Irish women and feminism

DOLEMAN

OK. Not trying to annoy anyone here...

As lots of us Irish lads will know, Irish women generally use aggression/anger to hide their insecurities. An example of this would be when a bloke tries to chat up an Irish girl in a bar. She'll tell him to **** off. When you try to chat up a non-Irish girl, she's flattered.

Anyway, this brings me onto this subject... Lots of Irish women are feminists. I often wonder how many of these feminists actually care about women, and how many of them just use feminism as a mask - something to hide behind and disguise their insecurities...

Do you know what I mean?

I have high tolerance for people who really believe in what they stand for. But I have no tolerance for people who use politics/philosophies as an excuse. (An example of this would be the lefties who campaign against everything, not because they care, but because they need to campaign.)

Am I making sense?

Anyway. Irish women and feminism. Do they really care or is it just another outlet for their insecurities?

/Before any says, I have no interest in Irish women, so never try to chat them up, so this is not some kind of angry "just been told to **** off" post.
//I'm genuinely interested in the real motives behind Irish feminists

I'm so curious to see a guy being told to f off if he's trying to chat a woman up, I've heard so much about it but never seen/done it...

I'm sure as with anything else there are people who care and people who don't

nesf

Your main issue here is that you need to differentiate between feminists and rabid man-hating "feminists".

AngryAnderson

Um, it really can be quite easily simplified. Some people are sh1theads and some aren't. It's not gender specific and it's hardly a deep philosophical debate waiting to happen IMO. :eek:

Black Swan

If you would like to see a generally opposing viewpoint to this thread, read a little Karen Horney (and no fair making fun of her last name).

nesf

AngryAnderson wrote:

Um, it really can be quite easily simplified. Some people are sh1theads and some aren't. It's not gender specific and it's hardly a deep philosophical debate waiting to happen IMO. :eek:

Agreed. But that doesn't mean people won't have fun coming up with some pseudo-philosophical rants about it.

constitutionus

we dont really have geniune feminism in ireland. what weve got is a bunch of man haters who're trying to dominate the political and legal landscape masquerading as feminists who couldnt give a fiddlers feck about equality. think im wrong? just look at the new law brought in tonight on statuatory rape. under it if a 15yr old girl seduces a 14yr old boy, the boy is charged with rape and put on the sex offenders list. why? because the gov dont want to "stygmatise" single mothers. now if the feminists really were feminists they should be going ****ing mental about this but theres not word one from them.

so thats my take on the societal scale. on the individual scale i agree with the OP. 90% of the people ive worked with were women and its been my experience that women of this generation are seriously trying to overcompensate for their own feelings of inadequacy by trying to act beligerant and bossy and ive had many of em break down in confidence and say they do this in order to get respect and be taken seriously. its really all about this generation being told how to act instead of relying on their own instincts.
when i compare these girls to my boss's (both women in their 40s and 50s respectively) its a total different ball game. no bitchyness, no bullying just compentancy and the assurance that comes with that.

i'll be honest, moderen irish girls have big problems with their self esteem. unfortunetly the only ones who can sort that out is them

simu

constitutionus wrote:

we dont really have geniune feminism in ireland. what weve got is a bunch of man haters who're trying to dominate the political and legal landscape masquerading as feminists who couldnt give a fiddlers feck about equality. think im wrong? just look at the new law brought in tonight on statuatory rape. under it if a 15yr old girl seduces a 14yr old boy, the boy is charged with rape and put on the sex offenders list. why? because the gov dont want to "stygmatise" single mothers. now if the feminists really were feminists they should be going ****ing mental about this but theres not word one from them.

Yeah, crazy man-hating lesbian McDowell! Get him (her?) out of office!

Seriously, could you actually name some of these uber-influential man hating types?

i'll be honest, moderen irish girls have big problems with their self esteem. unfortunetly the only ones who can sort that out is them

So do most modern Irish guys tbh. Good match.

Kernel32

Is it me or are there always a lot of threads on this same subject rehashing the same stuff?

Two points. Why equate agression and anger with feminism? Why equate only women with feminism? Can a man not be a feminism? Can a man not believe that a woman should have equal rights with a man?

AngryAnderson

I'm sorry to be a spoil sport yet again but it seems to me that there are conclusions being derived from people's experiences in this thread that simply don't exist as generalisations. If I had my way, this thread would be closed because, quite frankly, it's utter, utter horsesh1t.

