Major differences between ITF and WTF?

Black Swan

Like sure, if we pull up the constitutions, organizational structures, procedures, and rules of ITF and WTF, we would probably find some differences. But as masters, instructors, competitors, and students of these two approaches to taekwondo, from a practice standpoint when sparring, are there any major differences between the two? In other words, does one prepare you better than the other for sparring or SD or whatever, in your opinion, and why?

Black Swan

Elytron wrote:

Blue lagoon you never posted here with a different username did you you remind me of a different user.

Like no. I'm not even Irish, but pure So Cal.

From your answer, I would assume that you are ITF?

Roper

ITF- Semi contact ethos, but punches.
WTF- Full contact ethos but no punches worth mentioning.

I'd say they about balance out for a self defence situation. Varies from club to club though. What I mean by that is I'd say they're both not the best.

Given a choice, I'd rather do WTF because it seems to produce better athletes on the whole. Just my humble one...

Stigster

Roper wrote:

WTF- Full contact ethos but no punches worth mentioning.

The problem with punches in WTF I think is that no one knows what it takes to score a point with a punch in a sparring match. In order to score with your fist you have to actually move your opponent, not just hit him. When wearing the vest, all the padding means you need to hit really hard to accomplish that. A result of the lack of hitting, WTF'ers (like myself) hardly know how to use an armguard when sparring leaing the arms hanging loose to the side to conserve strength. A bad choice I'd say because you loose valuable time when blocking.

That said, I prefer WTF. I'll be doing ITF this coming year, but I think I'll return to WTF rules when the years is over. I prefer "the olympic way" when sparring. :-P

-The Stigster!

pma-ire

Elytron wrote:

I'd presume ITF prepares you better for ITF rule sparring better than WTF would for ITF rules and vice versa. I've got the impression the WTF guys can be better at WTF rules then ITF are at ITF rules. But for a kickboxing rules match I'd say the ITF rules would be superior to the WTF and this would be the same for SD.

I'd agree with this version!!

If they merged the two styles with WTF kicks (which are natural and powerful and used to hitting full contact) and ITF hands they would have a better version than both are now!!

Unpossible

If they merged the two styles

Why havent they done something like this already?

Then again I can see it with my own MA, if we allowed punches to the head (which is what some people want to add) it would change the nature of the beast.

pma-ire

Unpossible wrote:

Why havent they done something like this already?

Then again I can see it with my own MA, if we allowed punches to the head (which is what some people want to add) it would change the nature of the beast.

ITF are split in 3 since Gen Choi passed on!

So they have to clean up thier own house first!!

RealJohn

Personally, I'd say that the ITF style, if trained properly, would lend itself more to a real situation, since it. Obviously, pure ITF with it's side-stances and touch contact wouldn't be much use but an approach more akin to the AIMAA style of ITF would be much more functional than WTF in my opinion.

On the other hand, like Roper said, WTF tends to produce better athletes and, again in my opinion, a better athlete will be better able for a self defence scenario, regardless of his training style (assuming of course that we're comparing like with like: two trad styles rather than trad vs. MMA/other functional style).

crazy monkey

ITF -very similar to karate to be honest I studied it under Terry Donnelly and even thought he was great he could just as easily been a kempo instructor.

WTF or Olympic style TKD is all about point sparring really I studied it for a good few years foughts lots of competitions. No shots to the head with punches and you don't score for body punches so legs only really.

As for self defense it's just like kata you only need to show it when you are going for a grade.

Different in all countries obviously like Iran for instance has a professional wtf tkd league.

There are also other various tkd braches such as hee il cho's AIMAA-action international martials arts academy I think it stands for. Their base is tkd but with elements of hapkido karate and some grappling.

There's the ITA - they are very strong solid kararteka like but they are the best for old school punching/kicking self defense....

Hope this helps

RealJohn

crazy monkey wrote:

As for self defense it's just like kata you only need to show it when you are going for a grade.

For the record, every time I referred to self-defence in my above post, I meant as in how it prepares you for actually defending yourself in real life, not the rubbish they label self-defence and ask you in gradings.

Millionaire

I did WTF for about 3 years, when I lived over in Canada.

Now this school, was very sports focused, getting fighters up to olympic standards.

