No direct link between 9/11 + OBL?

Hobbes

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm

tbh I take whats written there with a pinch of salt. However they are correct. The most wanted poster for OBL makes absolutly no reference to 9/11 at all.

Could of sworn it did before.

Wibbs

I've seen something along these lines mentioned before and the whole connection between the two seems a bit tenuous to say the least, never mind the wanted poster. Remember the "authentic" video that was "captured" in Afghanistan(lucky that, those lads should buy a lotto ticket)? A video that was more faked than Pammy Andersons decollatage purporting to show Osama and his minions gloating over 911 sealed the deal for me. It appeared that certain elements in the free world were trying that bit too hard. Not much mention of it since for such a smoking gun. Things that make you go Hmmmmm, indeed.

Hobbes

I see that international papers are starting to pick up the story. If its true it would be a huge blow to the Afganistan campaign. Also begs the question what evidence do they have.

lostexpectation

hmm im sure this point was already discovered yrs ago, before this guy happened to ring the FBI, which is where words link linked and inspired come into it... If the CIRA DOG forbid blew something up tmw it would be al qaeda linked...

silverharp

whatever happened to those "passports" they found at the site belonging to the terrorists, did they ever retract that one

Zombrex

Unfortunately it seems that the American and British public need a single "bad guy" to focus there attention on. It used to be Communists (as if all communist countries exchanged plans to take over the west), now it is this international network of terrorists called Al Queda.

They need to know that there is an enemy that they can actually fight against. Believing that everything is Al Queda makes it seem like they have a chance against modern terrorism because there is a group to direct attention towards.

The reality that there a dozens of independent terrorist movements, each with individual independent cells, opperating out there, acting on their own planning and inititive is too scary an idea.

Which is why you get the terrorist campaigns in Iraq linked to Al Queda, even though Bin Laden is supposed to strongly disapprove of Muslims fighting other Muslims, or even the ridiculous idea that Al Queda was linked to Sadam (when in reality they hated each other).

lostexpectation

Don't Mention The Saudis

xha1r

In my opinion Wicknight, you are absolutely right.

tunaman

Wicknight wrote:

The reality that there a dozens of independent terrorist movements, each with individual independent cells, opperating out there, acting on their own planning and inititive is too scary an idea.

If that's true, can you explain why, despite the borders of the US being completely wide open before and even after 9/11, there have been NO terrorist attacks there?

Wait a minute, there was that anthrax attack just after 9/11, which was blamed on Iraq, but the story went deathly quiet after it was traced back to a US military base...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/anthrax/story/0,1520,653082,00.html

So despite the actions of the US in the World, especially after 9/11, not even one of these independent terrorist movements you are talking about has even tried to attack inside the US...

I have been telling people about the FBI website not linking Bin Laden to 9/11 for a good while now, but most people try to shrug it off as mere incompetence, yet again...

Scotty #

One of the best videos I've seen about 9/11.
I've actually only watched the first 30 mins so far and I'm not saying I believe it bit its very, very convincing.

Gurgle

tunaman wrote:

I have been telling people about the FBI website not linking Bin Laden to 9/11 for a good while now, but most people try to shrug it off as mere incompetence, yet again...

Just after September 11 (September 12th maybe), OBL issued a statement that he wasn't responsible, congratulating whoever had done it.

I've never heard how it was determined that he was involved.

Was anything ever released except for that tape?

ISAW

Gurgle wrote:

Just after September 11 (September 12th maybe), OBL issued a statement that he wasn't responsible, congratulating whoever had done it.

I've never heard how it was determined that he was involved.

Was anything ever released except for that tape?

I raised this point at the time but maybe bnot here .
But some links are evidenct.
It is fairly accepted that 9/11 was carried out by Muslim fundamentalists. Most of them were Saudi but saudi Arabia was a US base at the time and Bush has many friends who are part of the Saudi Islamofacist dictatorship.

It is also accepted that Bin Laden was close to the Mujihadeen and the Taliban who wanted to have a muslim dictatorship similar to Saudi Arabia. The Taliban and Mujihadeen were assisted by The US in order to kick the Russians out of Afghanistan. Having funded and trained and equipped them the US then lust left Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban to take over.

I have never seen any direct evidence that Osama planned 9/11. I have no doubt he would like people to think he did. But al Khyda is not like an army. It does not have a "head" from which all the orders and plans come that you can cut off and the movement dies. So it is possible someone else in Al khyda planned 9/11. I havent seen evidence for that either.