Munya

Kernel32 wrote:

Two points. Why equate agression and anger with feminism? Why equate only women with feminism? Can a man not be a feminism? Can a man not believe that a woman should have equal rights with a man?

Ye but most of them do not like being refered to as feminists.

constitutionus

simu wrote:

Yeah, crazy man-hating lesbian McDowell! Get him (her?) out of office!

Seriously, could you actually name some of these uber-influential man hating types?

joan burton for one, when the ex party barring order was judged to be a violation of mens constitutional rights she campaigned to bring it back. saying its terrible that they cant just feck men out of their own homes without any pretention to natural justice , and ivana bacik for another, shes not too fond of equality in the family law courts. now that ive named one name ANY womens group complaing about the unequal leglislation put through the dail tonight that says a 15yr old girl can seduce a 14 yr old boy and get off scott free while he goes down

simu wrote:

So do most modern Irish guys tbh. Good match.

no ,we dont.

simu

constitutionus wrote:

joan burton for one, when the ex party barring order was judged to be a violation of mens constitutional rights she campaigned to bring it back. saying its terrible that they cant just feck men out of their own homes without any pretention to natural justice , and ivana bacik for another, shes not too fond of equality in the family law courts. now that ive named one name ANY womens group complaing about the unequal leglislation put through the dail tonight that says a 15yr old girl can seduce a 14 yr old boy and get off scott free while he goes down

They don't have that much power tbh. 1 TD and 1 lawyer. There are still plenty of moderates to stick up for men too, if they want.

no ,we dont.

rofl!

constitutionus

simu wrote:

They don't have that much power tbh. 1 TD and 1 lawyer. There are still plenty of moderates to stick up for men too, if they want.

notice you still havent answered my question. what feminists groups are complaining about the sexist leglislation being enacted?

simu wrote:

rofl!

hey, we're not the ones vomiting at our naked bodies in the mirror.

Karl Hungus

Indeed, I don't think it's anything to do with 'Feminism' that some women would use hostility to hide their insecurities.

Here's a tip: Avoid such women - Problem solved!

constitutionus wrote:

hey, we're not the ones vomiting at our naked bodies in the mirror.

Queue 'Vomiting at your naked body' jokes.

simu

constitutionus wrote:

notice you still havent answered my question. what feminists groups are complaining about the sexist leglislation being enacted?

Don't know yet, I'll see if there's anything in the papers about it tomorrow. Anyway, even if feminist groups say nothing about the case, it's still a bit of a leap to say they're "a bunch of man haters who're trying to dominate the political and legal landscape".

hey, we're not the ones vomiting at our naked bodies in the mirror.

No, but the male suicide rate's pretty high in this country.

constitutionus

simu wrote:

Don't know yet, I'll see if there's anything in the papers about it tomorrow. Anyway, even if feminist groups say nothing about the case, it's still a bit of a leap to say they're "a bunch of man haters who're trying to dominate the political and legal landscape".

but its not exactly in keeping with the feminist ideal of equality either is it? and if theyre not really interested in parity of treatment then what are they for besides being a lobby group for preferential treatment

simu wrote:

No, but the male suicide rate's pretty high in this country.

its extradonairy high, but its less to do with our image of ourselves and more to do with the treatement we get in society now. its not low self esteem, its factual discrimination . enforced once again by the dail this very night. women put up a good moan but you have no idea what its like to be a man in this world

metrovelvet

Irish gender relations are stuck in a vicious cycle. The misogyny produces either belligerant women or subservient ones, which then creates more mysogyny.

IMO, from what I can surmise of the recent legislation, it is quite disrespectful to women. Because it does not hold them accountable over their own sexuality, which is ultimately infantilising and dispempowering.

[We are talking about consensual underage sex right?]

What about boy on boy? Are they both rapists then?

constitutionus

metrovelvet wrote:

Irish gender relations are stuck in a vicious cycle. The misogyny produces either belligerant women or subservient ones, which then creates more mysogyny.

IMO, from what I can surmise of the recent legislation, it is quite disrespectful to women. Because it does not hold them accountable over their own sexuality, which is ultimately infantilising and dispempowering.

[We are talking about consensual underage sex right?]