The training was hard, the sparring was hard with heavy contact. these guys could kick fast, hard, and could take your head off with a spnning kick in a blink of an eye. there was a high injury rate, broken ribs, KOs, broken toes, etc. though the punching skills were weak to non existant.

Looking back, it was a tough, hard combat sport.

pma-ire

Another reason why WTF sparring is different to ITF sparring is so that it would not be too like Karate which was in the Olympics before TKD!!

This gave it a better chance of being acepted as a sport and as a Martial Art that was not really like Karate! But they were in danger of being chucked out of the Olympics as the board thought that in reality it was very like Karate and there would not be a need to have two MA fighting styles so alike.

Millionaire

Alot of people slag WTF because of lack of punching skills.

However, take it from an athletic sport point of view, get in and compete under WTF rules.... I tell you, when those top WTF competitiors kick you, you will know about it! I think these combat athletes in WTF are very under rated...I trained with some top canadian competitiors, and these guys trained really hard. Up at 530am to go running in minus -30 degrees in 2 feet of snow!!! that takes massive heart!

After a few mornings of that, I had 2nd thoughts about becoming a top TKD competitior!

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

Alot of people slag WTF because of lack of punching skills.

However, take it from an athletic sport point of view, get in and compete under WTF rules.... I tell you, when those top WTF competitiors kick you, you will know about it! I think these combat athletes in WTF are very under rated...I trained with some top canadian competitiors, and these guys trained really hard. Up at 530am to go running in minus -30 degrees in 2 feet of snow!!! that takes massive heart!

After a few mornings of that, I had 2nd thoughts about becoming a top TKD competitior!

they are better at kicking at high speeds than itf due to the fact that they kick to spar mainly!

but dropping the hands was only done for politics without any thought of real combat! this is why they stick to the sport tag and not MA/Sport.

crazy monkey

Real John in my post I'm sure if you understood the point I was making
Basically WTF TKD in this country at least concentrates solely on competition and any self defense techniques - which include spinning heels to the head [often seen on O Connell St on Saturday nights don't you know] are only thought coming upto a grading they are never practiced and are not seen as part of the "art" at all.

It's competition, competition, competition.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

Millionaire

the thing I noticed at WTF, was in the forms, their mostly hand techniques. I always felt, that alot of what was in the art form was lost because of the massive emphasis on competitions...

that happened in a way to kickboxing too, when this point fighting rubbish came in, alot of the real good hard kickboxing went out the window. what would make an instructor more money... a few dedicated men training hard...or a room full of kids and teens, with the points stuff, who pay for all the gradings, and mom and dad, have to pay into see the competitions?

Clive

crazy monkey wrote:

you don't score for body punches so legs only really.

I don't want to get into the whole ITF vs WTF debate, but you can score for punches to the body in WTF competition.

pma-ire

Clive wrote:

I don't want to get into the whole ITF vs WTF debate, but you can score for punches to the body in WTF competition.

the only way to score in wtf is to move your opponent back!

thats hard to do with your fists to the body!

i think they are banned from punching to the face?? i was at an Ireland - Korea fight night in Cork years back!! Korean National team v Irish WTF and ITF fighting WTF rules!!

the koreans got peed when the ITF lads punched them in the face

and got points taken off them!!

pma-ire

But you got to give it them!!

They can kick!!

http://www.funtra.com/contentx/videos/martial/tornadokickx.shtml

Clive

pma-ire wrote:

the only way to score in wtf is to move your opponent back!

thats hard to do with your fists to the body!

You don't have to move your opponent back to score a point:

Article 12. Valid Points
...
2. Points shall be awarded when permitted techniques are delivered accurately and powerfully to the legal scoring areas of the body.

The old term that used to be used was "trembling shock", but the principle is the same - also modern electronic body armour doesn't differentiate between kicks and punches.

The problem arises that contests go from just outside kicking range to clinch range so quickly that few WTF practitioners have the ability to land effective punches.

pma-ire

Clive wrote:

You don't have to move your opponent back to score a point:



The old term that used to be used was "trembling shock", but the principle is the same - also modern electronic body armour doesn't differentiate between kicks and punches.

The problem arises that contests go from just outside kicking range to clinch range so quickly that few WTF practitioners have the ability to land effective punches.

