SE 1/2 hand

myflipflops

This is a hand i played in the SE 1/2 cashe game last night. I think i played it quite well but i was getting some funny looks from other players. Any opinions?

My stack was €300 ish
Reads:
Villian 1: calling station (stack €70)
Villian 2: hasn't done much, seems solid (€80)
Villian 3: cardrack for the last hour, has played aggessively post flop (€500)

I get KsJs in early/mid pos and raise to €7. get the standard 6 or so callers. flop comes 9 7 2 with 2 spades. i bet €30, villian 1 calls, villian 2 pushes all in (€70). villian 3 dwells up and calls reluctantly. i think for a second and decide to push. basically i know villian 2 has me beat but he hasnt enough to push me off my draw. villian 1 probably has Queen high. im happy to take on these 2 short stacks with my draw but i don't want to call a bet on the turn. because of this and the fact that villian 3 looked very weak, i pushed all in. villian 1 called (rude not to) and then villian 3 dwelled up and called. not really what i wanted. im now risking my stack with a draw.
Long story short, Qs hit the turn and a blank on the river and i took the lot. Villian 2 had 22 for a set and Villian 3 had A9 off (TPTK). Villian 1 didnt show.

Any thoughts on my decision to push? i was basically attemting to isolate the 2 short stacks.

RoundTower

Do you think villain 3 is likely to have a very weak hand, but will auto bet on the turn if you check? This doesn't make much sense but it's possible -- if you had a set I hope you would call here and check the turn against this guy?

I think your play is fine if you think Villain 3 can lay down a hand, if he does only have A9 or worse you're in very good shape anyway.

El Stuntman

never do this against a Chinese guy with a shaved head

otherwise, wp

ianmc38

Played it fine.

Were you wearing a UCD hoody?

Hectorjelly

Why bother trying to isolate? You now are going to have to show a hand down to win, so your going to have to hit an out. Trying to isolate only makes sense if you can win unimproved or to clean up your outs, which neither of which are applicable in this case. You want people in the hand when you have a draw in this situation, as if they fold the amount you can win is less.

RoundTower

There's a chance a K or a J is good, so it's worth it in order to push villain off JT or K9 IMO.

edit: oops obviously JT isn't hurting you, but the same logic applies.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

There's a chance a K or a J is good, so it's worth it in order to push villain off JT or K9 IMO.

edit: oops obviously JT isn't hurting you, but the same logic applies.

whilst that is a benefit I think its rather a small one, and a call is better.

Wallko

alrite pad, yeah think you played it fine, agree with hj of course that there is no point trying to isolate as you want a few callers with your draw, even being up against a set you had enough cards to hit to make this a call

myflipflops

ianmc38 wrote:

Were you wearing a UCD hoody?

yep, thats me. loving your 'buddha' posts btw. i'm well acccustomed to his great play and even better manners.


the reason i raises to isolate was because i felt he would bet the turn if i flat called. he had been bettin reasonably aggressively. the last thing i wanted was to have to call a €150 bet after i turn if i missed.

after the hand, someone made a comment that the A9 was "a million miles ahead" of me. i thought it was quite funny.


PS Wallko, i presume thats u walkin? ur a fish!

ianmc38

HJ happens if we call here, a blank comes on the turn and someone bets the pot?

fuzzbox

Ian: you fold

Wallko

Yup, the one and only!

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

Ian: you fold

yeppo

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

Ian: you fold

This is the other reason I like to push on the flop, it is too easy for us to be run off the hand on the turn otherwise. While if a spade or a K hits on the turn, villain may expect that someone (not necessarily OP) has outdrawn him, and will fold his weak hand.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

This is the other reason I like to push on the flop, it is too easy for us to be run off the hand on the turn otherwise. While if a spade or a K hits on the turn, villain may expect that someone (not necessarily OP) has outdrawn him, and will fold his weak hand.

if he thinks we are on a draw he will call our all in on the flop anyway

RoundTower

That's OK too, we're in good shape in the side pot if we do get called on the flop.

But "if he thinks we're on a draw he'll call us on the flop" is misleading. If we call he might put us on a draw because we call, if we push on the flop he has no reason to assume we are on a draw. If we call and push €220 into a dry side pot when the flush hits the turn this will confirm it. Being OOP doesn't help us.

Furthermore if he is smart (you can't rule it out) he isn't "putting us on a draw", he should be putting us on a range of hands. From his point of view we have either a draw or a better hand than his: on the flop he calls because he can beat some of our hands; once the draw hits he isn't beating anything.

myflipflops

Hectorjelly wrote:

if he thinks we are on a draw he will call our all in on the flop anyway

this hand (like most hands) balanced on my view of my opponent (villian 3). the fact is, i judged him as the kind of player that wouldnt think to put me on a hand, it's simply whether he liked his own hand and the size of the bet. his call with TPTK proved this, i thought he'd lay it down. i figured if he called i was drawing wide though. i will argue that my push is the optimum way to play this hand. i can certainly see ur point though hectorjelly.