What about boy on boy? Are they both rapists then?

hey met yup theyre both rapists and they'll both go to jail and go on the sex offenders list.

the consentual boy on girl thing is actually worse than i thought. if two 15yrs old have sex and the girl doest get pregnant she goes to jail with the boy. but if she does she's off scott free. now call me mad but thats just ****ing nuts

its almost promoting unsafe sex and single motherhood!

apparently if theyre caught heavy petting they could go down for that too (probably as sexual assault) wait till you see , we havent seen the start of this yet

simu

metrovelvet wrote:

IMO, from what I can surmise of the recent legislation, it is quite disrespectful to women. Because it does not hold them accountable over their own sexuality, which is ultimately infantilising and dispempowering.

I agree completely there.

constitutionus wrote:

but its not exactly in keeping with the feminist ideal of equality either is it? and if theyre not really interested in parity of treatment then what are they for besides being a lobby group for preferential treatment

Well, I'll take a look at the papers tomorrow. I'd agree with you that feminist groups in Ireland are lobby groups to a large degree and also, that they're out of touch with the "woman on the street" but they're not really as powerful as you suggest imo.

The Sweeper

DOLEMAN wrote:

As lots of us Irish lads will know, Irish women generally use aggression/anger to hide their insecurities. An example of this would be when a bloke tries to chat up an Irish girl in a bar. She'll tell him to **** off. When you try to chat up a non-Irish girl, she's flattered.

Interesting viewpoint.

I always found that Ireland was the only place where, on being chatted up in a bar, a polite expression of no interest is greeted with either "You're not that fucking good looking you know" or intimations of lesbianism.

Ireland's actually becoming a hell of country for the battle of the sexes. It certainly isn't going to have the preproductive rates of a stereotypical catholic country if this keeps up - ye'll never speak again, let alone shag.

What fascinates me at this juncture, on the back of YET ANOTHER thread on After Hours about how rubbish Irish women are, is where is this animosity coming from? What's breeding this hopeless misogyny in Irish men?

...do you really have the sort of high standards this board seems to represent, that you want your women to have big, bouncing titties, tiny, flat-bellied waists, successful careers, independent financial status, sexual experience coupled with an intact hymen and the sweet nature of a natural doormat?

What the hell's driving all this anyway?

I like to see top five reasons - go on, top five reasons that you, as Irish blokes, think Irish women are shite. I'm actually fascinated.

constitutionus

you know the one thing that always annoyed me about the "feminist" in this country is theyre compleate condescension to housewives and stay at home mothers. these are the people raising the generation that are gonna pay our pensions and take over from us when were gone yet the contempt leveled at them is extradonairy. take mary robinson for example, she basically came out a month or two back and said if you were a stay at home mother with a degree you were basically a selfish bitch and your letting the side down:eek:

no im sorry but i thought equality was all about choice, not doing what one bunch of priviliged women want you to.

constitutionus

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

...do you really have the sort of high standards this board seems to represent, that you want your women to have big, bouncing titties, tiny, flat-bellied waists, successful careers, independent financial status, sexual experience coupled with an intact hymen and the sweet nature of a natural doormat?

.

hey leave my girlfriend out of this

The Sweeper

...she must be so proud.

simu

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

What the hell's driving all this anyway?

I like to see top five reasons - go on, top five reasons that you, as Irish blokes, think Irish women are shite. I'm actually fascinated.

Maybe AH is not representative - there could well be a large "angry nerd" contingent here! Because personally, I rarely see the same level of aggro irl (or maybe I've been lucky).

The Sweeper

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I do want to see some reasons though.

constitutionus

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

...she must be so proud.

only when i let her:)

actually to be serious i dont think its rampant mysogyny more a generational thing. this generation of men just arent willing to put up with the crap we get from women anymore. girls are always on about men getting in touch with our emotions well this is it. sorry if its not what you wanted to here but we never promised that. and to be honest alot of its down to the head games girls play. if you were actually honest and up front with guys we'd all get on great, but you cant do that because your too insecure and lapse into either doormat/wall flower mode or raving psychotic "im all that" type

The Sweeper

...want a bigger brush for that statement? Seriously, have you got any specific examples, or are you just going to keep putting up the generalisation wallpaper in the background?

metrovelvet

constitutionus wrote:

the consentual boy on girl thing is actually worse than i thought. if two 15yrs old have sex and the girl doest get pregnant she goes to jail with the boy. but if she does she's off scott free. now call me mad but thats just ****ing nuts

its almost promoting unsafe sex and single motherhood!

Are you ****ing kidding me?

simu

metrovelvet wrote:

Are you ****ing kidding me?

