American's Speak Up

Velvet Vocals

Just thought I'd post this up..... this is an email I got today from my Uncle who lives in America. He is 2nd generation... i.e. his dad was an immigrant and he was born there.....with that in mind I find it interesting that he and many like him believe stuff like this.........


American's Speak Up
Think about this: If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone

---

YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM !!!!

Subject: THIS WAS IN A TAMPA NEWSPAPER

Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

Think about it! All we have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS?

I celebrate Christmas....... ....but because it isn't celebrated by everyone..............we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings. It's not Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. Isn't it amazing how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday? We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended. But it seems that no one has a problem with that. This says it all!
This is an editorial written by an
American citizen, published in a Tampa, FL Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!

IMMIGRANTS,
NOT AMERICANS,
MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we
are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11,
we have experienced a surge
in patriotism by the majority
of Americans. However...... the dust from the attacks had
barely settled when the "politically correct! " crowd began complaining about
the possibility that our patriotism was

offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America.
Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans...... we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.
Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women.......on Christian principles.............founded this nation..... and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home.........because God is part of our culture.


If Stars and Stripes offend you, or
you don't like Uncle Sam, then you
should seriously consider a move
to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have
no desire to change, and we really
don't care how you did things where
you came from.
This is OUR COUNTRY,
our land, and our lifestyle.
Our First Amendment gives every citizen the
right to express his opinion and we
will allow you every opportunity to do so!
But once you are done

complaining....... whining...... and griping....... about our flag.......
our pledge...... our national motto........or our
way of life....I highly encourage you to
take advantage of one other Great American Freedom.......


THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

It is Time for America to Speak up
If you agree -- pass this along;
if you don't agree -- delete it - You are in the WRONG Country!



AMEN

I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get back to the complainers, lets all try,
please!

bonkey

Saint Something wrote:

He is 2nd generation... i.e. his dad was an immigrant and he was born there.....with that in mind I find it interesting that he and many like him believe stuff like this.........

Yeah. I remember seeing an interview with some 1st or 2nd generation Vietnamese immigrants. There were some who had come from Vietnam, spoke halting English, but were dead set against allowing foreigners into the US to steal their jobs because the country was already full or something.

(rant deleted)
...because God is part of our culture
(rant deleted)

To such people I would say: "My Jesus forgives your Jesus".

bonkey

it will also, sooner or later get back to the complainers

Funny...I thought it was one of them who wrote this piece. You'd think he'd know how to send it to himself...

tallus

Pure rhetoric in my opinion.
It may have been founded on christian principles but there seems to be little or no sign of it in American society now.
/quote if you don't agree -- delete it - You are in the WRONG Country!
That smacks of GWB's "you're either with us or against us" statement. Don't people have a right to complain no matter if they are right or wrong.
/quote Think about it! All we have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS?
Aren't his rights protected under the U.S. constitution?
/quote This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans...... we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
Diluting soverignty.. that smacks of KKK/white supremacy.
The U.S. doesn't have it's own language, it's called english for a reason, it originated in England, and just because you spell a few words differently doesn't make it American
that whole email reminds me of a spoiled child not getting it's way
I dont have any problems with Americans, I have some very good friends living there but that email just annoyed the f*ck out of me.

Velvet Vocals

yea, I know exactly what you mean. It's like, they have this amasing country that they get to live in because they themselves immigrated there, but they want to delete that past, they didn't come from anywhere else... they were born there! GET OVER YOUR SELVES!!!!!!!!

This is the reply I sent back to my uncle:

Hey,

I was just wondering what you really think about this email? Did just glace at it and forward it on or do you really agree with everything written here?

I only ask because it seems to me that everyone person living in America outside of the Native Americans is an immigrant in some form or other. Your either descended from someone who went there looking for a better life or you made that journey your self. Surely the culture of America is built on the cultures of many different nations.
I do understand that Political Correctness can get out of hand sometimes, and I really think that someone being offended by others wishing them a Happy Christmas is a bit much,in the same way that no one should be offened by being wished good shabis or any other religious greeting, but if you are lucky enough to live in a country like America maybe there a few prices to pay.... and PC might be one of them!

"This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and out national identity"

I'm sorry but this quote makes no sense! It's not just an idea, it's a fact, like or not America is a multicultural community!

I leave you with this thought, if the native Americans had treated yesterdays immigrants with same mentality being banded in this email, would you be happy to have lived their way of life in order to stay in "your" country?

layke

Go to the UK and see how banks are not allowed to display a picture of a pig anymore because it offends Muslims.

