PD senator says Metro, Dart must be linked

Navan Junction

ireland.com, 20.06.2006

The new metro rail line to Dublin airport and Swords must be linked to the Dart line, the Progressive Democrats said today.

The party's transport spokesman, Senator Tom Morrissey, said it would be "crazy" to end the metro line in "mid-air" at Lissenhall, north of Swords, Co Dublin.

The line is currently in public consultation phase and will not come into service until 2012. There are four route options; the fourth option, which would incorporate the areas of Croke Park and DCU, was recently revealed by the Railway Procurement Agency.

A central route would operate via Glasnevin and Botanic Road and service DCU, an east route would go through Drumcondra and Santry, while the west route option would take in Cabra and Finglas. Members of the public have until June 30th to give their opinions.

But Mr Morrissey said today that whichever route is chosen must link up with the Dart line at Donabate, when the northern commuter rail line is upgraded to accommodate the electric trains as far as Balbriggan, Co Dublin. This is planned under the Government's Transport 21 strategy.

"It would be crazy not to effectively link the Metro and Dart with a spur between Lissenhall and Donabate. We must learn from past mistakes; for example, the failure to link the two Luas lines," he said.

"The over-riding principle must be integration, as this offers flexibility to the commuter and increased passenger numbers to the provider."

© The Irish Times/ireland.com

dowlingm

I'm a big fan of that idea - I was an even bigger fan when Metro could have been DART and thus Drogheda-Dublin Airport-Stephen's Green could have been possible. Oh well!

Slice

I don't understand why the PDs are calling for intergration of Dart and Metro on the outskirts of the city when intergration in the city centre hasn't even been fully addressed yet, also why are they making such calls when they are actually in Goverment and so in a position to do something about it.

Even though it wouldn't be a bad thing to intergrate Dart and Metro on the Metro's northern terminus it's wouldn't exactly be a missed oppotunity if they didn't connect. The likelihood of people using Lissenhall as an interchange station may not justify the extension, especially when it might be just as effective to have orbital bus services crossing the north city.

For example just count how many of London's Underground lines intergrate on the outskirts of that city and you'll see it's actually very few. I suspect this has more to do with politics and winning seats than it does with public transport planning.

popebenny16

Where's me crayola gone......

I like this.....

The party's transport spokesman, Senator Tom Morrissey, said it would be "crazy" to end the metro line in "mid-air" at Lissenhall, north of Swords, Co Dublin.

You couldnt make this up, honestly.

And you know what, after reading this, I almost forget that the PD's are in Government!!! and have been for almost 10 years!!! Hey, Tom, why dont you telephone your ministerial mates there, instead of this sort of thing in the papers.

What does Donabate and Portrane need? A housing CAP, not more encouragment to build more bloody houses beside my chalet.

Navan Junction

Write a letter. No point only posting about it here.

lettersed@irish-times.ie

Diaspora

popebenny16 wrote:

Where's me crayola gone......

IAnd you know what, after reading this, I almost forget that the PD's are in Government!!! and have been for almost 10 years!!! Hey, Tom, why dont you telephone your ministerial mates there, instead of this sort of thing in the papers.

As always plenty of clarity at the 74 mile point

Could I add why he doesn't get his colleagues to sort out the other proposal for Dublin Port while he is at it.

It wouldn't be so ridiculous except that he was only appointed as Taioseachs nominee and wasn't elected

dowlingm

Slice - I suspect the Balbriggan Port proposal has everything to do with this press release.

http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/press_room/1616/

Transport21 Fan

Fair play Tom Morrisson this is a super idea (which was sort of on the table) and which needs to be highlighted more. His hyperbole apart, this would reduce capacity on the Northern Line (south of Donebate) and provide a super link to the airport from Drogheda and Dundalk.

Northbound DARTs in the morning would get a lot more passengers who would be going to the Airport/Swords from the city as well. Would remove the "one way" aspect of the Northern Line at peak times.

Top man Tommo.

popebenny16

Fair play Tom Morrisson this is a super idea (which was sort of on the table) and which needs to be highlighted more. His hyperbole apart, this would reduce capacity on the Northern Line (south of Donebate) and provide a super link to the airport from Drogheda and Dundalk.

Northbound DARTs in the morning would get a lot more passengers who would be going to the Airport/Swords from the city as well. Would remove the "one way" aspect of the Northern Line at peak times.