No, afaik, the reason the girl is not considered to be comitting an offense is that there's a possibility she could get pregnant and the minister doesn't want to stigmatise underage mothers. Although, it does stigmatise underage fathers. Odd odd odd.

constitutionus wrote:

if you were actually honest and up front with guys we'd all get on great, but you cant do that because your too insecure and lapse into either doormat/wall flower mode or raving psychotic "im all that" type

Funny - the guys who rant about women on AH mostly sound like the type of person you describe there! With such a negative attitude, it's no wonder you have problems!

honru

constitutionus wrote:

and to be honest alot of its down to the head games girls play. if you were actually honest and up front with guys we'd all get on great, but you cant do that because your too insecure and lapse into either doormat/wall flower mode or raving psychotic "im all that" type

Women are receptive by nature. It's nothing to do with insecurities.

constitutionus

hey i dont have a problem, its not my fault you dont like the answers. its interesting to note girls arent considering the fact they just might be anti male but a man is automatically a mysogynist if he says anything remotely critical about a girl

constitutionus

Minesajackdaniels wrote:

...want a bigger brush for that statement? Seriously, have you got any specific examples, or are you just going to keep putting up the generalisation wallpaper in the background?

why would i use specific examples for a general view? wouldnt that defeat the point of it?

simu

constitutionus wrote:

hey i dont have a problem, its not my fault you dont like the answers. its interesting to note girls arent considering the fact they just might be anti male but a man is automatically a mysogynist if he says anything remotely critical about a girl

Ah but you're not saying it about a girl but rather girls in general. And personally, I just don't see it in real life. Unless it's mostly a teenage thing?

constitutionus

simu wrote:

Ah but you're not saying it about a girl but rather girls in general. And personally, I just don't see it in real life. Unless it's mostly a teenage thing?

cant speak for the teenage crowd , im going on experience of 20-30 somethings. im not surprised you dont see it in real life, your a girl and girls act differently around each than they do with men. and yes girl singular is different than girls en mass because your talking about an individual unique personality instead of the herd mentality you get when the groups involved (this works for men too)

simu

constitutionus wrote:

cant speak for the teenage crowd , im going on experience of 20-30 somethings. im not surprised you dont see it in real life, your a girl and girls act differently around each than they do with men. and yes girl singular is different than girls en mass because your talking about an individual unique personality instead of the herd mentality you get when the groups involved (this works for men too)

Well, tbh, most people I hang around with whether male or female are a bit alternative but are things really so bad for Joe 'n' Jill Average? (If there is such a thing as an average).

Yeah, the girls I know might act differently around guys but not in a muppety way.

constitutionus

simu wrote:

Well, tbh, most people I hang around with whether male or female are a bit alternative but are things really so bad for Joe 'n' Jill Average? (If there is such a thing as an average).

Yeah, the girls I know might act differently around guys but not in a muppety way.

actually i think its getting worse.:( alot of its down to the whole comercial image thing, i really dont envy teenagers these days and ive got 3 nieces who are heading into their teens soon. makes me glad im out of that whole scene and dealing with nice mid 20s women

constitutionus

metrovelvet wrote:

Are you ****ing kidding me?

pat rabitte was on sky news talking about it at 10. and this is just the cursory examination of the bill. technically if you had a 69 with someone and your both under 17 your both guilty of oral rape

metrovelvet

constitutionus wrote:

hey i dont have a problem, its not my fault you dont like the answers. its interesting to note girls arent considering the fact they just might be anti male but a man is automatically a mysogynist if he says anything remotely critical about a girl

No. There is sexism, and then there is the PURE HATRED you read on AH for women.

Minesajacks, I too would love to see the top 5 reasons. Im sure their are hundreds, but the top five would suffice.

Nice way to prevent STDs and teenage pregnacies. Good going government. Five year olds on crack would come up with better legislation.

nesf

Drama. Queen.

fly_agaric

simu wrote:

Because personally, I rarely see the same level of aggro irl (or maybe I've been lucky).

What would assault rates be like if people carried their online willingless to blurt out their crazy ideas and insult complete strangers over to the offline/meat-world?

Doesn't bear thinking about really!

X-SL

AngryAnderson wrote:

Um, it really can be quite easily simplified. Some people are sh1theads and some aren't. It's not gender specific and it's hardly a deep philosophical debate waiting to happen IMO. :eek:

QFT

AngryAnderson

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I'd bet that 9 out of 10 guys on this thread who think Irish girls are vicious/nasty/unapproachable are too afraid to approach women. The problem's not Irish women... IT'S YOU, YOU FREAK.

