How much to charge

Tom Dunne

A small business has asked me to put in a quote for a custom application they want written. Current version is in MS Access, they want something more robust and greatly imrpoved functionality.

From what I have seen, it looks like a VB front-end to a SQL server database will do the trick, with 5-6 users max, so nothing too heavy. It's a small business in a service industry.


Any ballpark figures what a reasonable quote for something like this would be?

Winelover

Think of a professional fee per hour. Work out approx how many hours it will take. Then Multiply --there is a ballpark qoute!

Trampas

I couldn't say it better myself.

Remember you will have to stick by your price.

Hobbes

corintian (I think) had a good post on it in the forum, although it doesn't give you a price, gives a breakdown of what you should be thinking about when doing a quote.

Tom Dunne

Yikes.

I'm coming up with figures in the region of 8,000 - 10,000 Euro.

Does this sound reasonable?

Evil Phil

You should also consider a support fee, as no doubt you'll have to provide some further down the line.

JuncoPartner

Are you developing it yourself?
Are you VAT registered and all that or is it a cash in hand job?
Are you gonna work at it full time or in your spare time.

I wouldnt touch it for less than 5g from what you've said. And thats the very very least you should look at doing it for. And thats on top of expenses, make sure you account for the DB and all that seperate.

That sort of application should really be going for about 10. But if you're posting on here looking for advice on a price then you're not in a position to be charging full whack.

However another problem you'll find is that a lot of companies just dont understand how much software costs. If they have a problem with your price tell them to go ask a professional company and see how they like the figure that they get there. If you are VAT registered and doing it legit then they can write off a fair amount of it on taxes too.

As for the application itself are you developing it yourself? When you say 5-6 users are they on seperate terminals or just one machine at seperate times? If its seperate terminals and you are building it alone you should really consider building it as a web app, if you have any skills in that area. You'll find deployment and maintenance a hell of a lot easier than if you deploy a vb app.

Tom Dunne

JuncoPartner wrote:

Are you developing it yourself?

Yes.

JuncoPartner wrote:

Are you VAT registered and all that or is it a cash in hand job?

Not VAT registered, but sole trader, so everything will be properly invoiced.

JuncoPartner wrote:

Are you gonna work at it full time or in your spare time.

Full time.

JuncoPartner wrote:

But if you're posting on here looking for advice on a price then you're not in a position to be charging full whack.

This is a very pertinent point - I have done some development work before, along with a fair whack of database support, but all within the confines of a corporate environment. I see this as a great opportunity to get myself started in this line of business. I know I can't charge top dollar for this, I am looking at the bigger picture and future opportunities (there is talk of hooking this app up to the web in the future).

JuncoPartner wrote:

As for the application itself are you developing it yourself?

Yes.

JuncoPartner wrote:

When you say 5-6 users are they on seperate terminals or just one machine at seperate times? If its seperate terminals and you are building it alone you should really consider building it as a web app, if you have any skills in that area. You'll find deployment and maintenance a hell of a lot easier than if you deploy a vb app.

5-6 users, all on seperate machines. I haven't ruled out a web app yet, I have to talk to them properly next week and get an idea what hardware they already have.

I really appreciate this information, it is certainly helping and getting me thinking.

masterK

It might also be worth considering using PostgreSQL instead of SQL Server, will cut down on the licencing costs and the associated hassle.

JuncoPartner

Excellent. Yeah as you say this would be the perfect sort of project to get you going on your own.
There is a serious amount of companies out there especially in the likes of the service industry who work from paper and spreadsheets. If you get one under your belt its a lot easier to get more. It can be an idea to take a hit on the first few to build up your client base. But dont sell yourself short either, we all have to eat. You could look at dropping the intial dev price but insisting on a higher maintenance price etc. Or another nice way to make money is if they use it for bookings or anything like that try grab a percentage, even a small one, itll add up and provide u a constant income.
Id really seriously consider a web app for it, and as you say there is talk of hooking it up to the web later aswell.
Although it might not be the way for this depending on wat the app will do.
I do both myself but appreciate that a lot of the time web just isnt feasible.