Top man Tommo.

Now look here, I just spent some considerable time trying to work out if thats satire, sarcasam or actual praise, this board has got sooooooooooooo good!!

Diaspora

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Fair play Tom Morrisson this is a super idea

Hammer Nail Head

Great idea the speciality of this govenment

delivery capacity record of his ideas 0%

End result more gridlock for the constituents of our Taoiseachs Nominee

Less media action required

More actual delivery required

popebenny16

NJ, e-mail sent. Ho ho ho!!!

MarkoP11

Tom should know better there already exists funding for a study to link Howth Junc to Metro North/West under T21 that might possibly hit the north fringe where serious density housing is going in (read ideal for public transport)

The big concern is the city centre area which is expensive and hard to sort out, sticking a line across green fields is trivial (note GREEN FIELDS). The case for a line starts at county council level its all about planning and development

Nothing in the Metro plans prevents this, it hasn't been funded to even a study stage since there are far more pressing problems elsewhere, city centre integration is way more important at this stage

Navan Junction

popebenny16 wrote:

NJ, e-mail sent. Ho ho ho!!!

That's more like it.

Transport21 Fan

Diaspora wrote:

Hammer Nail Head

Great idea the speciality of this govenment

delivery capacity record of his ideas 0%

End result more gridlock for the constituents of our Taoiseachs Nominee

Less media action required

More actual delivery required

If that was a Labour press release by Michael D. Higgins he would be quoting Honduran socialist lesbian poety in Irish.

Give Tommo a break, unlike the Labour Party, he and his party actually understand that protecting CIE union jobs is not the sole reason for public transport investment.

popebenny16

If it was a Labour press release by anyone else in Labour it would be much the same, t21f.

Election's in May, 10 months and counting..............

Diaspora

But it isn't Michael D Higgins it is the Taoiseachs nominee who seems to feel it is more productive to go to the press than his own geovernment colleagues; the same government colleagues that are led by a declared 'socialist' who refused to address either new terminal facilities at Dublin or a re-fi of Aer Lingus

Hondurus dream on T21 you have a 20 minute walk through portacabins to get on a flight to London to visit a lesbian wedding in London.

Investment hahahahaha

the_syco

It wouldn't be a bad idea. Pity the Luas wasn't somehow linked up to the Dart, cos then the Luas could have been usefull, and gone to more places.

Red Alert

Then the irish rail gauge vs standard gauge issue comes into play.

I think the metro should essentially be the DART, or even a DMU operated rail line to begin with.

GerardKeating

dowlingm wrote:

Metro could have been DART and thus Drogheda-Dublin Airport-Stephen's Green could have been possible. Oh well!

This would have made a lot more sense and if it was 4-tracked from the city to a link with the Nothern Line and divert the Intercity service via this route.

This would greatly expand the capacity of the Malihide/Howth - City Corridor and be a lot less pain full.

It would be a lot easier/cheaper to 4-track an un-built line, than to retro-fit 4 tracks on the Connolly-Malihide line.

Diaspora

Wouldn't work

our great socialist wouldn't have a metro line running through the heart of his constituency

Victor

Once upon a time, circa 2003, Fine Gael (I'm not a member) set up a residents "meet the RPA" meeting in Ranelagh, the first real (OK, overstatement) involvement I had with the RPA. I don't recollect who represented the RPA, but he seemed to be fairly senior.

The point was made about gauge (and bedroom curtains!). I asked some rather pertinent questions like:

* Is this line dual gauge? no?
* Will a DART be able to run on the tracks? No.
* Is there provision so that in the future it could easily be changed over to a DART service? No. everything including bridges would need to be rebuilt.

This line of questioning continued with me becoming more and more incredulous and him becoming more and more embarrassed. By the end of it he looked rather sick.

Now I realise there are good reasons to keep trams and trains separate, as has been long discussed, but Belfast-Swords-Airport-Dublin could have made a whole lot of sense.

DerekP11

In all fairness, Tom Morrissey was also the member of the Oireachtas Transport Committee that told P11, their Phoenix Park Tunnel idea was "the most sensible idea ever spoken in this house". Hmmmm.....

No where did that go........?

More showmanship from a politician. The fact that he's a member of a Government party makes it all the more alarming. He must think we're all idiots.