I rememeber that term "Trembling Shock!" so if you scare them sh1tless you score

But I was told by a WTF 5th dan that they only really score if the strike moves them back or stops them.

Maybe it's changed a little??

Black Swan

pma-ire wrote:

But I was told by a WTF 5th dan that they only really score if the strike moves them back ...

Maybe it's changed a little??

At all the WTF events that I have competed in, ref'd or judged in the States:
1) No points for punching below age 14.
2) Age 14 or older, a single point is awarded only if you hit your opponent in the chest protector so hard that it physically moves their body back. Like we are talking very hard and solid punches!
3) Punches to the face maybe warned, penalized (1/2 pt or full pt.), or result in disqualification.

As a result, many WTF dojangs and competitors concentrate on kicks. Most kicking appears to be of the roundhouse variety (especially for women), but fast and powerful spin kicks to the head for 2 points seem to be increasing over the past year in US competitions (age 14 and older for WTF) at the local, regional, state, and national competitions. Like these are not "playing tag" kicks for points during this past year, with many an opponent being knocked off balance or going down at the events that I have attended.

Most, if not all, WTF tournaments specify semi-contact points for head shots in the States. But the judging of what constitutes contact seems to be changing in the States (especially on the west coast), with the lines between semi-contact and full-contact becoming blurred. Like if the head shot KOs or TKOs a competitor, the kicker will usually be awarded 2 points if no blood is drawn from the strike (and the bout if the opponent cannot resume). This also happened in the 2004 Olympics (WTF Rules) when a smaller in height Korean male axe kickked to the head a taller (Greek?) opponent and dropped him to win (sorry, I cannot remember the division).

For SD (although WTF style in our dojang), we train not just for testing, but also for street (kicks, punches, blocks, combination techniques, as well as defense against weapons). We have to! Our city (suburb) is in LA Metro with a population of 14 million, and it has been reported by the US Bureau of Criminal Justice Statistics that over 17,000 gang members reside in a nearby city.

Miles Long

Isn't there a massive difference in the size of the ring for competing? It seems to me that a hallmark of WTF is the styles ability cover great distances with with a variety of leg attacks with isn't practiced in ITF so much because it isn't practically applicable while sparring.

Millionaire

Blue Lagoon got it right about WTF competitions.

When I competed, and sparred, there would be full power punches to the chest, and even with those protectors on you would feel it tough!

there was lots of KOs with spinning kicks in the comps I was in, usually at higher red to black belt.

Black Swan

Miles Long wrote:

Isn't there a massive difference in the size of the ring for competing? It seems to me that a hallmark of WTF is the styles ability cover great distances with with a variety of leg attacks with isn't practiced in ITF so much because it isn't practically applicable while sparring.

The competition areas for ITF and WTF are different in size.

"ITF Tournament Rules, Article 11, Square" states "Square size will be 9 by 9 meters of floor space..."

http://www.tkd-itf.org/pdf/ITF_Tournament_Rules.pdf

"Competition Rules, The World Taekwondo Federation (effective as of July 1, 2002), Article 3 Competition Area, 1. Demarcation of the Contest Area, 1) The 12m x 12m area shall be called the Contest Area..."

http://www.bang.com.br/rules2002wtf.pdf

Miles Long may be correct. In official tournaments, WTF affords more space to fight, as does the Olympics. And more space allows for more combinations of kicks which we teach, practice in tournament, and apply for SD, so he may have a valid point (Great observation!).

micro-ice

I know its been said before here but ill throw it in anyway, it really depends on the school you attend and not the affiliation it has to a governing body that makes the difference, i have been studying WTF TKD for about 3 years now and olympic style sparring makes up a very small part of the weekly training sessions
our schools main focus is to build strength improve accuracy,self control and teach awareness.
our school also has affiliations with changmookwan style TKD and as a result in class, technique and s.d have a higher priority that competition fighting.
so my point is its mainly down to the school and instructor as to how useful it would be in real life situations and not a case of which organisation ITF,WTF.

i may be alone in this but one final point, in my studies i have found that a better awareness of my surroundings and a stronger sense of self control have been to me some of the best methods of self defence i have learned.

pma-ire

micro-ice wrote:

so my point is its mainly down to the school and instructor as to how useful it would be in real life situations and not a case of which organisation ITF,WTF.