I share the writers centiment, like he/she I have no problem with some one coming to Ireland to live/work however I totally disagree with having to change things to suit them. Such things will only breed racism.

tallus

excellent reply
I got that email a month or so back myself from an american friend I replied in a similar vein I felt bad after it because she's a really nice person but what the hell!
The U.S. has a lot of positive points sometimes it's hard to see them after an email like that. I suppose it's a bit of a flag waver and people do need to have their national identity and self worth as a country enforced after the despicable attacks on The WTC and Pentagon, but there has to be a better way of doing it heh
/endeth the rant

Velvet Vocals

Ok, I'm going to take your point Layke, in the context of us being in a so called "established" country, I.E countries in Europe being much older then America have a much longer history and therefore have strong cultures. By which case it may be harder to accept so many changes being requested by other nationalities coming in.
But if we accept that we live in a democracy... which I'm sure we do... and we therefore accept that we have democratically elected government who with our say so brought us in to the EU and in which case we have agreed that people from other European states are welcome in our county....
If we accept all this, then really we should accommodate them as best we can! I'm not saying bend over backwards for them or be pushed around, but I am saying lets at lest try to be flexible. It's all part of change and movement which can be a good thing!

But when think about the US then this point really isn't valid because they are not a long established country with strong history... their history comes from immigration.

tallus

Was it Thomas Jefferson who said "you can judge any democracy by the way it treats it's minoroties"
? anyone?

Velvet Vocals

tallus wrote:

excellent reply
I got that email a month or so back myself from an american friend I replied in a similar vein I felt bad after it because she's a really nice person but what the hell!
The U.S. has a lot of positive points sometimes it's hard to see them after an email like that. I suppose it's a bit of a flag waver and people do need to have their national identity and self worth as a country enforced after the despicable attacks on The WTC and Pentagon, but there has to be a better way of doing it heh
/endeth the rant

Thanks Talus! I know what you mean about feeling bad, I do to. I do love my family (obviously) and the amount of times I've been over and stayed with my uncle and he's been so good to me!!! But I do think that the people need to challenged when it comes to ideals like this......

Jimboo_Jones

layke wrote:

I share the writers centiment, like he/she I have no problem with some one coming to Ireland to live/work however I totally disagree with having to change things to suit them. Such things will only breed racism.

I guess American's better get use to living in TeePee's

on a more serious note, I think that most of the post is a load of hog wash. Stuff like 'not being able to say merry christmas' I am pretty sure that if you where to walk arround New York in December that you would see plenty of christmas decorations, with the words christmas on them.

tallus wrote:

Was it Thomas Jefferson who said "you can judge any democracy by the way it treats it's minoroties"
? anyone?

Humm, I heard the quote refering to prisioners before, but maybe they where just altering it for their own purposes.

I found this..

Winston Churchill once said 'a civilization could be judged by the way
it treated its prisoners.'

PS. I really REALLY hate them 'link' mails

tallus

Agreed. SaintS
I was there last year myself and loved it. Don't have relatives living there now but I used to have loads, they came back to the 'oul sod after a number of years. They loved living there but alas uncle sam didn't invite them heh

layke

I would disagree, America has one of the strongest (short lived) cultures in the world. You just have to roam around town to hear the American slang used or the music played. I for one listen to Rap music, which is American Black culture.

We use american slang, well I certainly do from time to time.

The point i'm making is, look at the UK. They are already there, certain laws being changed to suit immigrants and the majority people feel a little mistreated with the mentality of "I've lived here all my life, why should I change to suit some foreigners" which I think is a perfectly acceptable attitute to take.

Jimboo, I thought it was Wigwams?

bonkey

Saint Something wrote:

and I really think that someone being offended by others wishing them a Happy Christmas is a bit much,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Christmas thing was mostly modified a long time ago in the US in deference to their Jewish citizens.

Are the Jewish contingencies in the US also being told to sod off by the author?

jc

Jimboo_Jones

layke wrote:

The point i'm making is, look at the UK. They are already there, certain laws being changed to suit immigrants and the majority people feel a little mistreated with the mentality of "I've lived here all my life, why should I change to suit some foreigners" which I think is a perfectly acceptable attitute to take.

Which laws would they be? I have lived in the UK all my life and would like to know how I am being mistreated.

bonkey

Saint Something wrote:

Ok, I'm going to take your point Layke, in the context of us being in a so called "established" country, I.E countries in Europe being much older then America have a much longer history and therefore have strong cultures.

Indeed. Pictures of pigs on cash dispensers can be traced back hundreds of years. Its as much a part of our Irishness as Nike runners (from the Waterford O'Nike's) and McDonalds (look at the surname..need I say more) and has been an important part of our culture for centuries.

layke wrote:

I totally disagree with having to change things to suit them. Such things will only breed racism.

I agree. When Ireland was only for the Irish (and the English) we could freely refer to people of colour as n*****s because they weren't here to hear us.

Now that some of them have been allowed into our country, we have to actually take their feelings into consideration and be more aware of what names we call them.

Clearly, this can only give rise to racism. If they don't like being called n******s, they should go home, or to some other nation, and stop expecting us to change our ways in our country.