The idea isn't that bad though. However he hasn't done his homework on RPA plans that have been funded under T21 to examine more direct integration. If we know this, then surely Tom should.

Navan Junction

Go to his website.

He has loads of press releases that could pass as those of the opposition.

His role is to put the message out "We have no control over things that go wrong, but we are battling the public's corner." He's like a sweeper.

Diaspora

Sweeper now thats an expression I haven't heard for a while brings back memories of distant Italian teams not afraid to rugby tackle an opponent when in the last man back position.

I wonder is Tom in a similar position and getting confused as to which code he is playing?

Iób

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Fair play Tom Morrisson this is a super idea (which was sort of on the table) and which needs to be highlighted more. His hyperbole apart, this would reduce capacity on the Northern Line (south of Donebate) and provide a super link to the airport from Drogheda and Dundalk.

Northbound DARTs in the morning would get a lot more passengers who would be going to the Airport/Swords from the city as well. Would remove the "one way" aspect of the Northern Line at peak times.

Top man Tommo.

Ahem

2 November 2005
To ask the Minister for Transport his views on the call from the communities of Donabate and Portrane for the proposed metro via Dublin Airport and Swords to be extended to Donabate in order to allow connections with the Dublin/Belfast rail service (details supplied).

- Trevor Sargent.
For WRITTEN answer on Wednesday, 2nd November, 2005.
on the basis that CIE had stated that the extension of the proposed metro from Donabate to Swords is a matter primarily for the Department of Transport and the Rail Procurement Agency
Ref No: 31735/05

Answer by the Minister for Transport
(Martin Cullen)

The Transport Investment Framework announced yesterday, includes a provision for a Metro line from the City Centre to Swords via Dublin Airport. This does not include an extension to Donabate, nor was such a link envisaged in the Dublin Transportation Office's strategy "A Platform for Change".

It is intended that the Metro line will terminate north of Swords at Lissenhall. However, there is a major park and ride site planned at the terminus, which will benefit people from Donabate, Portrane and other areas of North Dublin, Meath and Louth travelling to the airport or onwards to the City Centre it will be possible to park at the terminus and take the Metro line to the airport or onwards to the City Centre. The Metro journey time from the terminus to the airport will be under 10 minutes. The journey time from the airport to the City Centre will be under 20 minutes.

MarkoP11

I fail to see why parliamentary time is wasted on such stupid questions, a simple call to the RPA would reveal the answer in a lot more detail

Politicans seem to wast endless hours of Dail time with questions of which the answers could be obtained directly from the organistations invloved or are infact public knowledge

Iób

MarkoP11 wrote:

I fail to see why parliamentary time is wasted on such stupid questions, a simple call to the RPA would reveal the answer in a lot more detail

Politicans seem to wast endless hours of Dail time with questions of which the answers could be obtained directly from the organistations invloved or are infact public knowledge

The question was "To ask the Minister for Transport his views..." It's part of a process of accountable government and political debate.
The fact that the Minister failed to give his views or indeed any view on the actual question speaks for itself.

The question was also a written question which therefore doesn't take any Dáil time.

Iób

Do Platform11 not get questions asked in the Dáil?

You should.

MarkoP11

We try but not all questions get asked there is a lottery and it takes time, also as a non politcal orgainisation to side with one party is not productive. No point asking a question when the answer is already known.

RPA and IE make the decisions the minister rubberstamps them, the minister has little power to tell them what to do and thats a frequent excuse in answers. Fact is most of the information is public knowledge anyway

Navan Junction

In fairness, some really interesting stuff comes back from Dáil questions. Only some questions are actually oral, most end up as written questions.

Great thing about Dáil questions is that they come straight from the Minister's department in the Minister's name, rather than from a PR machine in CIÉ or whatever agency might be responsible..

Diaspora

MarkoP11 wrote:

RPA and IE make the decisions the minister rubberstamps them, the minister has little power to tell them what to do and thats a frequent excuse in answers.

That is quite a simplistic view; I would describe transport policy in Ireland top down vs bottom up. Both agencies are basically told what they are going to do; if it were a case of a mere stamp being required what happened to the Dublin Rail Plan?

murphaph

Running the metro north east from Lissenhall to Donabate DART makes eminent sense. You don't need the line to be surrounded by housing to warrant it in this case because you are just adding interchange rather than building a line to nowhere. Drogheda (quite likely DART in future) and Balbriggan (one of the three designated growth 'towns' in Fingal) will lie north of Donabate and the ability for these people to change to metro and reach whole swathes of north and city centre Dublin with one change at Donabate. Enterprise services could also stop at Donabate and allow Belfast travellers one change to the airport. At a bare minimum a reservation from Lissenhall must be maintained.