The largest Muslim state in the world -Indonesia - also had a dictatorship supported by the US. Indeed thay were a big client for Us and UK weaponry. Little was stated of their dictatorship which existed when Saddam was under embargo!

the Chagos Islands were held from the people who own it and the British leased them to the US for one pound and the largest US base outside the US Diego Garcia was built there! They lost their land but Saddam was funded by the US at the same time! Until that is Saddam decided that he wanted to do his own thing.

The whole issue points to double standards.

Now the US Supreme court is stating that you cant have some of these double standards. You cant hold people without trial (against US and international law) and claim
1. international law doesent apply
2. The people are not prisioners of war therefore they do not have the POW rights
3. They are not non combatants so they are not civilians either - so they do not have civilian rights
4. They are not on US soil so they are not entitled to be tried under standard Us practices.

Two major planks of Bush Jr. election will have been removed first that the military can act against terror in a "war" without reference to civil process:-
Now the Us will have to reclassify the Guantanamo prisioners as "POW"s if they want to try them under secret Military courts. But then they will have rights! And they cant take them to the Us or reclassify them as non POWs without having to award due process under civil courts!

Also Bush cant just tell the army to do as he asks without reference. He does not have "ultimate power" like the dictators and potential dictators the US UK France Germany and his regime dealt with

Wolff

Does this kind of post remind anyone of -

Hitler - Holocaust - no direct link

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

Does this kind of post remind anyone of -

Hitler - Holocaust - no direct link

No. Care to expand? Or you just going for godwin?

aidan24326

Nothing linking Bin Laden to 9/11. The FBI have already admitted as much. Bin Laden himself denied any involvement. Now obviously if he had been the mastermind you'd expect him to be gloating over it, not denying it so someone else could take the credit. The whole thing stinks really. There's still media reports of him making videos, giving audio speeches etc., despite reports from the Middle East and Pakistan that he is already dead. Saw that faked video myself, it was laughably bad. The guy in the video barely looks anything like Bin Laden.

Nick_oliveri

Wolff wrote:

Does this kind of post remind anyone of -

Hitler - Holocaust - no direct link

Now that sort of comparison is just going a bit too far. Doncha think???

aidan24326 wrote:

Saw that faked video myself, it was laughably bad. The guy in the video barely looks anything like Bin Laden.

See the attachment, spot the odd one out!!

Edit: "E" looks more like saddam!!!!

bonkey

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0607040211jul04,1,5984422.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

The CIA shut Alec Station, the unit tasked with finding him.

From the article:

CIA officials said that tracking bin Laden and his deputies remains a high priority, and that the decision to disband the unit is not a sign that the effort has slackened. Instead, the officials said, the realignment reflects a belief that the agency can better deal with high-level threats by focusing on regional trends rather than on specific organizations or individuals.

"The efforts to find Osama bin Laden are as strong as ever," said Jennifer Dyck, a CIA spokeswoman.

Class. Pure class.

civdef

I have never seen any direct evidence that Osama planned 9/11.

What are you expecting, that he issues a confession?

Oh wait:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1708091.stm

RedPlanet

civdef wrote:

What are you expecting, that he issues a confession?

Oh wait:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1708091.stm

HAHA!
That's that tape that looks like somebody else and shows the geezer writing with the WRONG hand (for it to be Bin Laden).

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

Gurgle

civdef wrote:

What are you expecting, that he issues a confession?

Oh wait:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1708091.stm

American intelligence officers are said to have recovered the tape from a house in the eastern Afghan town of Jalalabad following the collapse of the ruling Taleban, who were harbouring Bin Laden.

Yes, thats right.
He boasts about every attack ever carried out by anyone he's ever heard of.
After 9/11, he said it wasn't him & congratulated the people who had done it.

Then he went to Jalalabad and made a home video confessing to it.

Then he ran away to a cave, leaving the video behind as evidence.

uh-huh!

civdef

Ah yes, it's a fake, of course. I'll file it up there with the moon landings and the planes hitting the pentagon. How silly of me.

Wolff

Yes Civdef.. can you not see its proven beyond doubt by that famous investigative organisation, whose credentials are beyond reproach
www.whatreallyhappened.com

I pity you believing something posted to that sham, fly by night organisation the BBC.