The WTF is more of a governing body for the sparring style. You could be with any group and join the WTF once you enter there comps and fight there way!!

The ITF on the other hand is really only for Chang Hon TKD people that are following the direct lineage of General Choi Hong Hi. You have to adopt a whole syllabus from them to be accepted.

micro-ice

i understand what your saying as my school teaches Changmookwan style TKD,
i was only trying to point out that at the end of the day it doesnt matter what form of taekwondo you study its down soley to your experiences and the background of your instructor that will influence wheather or not it will be effective in practical situations reguardless of labels such as WTF or ITF

pma-ire

I just looked up Changmookwan and it looks like Korean Karate!!

Many of the Kwans that did not want to go Choi's way went with the WTF so that they could keep doing there own thing!!

It looks like a nice old style group!!

What forms do you practice?

micro-ice

we practice taeguk in our school but when our instructor was training i think he practiced palgue forms

pma-ire

micro-ice wrote:

we practice taeguk in our school but when our instructor was training i think he practiced palgue forms

So they left the original Pyung-Ahn and Won Tul forms for the WTF ones.

It looked like they were still doing the old style forms from the sites??

Where do you train??

micro-ice

in galway city under a student of world instructer jan bartels
(7th Dan)



as to the change in forms i really am unsure as to if it is soley in our club or if it is some attempt at standardisation by the WTF
either way there are probably some clubs still using the forms you mentioned

TKDdean

Which would be more effective in a real life situation ITF or WTF. And is taekwondo an effective system in real life?

buck65

TKDdean
I think in ITF(which I train in) there is more emphasis on boxing , well in my school anyway, as well as kicking.
I suppose there are better martial arts out there for purely self defence but why I chose TKD in the first place is that you are encouraged to spar alot and this allied to learning how to kick and punch, block and guard, makes me a more formidable athlete.
Of course there is a big sports leaning in TKD and we are drilled in point scoring and competitive sparring usually before tournaments but for the rest of the year our instructor points out what will work on the street(punches,low kicks, knees to the groin,elbows etc) and what won't (high kicks etc) so I think its important for the student to realise what works and what doesn't.

pma-ire

TKDdean wrote:

Which would be more effective in a real life situation ITF or WTF. And is taekwondo an effective system in real life?

TKD both WTF and ITF has all the ellements of combat!!

Just cause they spar in a certain way for comps don't mean that they can't use there art baded on real self defence situtations!!

What is your TKD experience??

Whizzo

According to the Chang Un ITF, he being a member of the IOC, is trying to merge the ITF and WTF which he says was a dream of General Choi. Not sure if its for Olympic status and opportunity for that ITF or 'market share' and acceptance re the 3 ITF's. Damn politics, but it would be an interesting development.
http://www.itftkd.org/fileadmin/archive/archive_2006/20061003ITF_GAISF_WTF_IOC_Talks.pdf

pma-ire

Whizzo wrote:

According to the Chang Un ITF, he being a member of the IOC, is trying to merge the ITF and WTF which he says was a dream of General Choi. Not sure if its for Olympic status and opportunity for that ITF or 'market share' and acceptance re the 3 ITF's. Damn politics, but it would be an interesting development.
http://www.itftkd.org/fileadmin/archive/archive_2006/20061003ITF_GAISF_WTF_IOC_Talks.pdf

Well Gen Choi did want this to happen! But if it did happen in his lifetime who do you think would be the president of this new TKD association??

I don't think that he would have wanted his association to split in 3 after his death either! Chang Un and his North Korean ITF seem to be more politically motivated than anything?? Choi is said to have chosen Un to be the next president of the ITF so that a symbolic joining of North and South Korea could be realised!!??

But it seems to have all gone pear shaped :rolleyes:

A classic example of why martial arts should stay out of politics!!!

Whizzo

pma-ire wrote:

Well Gen Choi did want this to happen! But if it did happen in his lifetime who do you think would be the president of this new TKD association??

On a personal level I would prefer to have an active 8th degree master (ie Tran) or 9th degree grandmaster (Choi Jung-Wha) than an ex basketball player and IOC member as President.

pma-ire

Whizzo wrote:

pma-ire wrote:

On a personal level I would prefer to have an active 8th degree master (ie Tran) or 9th degree grandmaster (Choi Jung-Wha) than an ex basketball player and IOC member as President.