MarkoP11

Thats the point exactly, its the local councils problem to make provision stick in the plan for these growing towns, its not the DoT, DTO or RPA's problem, the minister will quickly tell you its a problem for the local council

The only reason metro is going to Swords is because Fingal CC implemented an aggressive section 49 style leve on development to fund the extension, thats how these things get done

Fact is T21 already funds the study for Howth Junc to Metro North/West which provides the link

davidhealy

Marko,

Do you have any more information on the funding/study? I have looked on the Department of Transport’s website and can’t find anything.

The reason this is of interest is because at a Fingal County Council meeting yesterday I proposed that a multimodal transportation study be carried out in response to a proposal from the council officials to include a Baldoyle to Blanchardstown Road in an Airport Local Area Plan. (effectively a motorway relief road; my proposal was defeated.)

However, the road would require a variation of the Development Plan and there is a non-statutory public consultation on the Malahide Road to Clonshaugh section (through new residential and industrial areas complete with 2 flyover junctions in new residential areas) over the next few weeks in the Hilton on Malahide Rd., so it is not finally decided. I would like to get more info for the future discussions.

I would note that the obvious route would probably be from the new Stapolin station rather than Howth Junction. If there is to be a rail link it would need to be decided soon as the rest of the plans in the area are all going ahead at speed and will block the options.

By the way a motion from Joe Corr in relation to including a rail reservation to Donabate in the County Development Plan was on yesterday's agenda but wasn't reached; it will be discussed in July.

David
(Cllr. David Healy, Green, Howth/Dublin North East)

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

Politicans seem to wast endless hours of Dail time with questions of which the answers could be obtained directly from the organistations invloved or are infact public knowledge

Most questions are written and are responded to by aides. Few enough get a hearing.

It is useful for getting things on the record though.

MarkoP11 wrote:

We try but not all questions get asked there is a lottery and it takes time, also as a non politcal orgainisation to side with one party is not productive. No point asking a question when the answer is already known.

Then send them to everyone (including the minister). Thats what many do. You will note that when a question is raised, perhaps 2-3 identical questions will be asked in hte same week.

RPA and IE make the decisions the minister rubberstamps them

Civil/public servants draw up policies, ministers rubber stamp them. However this is large irrelevant as it is the politicians that decide what policies get funded.

davidhealy

MarkoP11 wrote:

Fact is T21 already funds the study for Howth Junc to Metro North/West which provides the link

Does anyone have any info on this funding/study? I can find nothing on Dept of Transport website.

MarkoP11

davidhealy wrote:

Does anyone have any info on this funding/study? I can find nothing on Dept of Transport website.

Don't waste your time on the DoT site you would be hard pushed to find anything on T21

Funds to exist to carry out a number of studies
Liffey Junction Finglas
St Stephens Green Tallaght via Harolds Cross (Orbital Metro)
Howth Junc to Metro North/West

Funds study a link Metro North/West to the DART line in the vicinity of Howth Junc/Killbarrack exist in T21, remember platform for change had a luas doing something similar.

Its outstandingly vague I'm sorry but thats all we have it appears to be policy not to inform the public, we only complain when its not delivered...... The point of the study is to figure it all out

davidhealy

Thanks

Bluetonic

.

Metro not on track for Donabate stop
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By Eimear Cotter

A GREEN Party proposal to reject the Draft Donabate Area Action Plan and for Fingal council to look at extending Metro North to Donabate has been defeated by councillors, who are now debating the finer points of the scheme.

The draft Donabate LAP proposes development of 5,000 units on 356 acres in the townlands of Turvey, Rahillion, Corballis and Ballymastone, in Donabate, to be rolled out over a 13 year period.

The controversial LAP went out on public display recently and a total of 516 submissions were made - councillors are now looking at amendments and making improvements to the scheme.

‘It’s clear the council has made a number of very welcome changes to the original plan,’ said Cllr Clare Daly (SP). ‘I’d like to see this amended plan run as a new LAP and for it to go back out on public display.’