Now back to my own website...www.worldsbiggestmickey.com

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

Yes Civdef.. can you not see its proven beyond doubt by that famous investigative organisation, whose credentials are beyond reproach
www.whatreallyhappened.com

Well the guy who runs the site borders on "loon", he does have a habit of finding intresting stories (thats all the site really is, a news aggregrator).

However having said that the picture line up of Bin Laden the video one doesn't even remotely look like him at all.

Plus do you not think if he had actually admitted to doing it they would update the FBI site, as the original post was all about.

civdef

People are reading an awful lot into the FBI person's comments. It all comes down to what they consider "hard evidence". They may just not reckon that a video like the one above would be sufficient to get a conviction on. Courts tend not to like relying on a single confession, particularly if the accused person is contesting it.

By "hard evidence" they may be referring to physical evidence, of which there probably is very little to find.

Hobbes

civdef wrote:

People are reading an awful lot into the FBI person's comments.

That person being a senior person in the CIA.

Or maybe reading something into the fact that Administration said they had "Hard Evidence" and it would be released but never was. The only thing released is a video where the person in it if it was OBL would of gotten the reverse operation Micheal Jackson got.

Not that we should believe Bin Laden, despite claiming live on TV in the middle east around that time straight out denying any involvement in the attacks.

Or prehaps the fact the administration no longer refer to OBL in relation to 9/11 but instead AQ.

Courts tend not to like relying on a single confession, particularly if the accused person is contesting it.

Wow you think he will get his day in a real court! I love your optimism.

Wibbs

civdef wrote:

Ah yes, it's a fake, of course. I'll file it up there with the moon landings and the planes hitting the pentagon. How silly of me.

Indeed it is silly to lump that dodgy bit of tape with those other examples. It is a fake. The man in the video doesn't look like him, writes with the wrong hand and speaks a different dialect/accent of Arabic. None of the other "senior" figures of AQ that are supposed to be in the video are known. The pentagon distanced themselves from it pretty rapidly when such problems were pointed out to them. Ever wonder why you heard so little since of the video, considering how damning it would be if proved true? Regardless of how you stand on OBL's involvement, that video is dodgy to say the least.

civdef

That person being a senior person in the CIA.

"The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” "

Wow you think he will get his day in a real court! I love your optimism.

Nope, I can't see that happening, and I'm still not convinced yer man isn't dead, but the FBI will still be loking atthis as a criminal case.

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

Ah yes, it's a fake, of course. I'll file it up there with the moon landings and the planes hitting the pentagon. How silly of me.

Don't you think that giving the American people a video of Osama confessing was an absolute polictical necessity? Doesn't finding such a clearcut and orchestrated confession within that time frame strike you as miraculous given that they still haven't come close to capturing the man himself 5 years later.

When the subsequent invasion of Iraq on the grounds of them harbouring weapons of mass destruction proved false, the reason changed to Sadam being a despot and various bizzare efforts made to link him with Osama.
It is simply a culture where the hierarchy of American polictics communicates with it's people on the crudest level. Sadam bad, war good. Plane hit buliding, Osama did it.

The truth of global terrorism is that it is multi faceted and extraordinarily unpredictable. Cells of extremists based everywhere waiting for commands or who are simply entirely self regulated.

It is a generally accepted idea that large American corporations disregard laws and humanity to achieve their goals so what would stop their govenrment from doing exactly the same?

The Guantanamo Bay detainment camp seems to be finally coming to an end after essentially the whole western world gently informing the US that is was unsustainibly illegal and they have recently been found out on their infamous rendition flights also.

Now consider America as a global arms dealer. They've armed Israel to the hilt. They've armed the middle east. Now they're invoved in a massive mess in Iraq and would probably back Israel another illegal war in Iran. Why?
Economy, the establisment of dominant western culture and the assimilation of forced democracies in wartorn contries.

A democracy is the best solution for captialism, simple.

Amercia is now a place where success power, greed and the destruction of moral value s prevail. The obesity in amercia is possibly the worlds first step in human devolution. and the sad fact is that western society has adopted this cuture of lazy unaspiring materialism. Art is dead, shopping lives.
They sell everthing incliding christian fundamentalism.

Maybe Islamic culture doesn't want this shoved down their throat.

So do you really find hard to believe that such a warmongering and capitialist nation would doctor a video to appease it's nation given the atrocities it carries out on a dialy basis?

civdef

If it was such an obvious fake - why hasn't the proof it was fake been all over the shop rather than on some obscure conspiracy sites?