Tom Dunne

masterK wrote:

It might also be worth considering using PostgreSQL instead of SQL Server, will cut down on the licencing costs and the associated hassle.

They already have SQL server installed (for what, I don't really know), hence why my first thought was slap a VB front-end on it.

elivsvonchiaing

tom dunne wrote:

They already have SQL server installed (for what, I don't really know), hence why my first thought was slap a VB front-end on it.

You said 5-6 users. That is really at the sweet-spot of where you need to decide .exe or .ocx etc.

New version on 2-3 machines with .exe is not a problem - how many machines in the future is where you should be thinking...

stevenmu

tom dunne wrote:

They already have SQL server installed (for what, I don't really know)

A lot of companies that size would have bought Small Business Server which it comes bundled with. You should check how many users it's licensed for, I think by default it's only 5 (and certainly wouldn't be licensed for internet use down the road if it comes to that).

JuncoPartner

stevenmu wrote:

A lot of companies that size would have bought Small Business Server which it comes bundled with. You should check how many users it's licensed for, I think by default it's only 5 (and certainly wouldn't be licensed for internet use down the road if it comes to that).

Here's a question actually, Im not that well up on licencing, which Im kinda glad about tbh!
But when they say users do they mean distinct users or distinct logins. If it is distinct logins then you have no problem unless you want to strongly tie DB users to app users, which is something I rarely do in SQL server but do a lot in Oracle.
And does the licencing apply to the use of the DB or the use of DB tools? Like you have 5 licences to use Enterprise Manager or Query Analyser or whatever, but you can actually access the DB using your own app anyway? Again Im not too up on the licencing of sql server, just curios as to the actual fineprints!

stevenmu

As I understand it licensing is per connection, so in short you could have 100s of users setup on the system but only 5 can login at any one particular time. The microsoft sql product pages actually explain it fairly well, http://www.microsoft.com/sql/howtobuy/default.mspx#EXF , I think 2005 licensing is pretty much the same as previous versions.

Evil Phil

JuncoPartner wrote:

But dont sell yourself short either, we all have to eat.

To use the condom analogy:

Brand A costs €0.25 per condom.
Brand B costs €2.50 per condom.

Mose 'users' will trust Brand B off the cuff sooner than they'll trust Brand A. As they're paying more for it if must be of better quality.

Lucifer 2

Check out SQL 2005 Express.
It's free and its's great.

liamo

There's some good advice in the previous posts. I've got a few more bits of wisdom to add.

As JuncoPartner said, a lot of small companies don't understand the price of custom software. Not only that, they often don't understand what it is they want. It's your job to help them reach the point where they understand what they're being quoted for. You MUST get this down on paper or else they will keep coming up with things that they forgot to include on the original spec. This is called Scope Creep and there's nothing wrong with it if you can go back to them and say "Sure, no problem. That'll take me three days to code up. That'll cost an addition xxxx Euro". The important thing is make sure that both parties understand what is expected to be delivered.

As for pricing, reach your best estimate in hours and then add 50%. Over the years, I've found that the second figure turns out to be far more accurate. Divide by 8 and multiply by your daily rate. If it's a huge figure, whatever you do, don't lower your daily rate. This de-values your work. You can, however, offer a discount of a fixed amount or a percentage off the bottom line. This way, the customer feels loved and also understands the true value of your work.

Do agree acceptance tests and sign-off points. At each point you should expect to receive an agreed payment. Additionally, this way the customer can't blackmail you into loads more work at the end of the job by witholding payment. Yes - been there more than once. Also, it's not much fun coding for 3 months without getting paid!

I don't agree with choosing a Web App unless the customer specifically asks for it. Often, users don't find the experience as satisfying as using a rich client such as a VB or C# desktop app. If you need to bolt on a web front-end later, well there's another paid job!

Best of luck with it.

Regards,

Liam