TPTK on flushing board

MadsL

Here's a common situation for me in small stakes MTT ($5-$10) that has me throwing the keyboard across the room in frustration.

eg: Holding AQ - 4BB raise out of position. One caller on button.
Flop say Q xx - two suits.

My move - I've tried everything from pot, overbet, massive bet or all-in when I have them covered. Button inevitable calls with a flush draw, of course these muppets hit. Guy did this to me last night when I had massive CL - 5 players left - cost me 1st in the tournie and had me limping into 3rd (tilting like a good 'un)

Any ideas when they just ignore pot odds, should I be much more cautious with TPTK???

pok3rplaya

Just don't pay them off when they hit.

If you get your chips in before it hits, well done good play. Deal with it and move on.

wayfarer

If he's calling no matter what the odds are then you probably should keep pushing but you might want to read this article written by some fish over at 2+2

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue16/sklansky0406.html

MadsL

But could it also be wrong with smaller stacks? More specifically, could it be right to just call his flop bet?

With big stacks the only good reason to call would be to induce a bluff. But perhaps with smaller stacks it would be right to just call to make sure a heart doesn't come off. At this point do a little thinking.

mmmm....tbh, I'm starting to lean toward smooth calling the flop here with the plan of moving in on the turn. Trouble is then you get into situations when he then picks up a inside straight draw and it looks more juicy for him to call.

wayfarer

But he's making even more of a mistake since 13 outs is much less than 9x2.

Sometimes you want him to call in these situations.

MadsL

it looks more juicy

As I said, muppets.

brianmc

MadsL wrote:

As I said, muppets.

Push and let them call. Jesus - they only hit 1/3rd of the time!

Gholimoli

MadsL wrote:

mmmm....tbh, I'm starting to lean toward smooth calling the flop here with the plan of moving in on the turn. Trouble is then you get into situations when he then picks up a inside straight draw and it looks more juicy for him to call.

Checking/smooth calling his bet here is often a mistake.
If you flop TPTK and you put your opponent on FD it’s a mistake not to bet.
You cant be thinking “well ,he is going to call my bet anyway, and he will prob hit ,so my chip lead is gone and im gonna come third instead of second …”
If you bet here and bet enough, you’re playing the hand correctly.
If you don’t bet you’re playing the hand incorrectly.
If you don’t bet and he hits his draw and then you call his bets then this is the biggest mistake you can make.
Usually what I would do in this situation is make a big bet to protect against flush draws.
If the bet is called and flush card hits on the turn I would get defensive (check/call,check/fold).
If flush doesn’t hit then im often all in on the turn here providing it’s a relatively safe turn.

MadsL

As you say the big bet is right, I think my mistake here is the all-in on the flop. If the third card comes I can get away with less damage to the stack, although he gets FE for a bluff say with A or K of the suit - am I likely to call a big bet on turn with TPTK?

Gholimoli

MadsL wrote:

As you say the big bet is right, I think my mistake here is the all-in on the flop. If the third card comes I can get away with less damage to the stack, although he gets FE for a bluff say with A or K of the suit - am I likely to call a big bet on turn with TPTK?

i dont think the all in on the flop is as ig a mistake as not betting the flop at all or betting the flop and then calling a big bet from him when the flush hits.
when you bet the flop enough not to give him enough odds to draw,if he calls he will call thinking if he hits can extract more money from you as you will pay him off with a worse hand.so your leaking impplied odds.if you dont pay him off then his play is a mistake and you have played the hand perfectly.
ppl genrally find it hard to let go of flush draws on the flop for anything less than a pot size bet.
even though they actually need 4:1 to see the turn ,they often make a mistake of thinking they only need 2:1 odds(they have read some where that 9 outs you need 2:1 on the flop to the river.they forget that this is the odds you need providing there is no more betting on future streets.if your only going to see the turn then you need 4:1 but thats genrally why they call).
with TPTK you want to finish the hand as quick as possible.
the lower your pair is the more concerned you should be about protecting your hand as there are more over cards that can come .
for example with AJ on a J high flop you should be more concerned about protecting against over cards than with KQ on K high.
genrally just make sure you dont under bet .over betting i think is less of an error than underbetting.also make sure you can getaway from them as well if you see massive reraises.

phantom_lord

MadsL wrote:

Here's a common situation for me in small stakes MTT ($5-$10) that has me throwing the keyboard across the room in frustration.

eg: Holding AQ - 4BB raise out of position. One caller on button.
Flop say Q xx - two suits.

My move - I've tried everything from pot, overbet, massive bet or all-in when I have them covered. Button inevitable calls with a flush draw, of course these muppets hit. Guy did this to me last night when I had massive CL - 5 players left - cost me 1st in the tournie and had me limping into 3rd (tilting like a good 'un)

Just played a hand that is fairly similiar, hit trips with my pockets on the flop, flush draw on the board, I bet enough so that he's getting bad odds on the fd, so in the long run if the bets are called even if he hits a bit more than he should, I should still come out ahead.


I think....