Saint Something wrote:

I'm not saying bend over backwards for them or be pushed around, but I am saying lets at lest try to be flexible. It's all part of change and movement which can be a good thing!

No, damn you. No, I say. That bleeding heartism will turn us all into liberals. They come here, they make the allowances. Thats how it works.

They have flexibility of airlines and flight destinations, and that should be more than enough for them.

BTW, when I go to their nations on holidays etc. it shoudl be clear that because I don't intend to actually move there, my culture etc. must be accepted by them in their land.

jc

Velvet Vocals

bonkey wrote:

Indeed. Pictures of pigs on cash dispensers can be traced back hundreds of years. Its as much a part of our Irishness as Nike runners (from the Waterford O'Nike's) and McDonalds (look at the surname..need I say more) and has been an important part of our culture for centuries.


I agree. When Ireland was only for the Irish (and the English) we could freely refer to people of colour as n*****s because they weren't here to hear us.

Now that some of them have been allowed into our country, we have to actually take their feelings into consideration and be more aware of what names we call them.

Clearly, this can only give rise to racism. If they don't like being called n******s, they should go home, or to some other nation, and stop expecting us to change our ways in our country.


No, damn you. No, I say. That bleeding heartism will turn us all into liberals. They come here, they make the allowances. Thats how it works.

They have flexibility of airlines and flight destinations, and that should be more than enough for them.

BTW, when I go to their nations on holidays etc. it shoudl be clear that because I don't intend to actually move there, my culture etc. must be accepted by them in their land.

jc

Best post I've read all day!

walshb

I suppose the thing about the US is that nobody is really a true American because as was already said, the US was founded by many different explorers and countries. However, the UK would have most definitely shaped and idealised most of the US as regards laws and religion and Culture. I agree that it's those arriving in the US who should be trying to learn English and who should accept the US traditions and values.

Jimboo_Jones

re the pig in banks

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1494636.htm

appears it was all 'hogwash' , but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of our anger towards others!

There is absolutely no fact in the story. We simply had a UK wide savings marketing campaign, which included pictures of piggy banks, running until the end of September.

Piggy banks have been and will continue to be used as a promotional item by NatWest.

— Email from Caroline Harris, Media Relations, NatWest, to Media Watch, 28 October 2005

nice post jc BTW

metrovelvet

I am one of those, so I feel I can comment on this with some experience of it.

In fact it makes sense that a 2nd generation would have those feelings as it is usually the children to have to go between two cultures,the one at home and the one outside, many of whom [like young Greek women for example who really have it touch in patriarchal families] would be rather happy to see the habits of the old country left behind.

I ask really - if you love your habits so much why did you leave?

Second generations often have to deal with parents who 1. refuse to learn English so as children have to do EVERYTHING for their parents 2. Put up with the traditions of a country they have never been to despite being American, ie arranged marriage. 3. Deal with parents who REFUSE to see that their children are american and constantly insult their identity.

So yes, I would also agree with the sentiment in that post. I know how hard immigration is and the pains of homesickness, but come on.

tallus

fair Point metrovelvet, but in the same token I have a lot of friends stateside who wear their heritage like a badge so it's a double edged sword i.m.o.
Admittedly most of them are of Irish stock so there was no language barrier, but they do look very favourable upon their Irish heritage, it's a thing of pride for them.

ISAW

metrovelvet wrote:

I ask really - if you love your habits so much why did you leave?

Maybe because they were in the habit of going to the Mosque daily and then found out that the 70 or so Mosques in their twon had been reduced to rubble by occupying troops?

Second generations often have to deal with parents who 1. refuse to learn English so as children have to do EVERYTHING for their parents 2. Put up with the traditions of a country they have never been to despite being American, ie arranged marriage. 3. Deal with parents who REFUSE to see that their children are american and constantly insult their identity.

we have a similar thing in Ireland. It is called Fermanagh

So yes, I would also agree with the sentiment in that post. I know how hard immigration is and the pains of homesickness, but come on.

I believe that the whole origin of this "happy Christmas" is not politically correct is dubious. Where did it happen that people were told thewy couldn't say it? What organisation court or otherwise suggested this?

Velvet Vocals

metrovelvet wrote:

[like young Greek women for example who really have it tough in patriarchal families]

Been watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding again?:rolleyes:

ChityWest

ISAW wrote:

I believe that the whole origin of this "happy Christmas" is not politically correct is dubious. Where did it happen that people were told thewy couldn't say it? What organisation court or otherwise suggested this?

The Anti-Defamation League ( a very powerful pro-israel lobbying/pressure group) in the united states for one -

"Every December, public school students, parents, teachers and administrators face the difficult task of acknowledging the various religious and secular holiday traditions celebrated during that time of year. This pamphlet is designed to inform members of the public school community about the current state of the law regarding constitutionally permissible religious holiday observance in the public schools. "



http://www.adl.org/religious_freedom/resource_kit/december_holiday_guidelines.asp

As you can see from this long winded christian bashing article 'the december dilemna' from their own website.

Velvet Vocals

tallus wrote:

fair Point metrovelvet, but in the same token I have a lot of friends stateside who wear their heritage like a badge so it's a double edged sword i.m.o.
Admittedly most of them are of Irish stock so there was no language barrier, but they do look very favourable upon their Irish heritage, it's a thing of pride for them.

The same uncle that sent me the mail is one of those people, very proud of being Irish, when I come over I'm coming from "The Old Country" and he walks around with his Irish shirts on, drinks in all the Irish bars, everyone who knows him knows that he's "Irish" He has an Irish flag on his front door for fe*k sake! He's been over here and traced the family tree and all that stuff.....
I'm possibly being a bit hard on him because I have to receive his reply so I'm still not sure where is true feelings on this are.
But there are so many people in the US that are just like him, proud of where the come from, and so they should be! Why not! They came from somewhere that means something to them, they have a right to share how they feel about that with the people around them. Who gave them that right? The US constitution gave them that right, written by people who emigrated to The America's. Who's to say that it's ok for Peter but it's not ok for Paul?

bonkey

metrovelvet wrote:

I ask really - if you love your habits so much why did you leave?

Dead right.

If I was, for example, an Afghan who loved benig Muslim, making world-renowned rugs and Afghan customs, I can't think of a single reason why I'd possibly want to leave Afghanistan.

metrovelvet

tallus wrote:

fair Point metrovelvet, but in the same token I have a lot of friends stateside who wear their heritage like a badge so it's a double edged sword i.m.o.
Admittedly most of them are of Irish stock so there was no language barrier, but they do look very favourable upon their Irish heritage, it's a thing of pride for them.

tallus - just to point out that when you have immigrant parents its quite a different experience from having a "heritage" or of stock. In terms of practicalities. When your parents have the same language as the emigrant nation then that does make a huge difference in terms of the responsibilities laid on the kids. I think we who have anglophone parents have it easier in that regard.

This is not to say that second generations [of any immigrant group] are not proud of where their parents come from, its just that they have a closer view to what was left behind and are the pivot where adaptation occurs. You can be proud of your heritage, but it is in the PAST where it belongs.

I never saw MY Big Fat Greek Wedding.

tallus

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

Humm, I heard the quote refering to prisioners before, but maybe they where just altering it for their own purposes.

I found this..

Winston Churchill once said 'a civilization could be judged by the way
it treated its prisoners.'
Ok this is off topic but there was a standing joke among British soldiers during WWII Q: "what's the quietest place on earth?"
A: "an australian P.O.W. camp"
sorry for going off topic

tallus

metrovelvet wrote:

tallus - just to point out that when you have immigrant parents its quite a different experience from having a "heritage" or of stock. In terms of practicalities. When your parents have the same language as the emigrant nation then that does make a huge difference in terms of the responsibilities laid on the kids. I think we who have anglophone parents have it easier in that regard.

This is not to say that second generations [of any immigrant group] are not proud of where their parents come from, its just that they have a closer view to what was left behind and are the pivot where adaptation occurs. You can be proud of your heritage, but it is in the PAST where it belongs.

I never saw MY Big Fat Greek Wedding.

I never saw MY Big Fat Greek Wedding either

bonkey

metrovelvet wrote:

its just that they have a closer view to what was left behind and are the pivot where adaptation occurs.

Not true. They are where you think the pivot should be. The entire problem stems from the reality that there is no such clean pivot. Some migrants blend into their new society. Some don't.

It doesn't break down on simple cultural stereotypes.

Of course, it hasn't always been this way. Look at your history books concerning immigration into the US in (say) the 18th and 19th centries. Marvel at the open-arms welcome the Chinese received in the US when they arrived and worked on projects such as railroad-building. Look how the Irish were feted like non-monarchial kings when they came in their droves. In all cases, large numbers of a culture came to the US, left their heritage on the boat, and within a single generation ceased to exist as an identifiable foreign culture.

This proper approach to immigration clearly worked, and this is why we need to return to this state of affairs as soon as possible.

You can be proud of your heritage, but it is in the PAST where it belongs.

You're not suggesting that Irish people living in Ireland leave their heritage in the past, where it belongs, are you?

Don't you really mean Immigrant heritage should be left in the past where you think it belongs?

jc

DamoKen

ISAW wrote:

I believe that the whole origin of this "happy Christmas" is not politically correct is dubious. Where did it happen that people were told thewy couldn't say it? What organisation court or otherwise suggested this?

First came across this a few years back while working in an American company in Germany. After a month of complaints from a very small number of American employees regarding the office Christmas Party which they insisted should be called the Holiday Party, management which was German finally caved and retitled it. Incidentally the majority of American employees in the company were disgusted by this OTT PCness and funnily enough the few that did complain were all of Christian origin. Funny old world eh?