However, County Manager, John Tierney said the plan is before councillors and they can only do one of three things. ‘Councillors can either accept, reject or amend the plan, that’s all,’ he said.

Cllr Joe Corr (GP) called for the LAP to be rejected and for transport, education, and environmental studies to be completed.

An initial motion proposed for a study to be done on bringing Metro North to Donabate, but this was later amended and all mention of the light rail system was removed. However, this didn’t stop councillors from speaking about Metro.

‘The bottom line with the Metro, the reality of bringing the Metro to Donabate means that every square inch of land from Lissenhall to Donabate village would end up being zoned for residential use and that’s the last thing that people want,’ said Cllr Michael Kennedy (FF).

‘An upgrade of the DART to Donabate is needed before development begins.’

But Cllr Daly said there’s no mention of Metro in the motion.

‘Zoning is a decision for councillors, the Metro is irrelevant to that. The community has given a clear mandate to reject the LAP as it stands, though that’s not to say work hasn’t been done,’ said Cllr Daly.

The original motion calling for the Metro to Donabate was ridiculed when it was presented to the community, claimed Cllr Gerry McGuire (Lab).

‘It was pointed out that it would involve the elimination of the green space between Swords and Donabate,’ he said, ‘And studies don’t have to be done to tell us that we need schools in Donabate. We don’t need a study to tell us that.’

Admitting the rail service to Donabate is ‘truly abysmal’, Director of Planning Services, David O’Connor said the Government’s Transport 21 programme proposes extending the DART north to Balbriggan and Skerries by 2015. ‘As part of Transport 21, the Government will be pushing ahead with improvements to the rail line to Donabate. The council is hoping this will be done on an incremental basis rather than as one enormous piece of work,’ he said.

Cllr Corr’s motion to reject the plan was defeated by a margin of six in favour and 14 against. Discussion on the draft LAP continued last night (Tuesday 20th June 2006).

Bluetonic

And here's the other side of it..... oh it would make you laugh!

Local chamber make call to extend the metro line to Balbriggan
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By Hubert Murphy

THE Balbriggan Chamber of Commerce has made a submission asking that the proposed new metro for Fingal be extended to the town.

‘The availability of a high speed link between the Airport and the City is something that has been an issue for the business community in particular for a long time. However it is in looking at the extension of the Metro to Swords that the planners should be bold and consider extending it to Balbriggan and more particularly the Bremore Port when that development goes ahead,’ states chamber transport spokesperson Robert Cashell.

‘By extending it Northwards the Metro could act as an alternative to the Commuter Rail line along the coast which is presently as good as at capacity. The Parisian model of mixing the Metro with the suburban RER could be considered,’ he adds.

The chamber believes that, in conjunction with Fingal Council, a view could be taken on how a route could be extended to cover areas of potential future population growth that are not presently covered by a regular public service – eg Ballyboughal.

‘Such a line could terminate on the western side of Balbriggan, servicing that side of the town where there is significant development and also be close enough for the Naul, Balscadden and Stamullen. Alternatively it could link in with the commuter line at the Bremore Port, in addition to moving workers to the port it could also cater for passenger traffic and act a changing point for commuters on the mainline and also a link with Belfast to the airport.’

Although the DART has been earmaked to extend to Balbriggan, Mr Cashell feels it is not the answer to the commuter woes of the future.

‘Much has been made of extending the DART to Balbriggan, but is the DART the panacea for all the travellers woes? The key issue with the rail line is capacity and not the DART. What commuters want are seats and are not worried as to whether it is a DART or a diesel rail car. The fact is that DART coaches have less sitting room that the older Diesel carriages. As long as the DART starts in Balbriggan passengers should benefit on the Dublin leg of their commute but if electrification extends to Drogheda more people may end up standing.

‘As long as there is a need for people to commute to Dublin to work the DART alone will not be the solution. A serious look at the Metro may be what is required and in the longer run creating more jobs in Balbriggan so people can walk to work would be the ultimate solution.

While Balbriggan Chamber supports everything that is done for the commuter they feel that there is need for much more radical thinking to give a long term solution to the problem.’

markf909

Wow standing on a commuter train. Imagine that happening in other developed countries :rolleyes:

dowlingm

bilevel trains would solve that problem but IE don't want to know... ho hum.