'weak chin' is not just some term thrown around by mma fans, its a medical fact. I just get the feeling with some fighters, mark hunt is a great example, nogueira another, that youd have to hit them with a truck for them to go down (watch crocop v hunt in pride), whereas the likes of franklin and arlovski i just feel that at any time in any fight they can be hit by an average shot and itll be enough to drop them. Its just a weakness like every great fighter has (and franklin and arlovski are great great fighters) - some guys are easily submitted some are easily ko'd, luckily for them their strengths far outweigh their weaknesses.

Dragan

damo wrote:

mark hunt is a great example, nogueira another

Good point, though to be honest i would rather be knocked out...some of the damage Nog has taken in his fights is down right scary!

damo

aye....Hunt too those headkicks he took off Crocop were nasty, hope it doesnt come back to haunt them later in life.

Roper

Um, okay, I just want to say that Franklin is NOT a great, great fighter. He arrives in superb condition and as a result is hard to outlast, but thats it as far as I'm concerned!

I don't know how anyone can expect anything other than a Tito round 1 stoppage. If Shamrock makes it to the 2nd he'll have done very well.

Arlovski vs. Sylvia might be interesting though.

damo

You're right actually, saying Franklin and Arlovski are 'great great fighters' was over the top.

But he sure as hell has alot more going for him than just his cardio, thats a no-brainer!

Dragan

Roper wrote:

Um, okay, I just want to say that Franklin is NOT a great, great fighter. He arrives in superb condition and as a result is hard to outlast, but thats it as far as I'm concerned!

Actually, i used to think this too, but i have been rewatching his old fights, and he is a lot more dangerous than i was actually giving him credit for. A lot of his striking "looks" sloppy, but man is it ever clever.

maze

My picks this saturday's ppv:

Arlovski
Ortiz
Mir
Neer
Edwards
Fickett
Snowman
Hermes Franca

Roper

Dragan wrote:

Actually, i used to think this too, but i have been rewatching his old fights, and he is a lot more dangerous than i was actually giving him credit for. A lot of his striking "looks" sloppy, but man is it ever clever.

He cuts well with those sloppy, looping punches. Remember the Tanner fight? I give the guy credit, he's obviously a "cerebral" type of fighter. He makes great use of what he has but I think he's very, very limited.

Dragan

Roper wrote:

He cuts well with those sloppy, looping punches. Remember the Tanner fight? I give the guy credit, he's obviously a "cerebral" type of fighter. He makes great use of what he has but I think he's very, very limited.

So do you reckon that Anderson will drop him? I think it's great the UFC finally brought him he....he has deserved to be in the bigger leagues for a long time now. imo.

Roper

Dragan wrote:

So do you reckon that Anderson will drop him? I think it's great the UFC finally brought him he....he has deserved to be in the bigger leagues for a long time now. imo.

When's that happening?

Anyway, I wouldn't bet against Franklin in most fights. Like I say he comes better prepared than most and is effective within his limits, which I admire. "Talent without hard work is useless, thank God"- Mark Twain!
My dispute was with the "great" tag, which Damo has since retracted!:D

As for Arlovski, he operates in a very weak Heavyweight Division, but I like him. Sylvia is the only obvious rival in the whole UFC division. You can't count Mir after his comeback and while I have great respect for Monson and Pe de Pano as fighters, I don't think they're genuine contenders. In fact I think Monson said as much himself. The rest are fillers IMO.

Nice to see Franca on the card on another note.

Dragan

Roper wrote:

When's that happening?

Sorry about that, was just hypothesising.... rumour mill on MMAweekly has Terrel vs Anderson or Nathan M for UFC 62! Hope that works out!

Your spot on about the Heavyweights....but i think everyone is agreed on that point!!!

Franca i can't wait to see....shame i most likely won't get to!

Ph3n0m

Andrei arlovski vs Tim Sylvia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEUYiZUsXOU&search=Sylvia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfnz6aoASME&search=arlovski

PowerHouseDan

Anyone see these fights just saw them there some great fights

Nephew

yeah, it was pretty good.

i laughed when

the commentator said during the stevenson vs edwards fight when edwards was covered in blood 'that also makes your opponent extremely slippery'

why do ortiz and shamrock hate each so much?

skorn

Nephew wrote:

why do ortiz and shamrock hate each so much?

Cos its good for promoting the UFC and ratings

skorn

In case anyone is interested.
Here are the fights that aired on the US PPV (doesnt necessary mean Bravo will not show some of the others).

Aired
Tim Sylvia vs Andrei Arlovski
Tito Ortiz vs Ken Shamrock
Joe Stevenson vs Yves Edwards
Frank Mir vs Dan Christison
Josh Neer vs Josh Burkman
Jeff Monson vs Anthony Perosh (only very short highlight)
Not Aired
Drew Fickett vs Kurt Pellegrino
Gilbert Aldana vs Cheick Kongo
Hermes Franca vs Joe Jordan

Ph3n0m

Videos of certain matches are already on yourtube.com

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=ufc+61&search_type=search_videos&search=Search

PowerHouseDan

I think the Ref called it right to be honest....

goo

skorn wrote:

Not Aired
Hermes Franca vs Joe Jordan

Nooo
It must've been long.

Vegeta

PowerHouseDan wrote:

I think the Ref called it right to be honest....

if you're talking about ortiz and shamrock i have to agree.

Shamrock came out strong and i thought it was going to be brutal.

He took an elbow on the ground and it dazed him and then didn't defend himself while ortiz hit him with about 4 to 5 more elbows.

If the ref let it go and shamrock got seriously hurt then people would be saying the ref should have stepped in. He hesitated for a second to see if shamrock was truly dazed but went in at just the right time if you ask me

PowerHouseDan

Exactly

Vegeta wrote:

if you're talking about ortiz and shamrock i have to agree.

Shamrock came out strong and i thought it was going to be brutal.

He took an elbow on the ground and it dazed him and then didn't defend himself while ortiz hit him with about 4 to 5 more elbows.

If the ref let it go and shamrock got seriously hurt then people would be saying the ref should have stepped in. He hesitated for a second to see if shamrock was truly dazed but went in at just the right time if you ask me

damo

I agree it was a good stoppage...i just wish the ref had let tito drop 2 or 3 more elbows so there would be absolutely no doubt whatsoever in anyones mind. Now please god let that be the last we see of Ken.

PowerHouseDan

It wont be the last i reckon Shamrock will try and fight Tito again why i dont no, I wish the ref let it go on for a small bit a make sh&t of shamrock even more.

damo wrote:

I agree it was a good stoppage...i just wish the ref had let tito drop 2 or 3 more elbows so there would be absolutely no doubt whatsoever in anyones mind. Now please god let that be the last we see of Ken.