Bloody politics!! :mad:

Ritz

They're's an unbelievable difference!!! While WTF focuses on full contact free sparring (and not much else), ITF is a far more balanced style, with more of an emphasis on the practical application of the art. I do ITF Taekwondo and it's great! You learn great self defense techniques and blocks. The ITF was founded by General Choi Hong Hi six years before his exile from South Korea. After this, the WTF was founded to promote the art. However, in WTF accounts of the beginning of Taekwondo, General Choi Hong Hi is left out entirely. It is my opinion that ITF and WTF Taekwondo are two completely different arts. They have different forms and sparring. ITF uses a technique called Sinewave to generate power in hand strikes and blocks which is not used by the WTF. WTF focuses more on kicking techniques, while ITF is more balanced, using lots of hand strikes. Because of this, ITF Taekwondo is more of a realistic defence system
..We have to understand that TKD primarily is use too defence system (build not only physically but also internally-mind and soul)not only for winning in competition/scoring or just to get medal..
ITF kicks are characterized by a wide trajectory with maximum reach (the classical or traditional technique). The movements and the exercises are performed with the typical ITF "sine wave" (an up-and-down body movement aiming at the increasing of power). When executing a technique, a characteristic hissing sound made by a sudden breathing out through the teeth to tighten the abdominal and protect inner organs in case of counter-attack..
ITF Taekwondo seeks self-development and spiritual improvement, while WTF Taekwondo seeks superiority over an opponent—winning.

ITF Taekwondo reflects Eastern values while WTF Taekwondo reflects Western values.

ITF Taekwondo is process-oriented, WTF Taekwondo is result-oriented.

ITF Taekwondo is formalized, WTF Taekwondo is not.

gymrabbit

Ritz wrote:

They're's an unbelievable difference!!! While WTF focuses on full contact free sparring (and not much else), ITF is a far more balanced style, with more of an emphasis on the practical application of the art. I do ITF Taekwondo and it's great! You learn great self defense techniques and blocks. The ITF was founded by General Choi Hong Hi six years before his exile from South Korea. After this, the WTF was founded to promote the art. However, in WTF accounts of the beginning of Taekwondo, General Choi Hong Hi is left out entirely. It is my opinion that ITF and WTF Taekwondo are two completely different arts. They have different forms and sparring. ITF uses a technique called Sinewave to generate power in hand strikes and blocks which is not used by the WTF. WTF focuses more on kicking techniques, while ITF is more balanced, using lots of hand strikes. Because of this, ITF Taekwondo is more of a realistic defence system
..We have to understand that TKD primarily is use too defence system (build not only physically but also internally-mind and soul)not only for winning in competition/scoring or just to get medal..
ITF kicks are characterized by a wide trajectory with maximum reach (the classical or traditional technique). The movements and the exercises are performed with the typical ITF "sine wave" (an up-and-down body movement aiming at the increasing of power). When executing a technique, a characteristic hissing sound made by a sudden breathing out through the teeth to tighten the abdominal and protect inner organs in case of counter-attack..
ITF Taekwondo seeks self-development and spiritual improvement, while WTF Taekwondo seeks superiority over an opponent—winning.

ITF Taekwondo reflects Eastern values while WTF Taekwondo reflects Western values.

ITF Taekwondo is process-oriented, WTF Taekwondo is result-oriented.

ITF Taekwondo is formalized, WTF Taekwondo is not.

Hey Ritz welcome to www.boards.ie MA and SD forum. I think I just about have a problem/disagree with everything you say, do you mind me asking how old you are and how long you've been training in TKD?

Black Swan

Ritz wrote:

ITF Taekwondo seeks self-development and spiritual improvement, while WTF Taekwondo seeks superiority over an opponent—winning.

ITF Taekwondo reflects Eastern values while WTF Taekwondo reflects Western values.

ITF Taekwondo is process-oriented, WTF Taekwondo is result-oriented.

ITF Taekwondo is formalized, WTF Taekwondo is not.

I shared your list with our crew. Our Korean-born (and relatively recent immigrant to the USA) Grand Master (9-dan, WTF, 45 years TKD experience) would not agree with you on any of these differences you proclaim between ITF and WTF. Nor would any of the instructors at our dojang, including myself.