Most cunning, most devious

InFront

Cosgrave, DeV, Lemass, Haughey, probably the 4 most important leaders in the history of the RoI. Is Bertie the next? Hes been there for a long time now, has had many important ministries, twice Taoiseach (so far), excelled on the European stage, and ringmaster to the Celtic Tiger (theyd have us belive). Hes also a very likely candidate for the Presidency at some stage in the future. The history books are going to have a lot to say about Bertie. What do you think theyll have to say on Bertie so far?

I think hes going to be remembered as one of our most important Taoiseachs. And I dont think hes nearly finished yet. Overall hes done a lot of good and helped further our economic success. If people have been able to give CJH such glowing praise in recent days, I think Bertie, warts and all, is one for one avalanche of praise in years to come.

I dont work for him or FF!

Time Magazine

InFront wrote:

Cosgrave, DeV, Lemass, Haughey, probably the 4 most important leaders in the history of the RoI.

Although boards.ie is great, I don't think DeVore is of that importance yet.

I think hes going to be remembered as one of our most important Taoiseachs.

Taoisigh.

Sand

Berties just an empty shallow ponce.

Really, what does Bertie stand for other than Bertie? As the title suggests, the praise he earned from CJ wasnt exactly that he was the most brilliant or most idealistic.

At the end of the day, Bertie is a reflection on not only the voters but the opposition presented. I think Bertie is little better than pond scum and I think the queue to lick CJs dead ass is disgusting, but who are the alternative -FG/Labour whose main appeal is "Enda Kenny instead of Bertie!"

The legacy of Charlie lives on in the tepid decadent latrine that is Irish politics. Hail to the chief.

The_Minister

Sand wrote:

Really, what does Bertie stand for other than Bertie? As the title suggests, the praise he earned from CJ wasnt exactly that he was the most brilliant or most idealistic.
.

Bertie played down that phrase when he appeared on Tuberdy. He said it referred to one issue and it just got picked up by the media and blown out of all proportion

Diaspora

I'm not so sure he was chief whip for FF during a very fractous period and protected his master increadibly well.

Ray777

I think Charles Haughey summed up my feelings about Bertie Ahern. Not, when he described him as "cunning and devious", but far more recently than that. In a recent interview with Frank McDonald of the Irish Times, CJH described the current government as "the worst in the history of the State" "because they can't seem to get anything right" "But the public don't seem to care, as long as they have money".

I think Bertie will be remembered as a chancer who came into power at the right time. Not one of the most important Taoisigh, but by far the luckiest.

is_that_so

Certainly not the greatest taoiseach.

Bertie's claim to fame and it has served him more than once is his skill in negotiating a deal. Between the brilliant resolution to the European constitution negotiations( not all him but he gets the credit), the northern peace process and successive national agreements he deserves some credit.

Otherwise find myself agreeing with Haughey on all of it especially about the rest of us.:(

Bertie will go down as shrewd rather than brilliant, but he was certainly blessed by the weakness of the opposition leaders across the Dail floor during his time in charge. Think someone like Dukes would have had him on the ropes on various matters.

MrJones

the man that makes a decision by not making a decision or avoiding the subject until it resolves itself. that bertie ahern. mr indecisive. but im sure the record books will show him to have been gr8 which i disagree with.

Victor

Sand wrote:

Hail to the chief.

Hail to the boss?

is_that_so wrote:

Between the brilliant resolution to the European constitution negotiations( not all him but he gets the credit),

Do we have a European constitution?

the northern peace process

Do we have deveolved government?

and successive national agreements he deserves some credit.

Maybe.

Glenbhoy

is_that_so wrote:

Between the brilliant resolution to the European constitution negotiations( not all him but he gets the credit)(

If he negotiated such a brilliant resolutiion, why is there still no EU constitution??

constitutionus

Glenbhoy wrote:

If he negotiated such a brilliant resolutiion, why is there still no EU constitution??