On a side note, the mention of the Piggy Bank bullsh*t reminded me of another incident reported a few years back

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/16/nbuns16.xml

Daily Telegraph wrote:

Schools across Britain have been ordered by local authorities to abandon the ancient tradition of serving hot cross buns at Easter so as not to offend children of non-Christian faiths.

Some councils are refusing to hand out the traditional treats because they fear that the symbol of the cross will spark complaints from Jewish, Hindu and Muslim pupils or their families.

......

The spokesman added: "We are moving away from a religious theme for Easter and will not be doing hot cross buns. We can't risk a similar outcry over Easter like the kind we had on Pancake Day. We will probably be serving naan breads instead."

.......

Despite this ruling, the council confirmed that it will continue to organise special menus to celebrate events as diverse as the Chinese New Year, Italian National Day and Russian Independence Day.

.......

Ann Widdecombe, the Conservative MP and former shadow home secretary who is a Roman Catholic convert, described the ban as "appalling and absurd". "These people are silly asses," she said.

"It would appear that we should know about everyone else's culture apart from our Christian tradition. It seems that anything that comes from an ethnic minority is fine, while anything Christian is wrong.

It would seem that this feeling is not in some ways restricted to America alone, and although I wouldn't agree with most of the sentiments in the original article, I can understand to a point why people albeit in the case of the States somewhat hypocritically, feel this way.

metrovelvet

bonkey wrote:

Of course, it hasn't always been this way. Look at your history books concerning immigration into the US in (say) the 18th and 19th centries. Marvel at the open-arms welcome the Chinese received in the US when they arrived and worked on projects such as railroad-building. Look how the Irish were feted like non-monarchial kings when they came in their droves. In all cases, large numbers of a culture came to the US, left their heritage on the boat, and within a single generation ceased to exist as an identifiable foreign culture.

Are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you are.

bonkey wrote:

You're not suggesting that Irish people living in Ireland leave their heritage in the past, where it belongs, are you?

No of course not. Its up to them what they want to do with it. It's a different country with different protocols and a different history. But as the shape of Irish identity changes [with increasing immigration], so will the heritage of the nation and this will become an increasingly complex question.

What Im saying is that in the US, which has a legacy inherited from pioneers, if you want to move forward and keep on moving there are things you have to let go of in order to increase mobility.

3rd of 4th generation Americans dont have to do half the work that 2nd generations do, in terms of negotiating for their parents. For example, they most likely have parents who speak English, they have parents who have gone through the school system so they know how it works, they know how to fill out tax forms, etc etc and dont need to rely on their kids to do it. So I mean pivot in very very practical way.

johnthesavage

The word "patriotism" could be replaced with "xenophobia" in that email, without altering the meaning.

Perhaps the author would also like a line of the poem on the plaque on the statue of liberty altered to read "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses - so long as they speak english and don't look too foreign"

DamoKen

bonkey wrote:

Not true. They are where you think the pivot should be. The entire problem stems from the reality that there is no such clean pivot. Some migrants blend into their new society. Some don't.

It doesn't break down on simple cultural stereotypes.

Of course, it hasn't always been this way. Look at your history books concerning immigration into the US in (say) the 18th and 19th centries. Marvel at the open-arms welcome the Chinese received in the US when they arrived and worked on projects such as railroad-building. Look how the Irish were feted like non-monarchial kings when they came in their droves.

forgot to ask in my last post, what history books have you read? first I've ever heard of it, non-monarchical kings? hmmm.

bonkey wrote:

In all cases, large numbers of a culture came to the US, left their heritage on the boat, and within a single generation ceased to exist as an identifiable foreign culture.

Chinatown? Little Italy? Queens?..., doesn't really sound like leaving your heritage on the boat? Personally I've always thought the exact opposite, it's the mishmash of different cultures and heritages that can make America such an interesting place, you don't acheive this by forgetting your culture, and yes, this is one of the points the original article fails to grasp. It's this very thing that has made America what it is.

Velvet Vocals

bonkey wrote:

Don't you really mean Immigrant heritage should be left in the past where you think it belongs?

jc

Exactly!!! that's totally the vibe I'm getting from metrovelvet. Sorry Meto, please don't take this as an insult or anything because I really don't mean it that way!!! It's just that from what you have said in your last few posts it seems like you are speaking primarily about your self and your own situation, which is not to say that is wrong, but what we are discussing here is wider then just personal experiences.

I'm sure that there are huge numbers of people that have had the kind of experience that you describe, their parents don't want to let go of "the old country" and they are trying to integrate and there are complications... so they immerse them selves in "American Culture" but that in no way means that the past should be pushed out... that is why those peoples parents are so desperately trying to hold on to the old ways, because without them they would be forgotten, and how sad would that be!!!!