Do you really think no-one would seize this perfect opportunity to nail the Bush administration if it was so easy to show as a fake?

civdef

and the assimilation of forced democracies in wartorn contries.

A democracy is the best solution for captialism, simple.

Boo hiss, down with democracy!

SkepticOne

stevejazzx wrote:

Amercia is now a place where success power, greed and the destruction of moral value s prevail. The obesity in amercia is possibly the worlds first step in human devolution. and the sad fact is that western society has adopted this cuture of lazy unaspiring materialism. Art is dead, shopping lives.
They sell everthing incliding christian fundamentalism.

Maybe Islamic culture doesn't want this shoved down their throat.

I'm in Malaysia at the moment. They like shopping here. The shopping malls are far better than anything you would see in Ireland. I'm writing this from outside a Starbucks for the free wifi.

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

If it was such an obvious fake - why hasn't the proof it was fake been all over the shop rather than on some obscure conspiracy sites?

Do you really think no-one would seize this perfect opportunity to nail the Bush administration if it was so easy to show as a fake?

Well the video has been highlighted by various causes but to prove in a court of law that the video is fake is an impossiblity. The Bush administration has ignored everything thus far, do you really someone can nail them over a video when the untied nations and the reat of the world has failed to 'nail'(your word!) them over an illegal war

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

Boo hiss, down with democracy!

what do you think of Iraqs current democracy?

Is it legal/just?
Are people happy?
Is it recognised internationally by anyone apart from america as actually being a functional democratic state.
Does America have the right to froce a political system on a contry even if they believe they acting the best intrests of that people?
Do you think it will last?

civdef

Just look at the WMD in Iraq thing. Every little inconsistency in the Bush administration's case was torn to shreds by the world media. The same with Gitmo.

The media wouldn't have to prove beyond resonable doubt that the video was fake in a court, just point out inconsistencies, but they haven't. They have plenty of people who would be experts in video analysis, and it's inconceivable that plenty of them weren't looking at the video with a view to picking holes in it.

stevejazzx

SkepticOne wrote:

I'm in Malaysia at the moment. They like shopping here. The shopping malls are far better than anything you would see in Ireland. I'm writing this from outside a Starbucks for the free wifi.

Yeah freedom is great, well done, but at what price? The perpetual dumbing down of generations into perfect consumers?

Hobbes

civdef wrote:

Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI.

Like I said. A senior person within the FBI. Not just some random lacky.

If it was such an obvious fake - why hasn't the proof it was fake been all over the shop rather than on some obscure conspiracy sites?

Funny you should say that.

Remember the whole Niger/Yellowcake incident. The documents that turned out to be fake, were so badly faked that a school child could of told they were fake. However after this was found out one of the senior heads of the CIA said "Why are we not investigating who faked these documents?".

Or another example, Karl Rove said on interview on TV that he didn't name Plames wife by her actual name so he couldn't be convicted of treason despite him saying that an email backing it up to said reporter he is still roaming free and part of the Bush Administration.

Or prehaps when it went from WMD in Iraq to maybe we will find a program of planning to make WMD to "Hes a bad man". Why wasn't the president investigating for straight out lying?

Its not just one lie, or one faked document. There are numerous instantces in relation the Bush Administration.

You are asking the right question though, why isn't anyone pulling him on this crap?

The guy in the OBL video if you ignore the fact it is the wrong hand used, different dialect you are still left with the fact that he doesn't even remotely look like OBL and that is the only evidence to date the administration have pulled out to say that OBL was connected to 9/11.

civdef

Answering your questions:

what do you think of Iraqs current democracy?

Is it legal/just? Yes it is, the people of Iraq voted in an election that was judged open and transparent by independent observers

Are people happy? Happy that their government was freely elected, with the overall political situation, with the price of bread, or with the certain knowledge inner peace is achievable? Very broad question.

Is it recognised internationally by anyone apart from america as actually being a functional democratic state. Eh, the UN and pretty much every other country in the world

Does America have the right to froce a political system on a contry even if they believe they acting the best intrests of that people? No, but the fact that large numbers of Iraqis freely turned out to vote suggestes to me that they weren't having democracy forcibly imposed.

Do you think it will last? I'm an optimist. So yes.

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

Just look at the WMD in Iraq thing. Every little inconsistency in the Bush administration's case was torn to shreds by the world media. The same with Gitmo.