15 out of the 25 eu countries have ratified the constitution. its not gone away theyre just keeping a low profile on it. mark my words who ever is in power for the next five years be it bertie or enda , one of em is gonna smack our noses till we vote right on this one. the only real question is weather its before or after they try to bully france and holland (i think the former, its much easier to do the "ah come on lads, your the only two!" ):rolleyes:

DublinWriter

InFront wrote:

I think hes going to be remembered as one of our most important Taoiseachs.

Nah. He's the 'John Major' of Irish politics, elected leader of a fractious party with the aim of uniting it. He's an LCD 'grey man'.

InFront wrote:

And I dont think hes nearly finished yet.

He is. Never mind support for FF/PD's falling like shit-rain in every pole, never mind the PD's starting to implode, when the back-benchers start to revolt, the leader is in serious trouble.

InFront wrote:

I think Bertie, warts and all, is one for one avalanche of praise in years to come.

P-Pars, Widows pensions, E-Voting, the M50, Dublin Airport, the release of child-sex abusers, bin-charges, A&E, Royston Brady and what ever you're having yourself.

He'll be remembered alright.

MrJones

also appointing mary harney minister for health so she can take all he flak for that mess. A really good taoiseach would have said "right, we have money to spare, the Country is in good shape economically, let's sort out the health system for once and for all". Instead it's the usual fuddy duddy, we spent bla bla amount of money in the last year in the health system, let's not rock the boat too much.
All they do is get reports on why the health system is the way it is, set up the new health executive. Dr Brendan Drumm, what a joke of an appointment. He's a carbon copy of Bertie, indecisive and lacking leadership.
If you ask me, Bertie Ahern know the end is near for him. His attack on Joe Higgins in Dail last week reflects this. Not to mention his attack on Trevor Sergeant yesterday when asked about Frank Faheys property portfolio.
Rant over/

DublinWriter

MrJones wrote:

also appointing mary harney minister for health so she can take all he flak for that mess.

I agree with all you said MrJones, except the above. Harney requested that Ministership herself.

LovelyHurling

Every country complains about the leadership of the day. When the dust settles on his leadership I think that will change, but have no doubt its too early for some people to appreciate that. To the person who listed off his faults, you did forget to mention the property market and some questions over education, but thats an impressively short list for a man whos been in power for 9 years. Did you expect a clean slate?

I think one area hes especially strong on is foreign affairs. His European achievments have already been discussed. My own admiration for him is for all of his work in the North and the effort he has put into Stormont and the peace processes with Blair without having the work clouded by his republicanism. In my mind he has outshined the work done by Garret Fitzgerald to be the most forward thinking and useful of all the leaders of the southern governemnt yet.

aidan24326

When Charlie Haughey said that, it was in no way intended as a compliment. According to Terry Keane, who knew CJH better than most, he didn't rate Bertie at all. Didn't support him for FF leadership. Reckoned he lacked what it took to be a really good leader. Whether Bertie proved him wrong or not is open to debate. Personally I think Bertie is a chancer who got lucky in many ways, and in the future we may find out that he has had his fingers in just as many cookie jars as Charlie. That 'man of the people' facade is just that, a facade and people have bought into it for far too long. If he is/was good at one thing, that was it, the ability to portray himself as all things to all people, keeping everyone placated while not really standing for anything much. Ultimately you don't get to his position by being a nice guy, or even by being a 'good politician', whatever that is. You get there by a combination of a little bit of luck and an awful lot of knowing/being in with the right people, i.e those who control money and big business.

aidan24326

aidan24326 wrote:

in the future we may find out that he has had his fingers in just as many cookie jars as Charlie.

So you think he's as corrupt as Haughey? Pretty serious charges to level - let's face it the 'we may find out' isn't much of a rider. I think you should be more specific.

aidan24326

Deleted User wrote:

So you think he's as corrupt as Haughey? Pretty serious charges to level - let's face it the 'we mayfind out' isn't much of a rider. I think you should be more specific.

Conor I think you will find there is corruption at that level that goes beyond what the ordinary person will generally ever hear about. Ok, to accuse him of being as bad as Haughey may seem harsh but you must remember that that is just unfortuantely the way things work at that level. And yes I do know a thing or two about the bould Bertie but I don't know what I'd be allowed to say here. I don't wish to sound overly cynical but you should treat all senior politicians with due suspicion.