By the way... you should watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding.... it's pretty funny!:)

Velvet Vocals

johnthesavage wrote:

Perhaps the author would also like a line of the poem on the plaque on the statue of liberty altered to read "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses - so long as they speak english and don't look too foreign"

Ayla

What an interesting forum...

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American. I was born there, and grew up there, as did my parents, their parents and (for the most part) their parents before them.

And, because of my husband (who was born and raised here), I moved to Ireland in January 2005. So I understand immigration (from the point of the Americans) and emmigration (from the point of the Irish).

I'm always interested to hear what the world thinks of Americans, b/c Yanks have a (well-documented) tendency to forget about the rest of the world. It's nothing deliberate or done with any ill-intent, but it's easy to forget that anything happens outside of our *really* big island. So, now living in Ireland, it's interesting to gain a different perspective on the world that I grew up in.

I find some of your points interesting, some infuriating, and some that have made me think. I believe that everyone has a right to live exactly how they choose, regardless of their cultural, religious or personal beliefs. I think there's a lot to be gained by learning about others and what makes them tick.

And yes, America is, by its very history, a nation based on immigration and cultural blending. I would like to think that this is for the good of all who choose and agree to participate in that system, but for it to work everyone has to get along. They don't have to agree on everything, they don't have to be best friends, but they do have to respect the fact that everyone has their own ideas about life. There are many places in the US where this works well and everyone manages to co-exist.

It's not perfect, and there's a lot that can be learned to make it better, but I can't think of any nation on earth that's figured it out completely. I challenge all of you to provide one example of a perfect, utopian, society where everyone gets along and respects everyone's differences. As unfortunate as it is, I think this is the one basic human characteristic that we all share...the struggle to prove oneself better (or more right) than our neighbor.

God help all of us if you think Ireland's beyond this. The dust of "The Struggles" are barely settling, and now all we hear about is emmigration into Ireland and how "the natives" hate the fact that folks are moving in from Africa, the EU and elsewhere. They're already getting their toes stomped on because the Polish are willing to work in jobs that the newly wealthy Irish are too good for, and the African people, here to escape hardship are trying to sink into local culture.

It's history repeating itself. In a generation or two, some nation will be having this same discussion about how the Irish are so "intolerant" of immigrants.

tallus

Ayla wrote:

What an interesting forum.
It's history repeating itself. In a generation or two, some nation will be having this same discussion about how the Irish are so "intolerant" of immigrants.

Are you psychic Ayla? or do you know something that I dont about what's going to happen In Ireland in two generations?

Velvet Vocals

Ayla wrote:

What an interesting forum...

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American. I was born there, and grew up there, as did my parents, their parents and (for the most part) their parents before them.

Are you a native American?

Ayla wrote:

I'm always interested to hear what the world thinks of Americans, b/c Yanks have a (well-documented) tendency to forget about the rest of the world.

Unless of course they are trying to "Bring democracy" somewhere

Ayla wrote:

I challenge all of you to provide one example of a perfect, utopian, society where everyone gets along and respects everyone's differences. As unfortunate as it is, I think this is the one basic human characteristic that we all share...the struggle to prove oneself better (or more right) than our neighbour.

This isn't about trying to find utopia, or even about saying that Ireland/the Irish people are better at intergrating or blending as you put it, then the Americans (we are quite obviously not). It is about responding to an email written by an American and distributed by many Americans to other Americans expressing views that I for one consider wrong and harmful

Ayla wrote:

God help all of us if you think Ireland's beyond this. The dust of "The Struggles" are barely settling, and now all we hear about is emmigration into Ireland and how "the natives" hate the fact that folks are moving in from Africa, the EU and elsewhere. They're already getting their toes stomped on because the Polish are willing to work in jobs that the newly wealthy Irish are too good for, and the African people, here to escape hardship are trying to sink into local culture.

It's history repeating itself. In a generation or two, some nation will be having this same discussion about how the Irish are so "intolerant" of immigrants.

Yes and hopefully by opening a discussion like this and others we will be able to learn from others mistakes and realise that we should not behave in the same way.

Ayla

Well, I'll answer this way...

America was founded with the motto "Land of the Free"

Ireland has a reputation for being a very welcoming, friendly nation, but can anyone deny that radical change has happened in the last generation? Not saying that the Irish are any less wonderful than they've always been, but change brings about new fears, new phobias and new problems (along with all of the good as well).

So, if America's changed "so radically" from its initial open-arm policies, what makes the Irish think they're immune?

tallus

Ayla wrote:

Well, I'll answer this way...

America was founded with the motto "Land of the Free"

Ireland has a reputation for being a very welcoming, friendly nation, but can anyone deny that radical change has happened in the last generation? Not saying that the Irish are any less wonderful than they've always been, but change brings about new fears, new phobias and new problems (along with all of the good as well).

So, if America's changed "so radically" from its initial open-arm policies, what makes the Irish think they're immune?

We never claimed to be immune, the OP was about an email written by an american so that's what we were focusing on.

J.R.HARTLEY

bonkey wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Christmas thing was mostly modified a long time ago in the US in deference to their Jewish citizens.

Are the Jewish contingencies in the US also being told to sod off by the author?

jc

thats a very good point as it was the jewish controlled media who started "happy holidays" etc

on an interetsing side note, nearly all the classic christmas songs, including white christmas were written by jewish people,

Ayla

Saint Something...

Good comments. I am not technically Native American, but neither are about 95% of Americans. I have European roots, from at least Czech, Germany, France, (and of course) Ireland.

However, I have had a lot of travels, both across the States and globally. I agree with you that we all have a lot to learn, and we can save ourselves a lot of pain by learning from other's mistakes.

I also agree with you that recently Americans have a terrible habit of trying to "spread American" across the world. Don't get me started...I didn't vote for the monkey.

But that brings me to my last point about your comments. There is (as we all know) a lot of variety in the thinking and believing of Americans. There are (to my dismay) a number of people who did vote for that monkey, and would do it again. There are a number of Americans (as there are a number of people across the world) who share a view that diversity and "mixing" is threatening and should be avoided.

But, I wouldn't be true to my own beliefs if I discredited these people. I have said before and I will say again that everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I can't stop them and I can't think less of them because their beliefs don't line up with mine. That makes me one of them. I choose to just disagree with them, and as long as it's peaceful, just let them be.

Ayla

Bonkey...

One more thing. Can you please confirm that you were being completely sarcastic by your description of how open-armed America was back in the (say) 18th and 19th century? If you honestly believe that, I'd be interested to hear where you got your history lessons from.

It wasn't just the Africans to be enslaved in early-day America. Like it or not, the Asian people (hell, even the Irish) worked in slave-like conditions as well. They took whatever job they could find, for that all-eternal quest to better their lives. Some made it, and their modern-day descendants have different reactions to that memory.

metrovelvet

Saint Something wrote:

Exactly!!! that's totally the vibe I'm getting from metrovelvet. Sorry Meto, please don't take this as an insult or anything because I really don't mean it that way!!! It's just that from what you have said in your last few posts it seems like you are speaking primarily about your self and your own situation, which is not to say that is wrong, but what we are discussing here is wider then just personal experiences.

I'm sure that there are huge numbers of people that have had the kind of experience that you describe, their parents don't want to let go of "the old country" and they are trying to integrate and there are complications... so they immerse them selves in "American Culture" but that in no way means that the past should be pushed out... that is why those peoples parents are so desperately trying to hold on to the old ways, because without them they would be forgotten, and how sad would that be!!!!


By the way... you should watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding.... it's pretty funny!:)

No, not at all. I said it should remain in the past, that doesnt mean it should be forgotten about. But we cant walk around in corsets when the times call for tank tops now can we? We build onto the past, we dont ossify in it.

I grew up among and with immigrants children who came from all over the world and this was a common experience among all of us, mediating between the culture of our families and the culture that we ourselves were a part of.

Very often it is the very ethos of a particular community which engenders their successes, the hard work of chinese-america or the education ethic within jewish communities. The point is,there are some things you can keep and there are somethings you have to let go of if you want to move forward. And yes, it is sad. Its loss. Immigration is painful and hard often. Remember that next time you say goodbye to someone, or you meet someone who's coming home for Christmas.

And no of course I would not tell Irish people to forget about their heritage while living in Ireland. It is up to them to decide the vision for their nation. But, with increasing immigration and the changing face of Irish identity, this will become an increasingly complex question.

Having lived abroad myself, having parents who immigrated, I am attuned to the losses that come with this. Its never ever easy and I can empathise with the longing to remain close to where your roots are. But you cant move and raise your children somewhere and not expect to lose some of your traditions. Its an inevitabilty.

To me this statement is utter BS. It is also quite typical of the time in which I grew up, so despite having been born and raised in the US, I would have often been perceived as Irish and not really American. Thankfully I had my parents Irish family to remind me how I'm not Irish.

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American. I was born there, and grew up there, as did my parents, their parents and (for the most part) their parents before them.

You've got to be kidding me. Are you lips red, your hair platinum, and your eyes blue?

Oh and I also believe Ayla that there were Irish slaves brought to the Carribbean [but I think that was the British Carribbean]. That rap artist Rihanna I think is of that descent.

johnthesavage

Ayla wrote:

....what makes the Irish think they're immune?

We aren't immune. It's foolish to point the finger at the US or any other country and pretend that we are somehow different. Unfortunately it is human nature to distrust or fear those who are different from us, all the more so if they speak a different language and have different colour skin.
The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.

tallus

johnthesavage wrote:

Unfortunately it is human nature to distrust or fear those who are different from us, all the more so if they speak a different language and have different colour skin.
Semantics I know.... but I wouldn't consider it to be human nature, I think it's more likely to be a learned thing.

johnthesavage wrote:

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.

I'm just wondering where that comment is coming from.

Velvet Vocals

Well, I'll answer this way...

America was founded with the motto "Land of the Free"

Ireland has a reputation for being a very welcoming, friendly nation, but can anyone deny that radical change has happened in the last generation? Not saying that the Irish are any less wonderful than they've always been, but change brings about new fears, new phobias and new problems (along with all of the good as well).

So, if America's changed "so radically" from its initial open-arm policies, what makes the Irish think they're immune?

Ayla your not answering anything here that is related to OP! Actually, no one is really asking anything here....... I think that you might feel like it's Americans on trial here, and that's not the case.
I see where your going with this tack of Irish are just as bad, there's plenty of unrest here since all the immigration has started and sure your just as bad as us...... your doing a good job of making it sound nicer then that with all the " I just love everyone and want them them all to get along, I just respect everyone's opinions blah, blah, blah!" but sometimes and only sometimes, you cant just respect everyone's opinions... you can respect that they are entitled to have an opinion that is different to the one that you have, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't challenge someone when they are doing or saying something that you disagree with..... otherwise... what the fo is the point.
What I'm trying to say Ayla and I'm possibly sound bitchie but I don't mean to be, is that sometimes you have to get off the fence! regardless of what others might think about you!

Velvet Vocals

johnthesavage wrote:

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.

Did you just say.... melting pot..............................:eek: Well....... there it is folks!

bonkey

Whoosh....

Ayla wrote:

Bonkey...

One more thing. Can you please confirm that you were being completely sarcastic by your description of how open-armed America was back in the (say) 18th and 19th century? If you honestly believe that, I'd be interested to hear where you got your history lessons from.

Yes. I was being sarcastic.

Sand

Are you a native American?

Are you native Irish? Did your family *always* live here or did you roll in here with the celts, scandinavians, normans, english, scots (who were Irish emigrants to begin with), and whoever else taking our jobs and women? If you are descended from immigrants do you still consider yourself to be an immigrant or do you consider yourself to be native to Ireland? At some point "native" Irish was re-defined, much as it will be as the latest wave of immigration takes root here. At some point around the 1900s, the old native americans were pretty much completely brushed aside by the new native americans and native american simply became a politically correct label for indian tribes that survived.

And after all, the indians immigrated from somewhere else as well at some point.

" I just love everyone and want them them all to get along, I just respect everyone's opinions blah, blah, blah!" but sometimes and only sometimes, you cant just respect everyone's opinions... you can respect that they are entitled to have an opinion that is different to the one that you have, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't challenge someone when they are doing or saying something that you disagree with..... otherwise... what the fo is the point.

Maybe your Uncle is operating from a similar principle? He loves all immigrants and is happy to see them arrive, but he just disagrees that they shouldnt integrate on a basic level with the US - i.e. learn the language, treat the US flag as their flag (word of advice to the recent US immigrant lobby - do not fly mexican/Irish/Whatever flags at your rally - fly the flags of the country youre trying to convince to accept you as citizens) and treat the US as their country. Which is reasonable enough. I think Irish people would expect the same from immigrants to this country.

Of course the email also slips in an attack on Political Correctness in the form of the happy holidays and In God We Trust stuff - happy holidays is cringe inducing, but it appears to be unrelated to immigration. The In God We Trust thing....maybe the email writer is simply confused why a national motto has to be adjusted, but again I think its unrelated to immigration as most immigrants would probably be from more religious backgrounds. I think the mail simply picks those two issues and tries to blame immigrants for them when theyre more to do with secular, PC political instincts within the US itself.

The email writer is deluded though if they think they can take a snapshot of US culture, brand it the Official US Culture and then refuse to allow any deviation from cultural norms of 2006 ( or more likely 1956 given thats when the In God We Trust was adopted, though the phrase is also part of the anthem apparently). Culture in any country is fluid and reacting to events and ideas all the time. Look at St. Pats day - were the inhabitants of New York celebrating a Romano-British missionary to Ireland before the Irish moved practically en-masse to New York? Its part of US culture now though, and the sky has yet to fall down. As immigration continues, it will always lead to new communities, new ideas, new celebrations. In 2106 the US culture will be as different from 2006 as 2006 is from 1906, nothing will change that (i.e. spending fantastical sums of money on Gaelic promotion/guilt tripping hasnt resulted in a Gaelic speaking Ireland).

I think the US has a better chance of integrating new immigrants because its identity is based around flag, constitution and institutions like the army. Irish identity is based around GAA, hating the brits (people celebrating France beating England even though it made it harder for Ireland to win the 6 nations....priorities ffs), and supporting a dead language. A vietnamese person will be more likely to learn english, support the US constitution etc. etc than he will to start supporting a county he cant find on the map, summon the appropriate level of latent bitterness against the brits or give a damn about Gaelic when hes having a hard enough time learning English.