So if you accept this why so hard accept the video could be a fake, I'm not it is, just that there is every possibility that it is.

civdef wrote:

The media wouldn't have to prove beyond resonable doubt that the video was fake in a court, just point out inconsistencies, but they haven't. They have plenty of people who would be experts in video analysis, and it's inconceivable that plenty of them weren't looking at the video with a view to picking holes in it.

Various media sources all over the world questioned it authenticity. After 9-11 not many publications would permit material said to anti amercian in content or sentiment so most of the unbiased coverage commetned only on it's questionable origins

SkepticOne

stevejazzx wrote:

Yeah freedom is great, well done, but at what price? The perpetual dumbing down of generations into perfect consumers?

I will pass on your suggestion that they should go back to the fields and lead a decent non-consumerist lifestyle.

civdef

Like I said. A senior person within the FBI. Not just some random lacky.

No, you said CIA, have a look and check if you like.

civdef

Various media sources all over the world questioned it authenticity. After 9-11 not many publications would permit material said to anti amercian in content or sentiment so most of the unbiased coverage commetned only on it's questionable origins

Feel free to produce evidence of the above.

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

Are people happy? Happy that their government was freely elected, with the overall political situation, with the price of bread, or with the certain knowledge inner peace is achievable? Very broad question.

Is it recognised internationally by anyone apart from america as actually being a functional democratic state. Eh, the UN and pretty much every other country in the world

Does America have the right to froce a political system on a contry even if they believe they acting the best intrests of that people? No, but the fact that large numbers of Iraqis freely turned out to vote suggestes to me that they weren't having democracy forcibly imposed.

Do you think it will last? I'm an optimist.

[/QUOTE]


Don't you find war an unusual climate for a general elction?
Iraqi people are not happy, only Fox news can imagine such a prospect.
International opinion is that Americans have created a mess.

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

Feel free to produce evidence of the above.

You want to produce evidence that media sources have questioned the BIn laden tape? talk about shooting fish in a barrel....

Hobbes

civdef wrote:

No, you said CIA, have a look and check if you like.

Oh right so I make a mistake in a post and we should just ignore the evidence? :rolleyes:

Or where you trying to make some point?

civdef

Yep, go for it. I'm interested to see what inconsistencies they identified.

stevejazzx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1711288.stm

I hope the bbc is ok a source

civdef

Hobbes wrote:

Oh right so I make a mistake in a post and we should just ignore the evidence? :rolleyes:

Or where you trying to make some point?

Evidence?

Anyway, I was just pointing out your apparent confusion between the FBI and the CIA. No point was intended at the time, but I suppose if I wanted to, I could say it draws attention to a certain carelessness with the facts or a potential inability to process the facts in the original article.

RedPlanet

Hobbes wrote:

The guy in the OBL video if you ignore the fact it is the wrong hand used, different dialect you are still left with the fact that he doesn't even remotely look like OBL and that is the only evidence to date the administration have pulled out to say that OBL was connected to 9/11.

In fairness, he doesn't look like OBL to those that are paying attention.
Some folks here in the west just see the white cap and long greying beard on an Arab looking man and therefore automatically believe it's OBL.
If you scrutinize the facial features, and pay attention to how fat the face in that video is, then the differences become apparent.

Remember during the Tsuami disaster when this Swedish child was missing from hospital? And this Thai doctor reportedly saw the child leaving w/ and adult male and the press were going bananas?
Later, when the child was found safe, the Thai doctor admitted that all white children look the same to him.
Just like you might hear a white person claim that black people look the same or that asians look the same and they find it hard to tell one from the other.
I think it's that very thing that makes westerns see "OBL" in that video.

civdef

I hope the bbc is ok a source

Oh definitely, I like the way the do balanced reporting. Now are any of the experts qouted actually questioning the video's authenticity?

stevejazzx

civdef wrote:

Oh definitely, I like the way the do balanced reporting. Now are any of the experts qouted actually questioning the video's authenticity?

what do they call that river in egypt?

oh time for lunch....

Hobbes

civdef wrote:

Evidence?

Anyway, I was just pointing out your apparent confusion between the FBI and the CIA.

No confusion. Just a mistype. As for evidence, the evidence was that a high up official said it. Not some random lacky, which you appeared to be trying to infer.

but I suppose if I wanted to, I could say it draws attention to a certain carelessness with the facts or a potential inability to process the facts in the original article.

Or it could just mean a typo based on the fact that I had read the document I linked to just under a month ago.

Of course when you have some facts I would be more then happy to read them.