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

This is the other reason I like to push on the flop, it is too easy for us to be run off the hand on the turn otherwise. While if a spade or a K hits on the turn, villain may expect that someone (not necessarily OP) has outdrawn him, and will fold his weak hand.

RT: we will have to showdown the hand regardless, so our primary goal is to defeat the all-in players. If we generate a sidepot, we are not likely to be a favourite in it (although we are probably only a small dog). We have immediate odds to call here, getting like 7:1 or something. If we shove and villain 3 folds, then we havent really gained anything, because at least one of the other two guys is bound to have a made hand. If we shove, and he calls, then we are prolly flipping with him in the side pot.

If the turn blanks, then villain would have to make a substantial bet into a protected pot on the turn, in order to run you off the hand. If he does that and you have missed, then you can safely fold, knowing that you are beat (and dont have odds to call)

If the turn blanks, and he bets smallish, then you can call (having up to 15 outs).

Seeing the river is not all its cracked up to be.

ianmc38

Well i don't think we'll get paid if we hit on the turn and we won't see a cheap river either. thats why i like the push here.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Well i don't think we'll get paid if we hit on the turn and we won't see a cheap river either. thats why i like the push here.

Ian: we dont need to get paid to show a profit, we have more than adequate pot odds to see the next card.

This is the wrong spot to "isolate", and creating a sidepot is of no real benefit to you.

ianmc38

I understand what you're saying, but i think everyone will check-fold if we hit our flush on the turn. If we put them in now people will call with top pair. Scare card on the turn we won't get anything and we could face a pot-size bet to see the river.

In the s/e people will call this push with top or middle pair, so essentially it's not really isolating and it's the one of the few ways we'll get paid if we do hit our flush.

fuzzbox

Ian: We dont gain anything by doing this, but rather we LOSE our stack to middle pair, if we miss our gamble. Why gamble further, when we are clearly behind at least one (if not both) of the short stacks. We have nothing to gain by creating a sidepot that we are 50/50 in.

And if they will call with middle pair here, they might call when a flush card hits ... how can this not be true?

Finally - there is only one person left, with the ability to pay us off, as the other 2 are already all-in. And it doesnt matter if he folds to a turn bet (when we hit), as we will still have made a profit.

ianmc38

I hear ya.

pok3rplaya

Don't raise KJs in EP in a game full of calling stations. Or most other games actually.

Unless this is really short-handed?

fuzzbox

KJs is a fine hand to raise in a table full of calling stations.

Hectorjelly

pok3rplaya wrote:

Don't raise KJs in EP in a game full of calling stations. Or most other games actually.

Unless this is really short-handed?

you dont really mean this do you?

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

RT: we will have to showdown the hand regardless, so our primary goal is to defeat the all-in players. If we generate a sidepot, we are not likely to be a favourite in it (although we are probably only a small dog). We have immediate odds to call here, getting like 7:1 or something. If we shove and villain 3 folds, then we havent really gained anything, because at least one of the other two guys is bound to have a made hand. If we shove, and he calls, then we are prolly flipping with him in the side pot.

If the turn blanks, then villain would have to make a substantial bet into a protected pot on the turn, in order to run you off the hand. If he does that and you have missed, then you can safely fold, knowing that you are beat (and dont have odds to call)

If the turn blanks, and he bets smallish, then you can call (having up to 15 outs).

Seeing the river is not all its cracked up to be.

We are a slight favourite against a range of weak/marginal hands most of which are 9x, so we don't lose anything by getting it in. It's hard to assign him a range that beats us, you have to include some two pair hands, and surely he is more likely to have A9 than 92. Against A9 specifically we are 55-60% depending on exactly what cards the others hold.

Villain can't really bet small on the turn, he has 220 left and the pot is 330 so it will likely be all in or nothing. If we think he will set us in on a blank turn but will fold to a scare card we are correct to get it in on the flop, and this would be true even if we were a slight dog against his range instead of a slight favourite. Finally, the slim chance that he holds a hand like K9 and a king will be good for the main pot is also a factor in favour of pushing.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

Villain can't really bet small on the turn, he has 220 left and the pot is 330 so it will likely be all in or nothing.

In my experience from live 12 games a player in his spot (he is oop isnt he?) will check a lot, bet smallish a lot, and bet the full pot very rarely.

RoundTower

I think villain is in position although the OP isn't 100% clear. If we were in position I would like calling a lot more.