Karl Hungus

Karl Hungus wrote:

Queue 'Vomiting at your naked body' jokes.

It's "cue"...unless you actually want to queue up jokes...

JC 2K3

Irish people in general just suck these days considering people's lives have become so mainstreamed. Most people on here regularly are male computer nerds(I mean this in the least offensive way possible, I simply mean people who use the PC a lot for things other than Bebo and MSN) who generally wouldn't be following the crowd and would have a few like-minded friends. the only reason that they'd venture outside this group would be if they were looking for a partner and they'd generally encounter stereotypical Irish women, who suck, just as much as stereotypical Irish men. so therefore you're going to get complaints about "Irish women" here.

DOLEMAN

AngryAnderson wrote:

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I'd bet that 9 out of 10 guys on this thread who think Irish girls are vicious/nasty/unapproachable are too afraid to approach women. The problem's not Irish women... IT'S YOU, YOU FREAK.

Come on, why is that always the answer to criticisms of Irish women?

I have absolutely no problem approaching girls and have absolutely no issues with women in general. I just happen to think Irish women are overly aggressive, confusing feminism and independence with acting like an asshole man.

I agree that this place is full of nerds. But I don't see a connection with being shy and being critical.

Mr. CooL ICE

Kernel32 wrote:

Can a man not be a feminism? Can a man not believe that a woman should have equal rights with a man?

What springs to mind is:

Judith: Any Anti-Imperialist group like ours must *reflect* such a
divergence of interests within its power-base.
Reg: Agreed.
(General nodding.)
Francis?
Francis: I think Judith's point of view is valid here, Reg, provided the
Movement never forgets that it is the inalienable right of every
man--
Stan: Or woman.
Francis: Or woman...to rid himself--
Stan: Or herself.
Reg: Or herself. Agreed. Thank you, brother.
Stan: Or sister.
Francis: Thank you, brother. Or sister. Where was I?
Reg: I thought you'd finished.
Francis: Oh, did I? Right.
Reg: Furthermore, it is the birthright of every man ...
Stan: Or woman.
Reg: Why don't you shut up about women, Stan, you're putting us off.
Stan: Women have a perfect right to play a part in our movement, Reg.
Francis: Why are you always on about women, Stan?
Stan: (pause) I want to be one.
Reg: What?
Stan: I want to be a woman. From now on I want you all to call me Loretta.
Reg: What!?
Stan: It's my right as a man.
Judith: Why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
Stan: I want to have babies.

JC 2K3

DOLEMAN wrote:

Come on, why is that always the answer to criticisms of Irish women?

I have absolutely no problem approaching girls and have absolutely no issues with women in general. I just happen to think Irish women are overly aggressive, confusing feminism and independence with acting like an asshole man.

I agree that this place is full of nerds. But I don't see a connection with being shy and being critical.

What I was getting at was that the problem isn't Irish women, the problem is Irish people in general, but the majority on here would be male and probably slightly different to mainstream society, they wouldn't complain about guys because why would they talk to guys if they had like minded friends already?

constitutionus

JC 2K3 wrote:

What I was getting at was that the problem isn't Irish women, the problem is Irish people in general, but the majority on here would be male and probably slightly different to mainstream society, they wouldn't complain about guys because why would they talk to guys if they had like minded friends already?

which would make this a societal issue and i agree there, its a lot more souless and ignoble out theres these days. i'd hate to be growing up in this country now,we may have been piss poor in my day but at least you could trust people to look out for each other and there was a genuine sense of doing the right thing . now nobody gives a damn unless theres money involved and theyre all preoccupied with their image qualifications and status. i mean for gods sake you can get a degree in dog walking now ****ING DOG WALKING:rolleyes: what the hell kind of country are we becoming where someone thinks thats necessary

simu

constitutionus wrote:

i mean for gods sake you can get a degree in dog walking now ****ING DOG WALKING:rolleyes: what the hell kind of country are we becoming where someone thinks thats necessary

Orly? Where?

constitutionus

simu wrote:

Orly? Where?

not exactly sure but was listining to the "a day in the life " section on newstalk when they were interviewing a professional dog walker, apparently you have to do a course in "dog psychology" to get your degree i mean FFS. i honestly couldnt make this up, i presume you could find it in the pod casting section of their website. supossed to be good money in it too:rolleyes: