3/6 cash hand

Gholimoli

Villain is a decent player who has been active with out getting caught.
He has reraised in position a few times taking down couple of pots pre flop and he has raised from the button good few times taking down the blinds.
Generally he is not shy of betting to take down pots if he feels there is a good chance he may do so but his never been seen to carry out with a hand if he encountered resistance with out the goods.
Hero and villain generally respect each others game and try not to get involved with each other.
They have been involved in a couple of pots in the last 30 min where villain has won both of them one for 100 the other for 50.
Stacks :
Villain :900
Hero :600
Hand
Hero open raises to 21 with jj from CO.
Folded to villain who reraises and makes it another 80 from BB.
Hero calls the bet.
Flop(180 ish)
8s 3s 7s
Villain leads for half the pot around 90.
Hero makes it 180 and leaves around 300 behind.
Villain pushes and covers.
Hero?

ianmc38

Fold.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

Villain pushes and covers.
Hero?

Loses the pot to AA or KK

fuzzbox

1. Dont minraise here
2. fold

careca

I'm not sure if you have the Js but i would imagine the villian has a bigger pair than you with a spade. After what you said about him he must have a proper hand and i reckon you are behind. whatever about calling if you have js, if not definite fold.

Gholimoli

hero has the Js if it makes any difference.

pok3rplaya

Gholimoli wrote:

Stacks :
Villain :900
Hero :600
Hand
Hero open raises to 21 with jj from CO.
Folded to villain who reraises and makes it another 80 from BB.

I'm considering saying fold right here. Whats your image, tight or loose?

Gholimoli wrote:

Hero calls the bet.
Flop(180 ish)
8s 3s 7s
Villain leads for half the pot around 90.
Hero makes it 180 and leaves around 300 behind.
Villain pushes and covers.
Hero?

Drop it like its hot.

If you really want to raise the flop, make it around $250. After his first flop bet his range is basically AA/KK/QQ/(TT)/As Kx/(AQ) depending on your image. Most of this is ahead of you.

If you don't want to fold when he bets; call to weed out the AK (whick will prob check the turn) and then re-evaluate on the turn.

Edit: didn't notice all the spades.

I think folding PF is best though.

Gholimoli

Ok as HJ says I was the villain in this hand.
I had Ad Td on the BB .the reason why I reraised was that I had seen him try to steal a few times and fold to a reraise.we had been involved in a few pots recently in which I defended my blind with KJs and check called his flop bet when a K came on the flop and won a 100 pot.
After he flat called my reraise I put on him on AQ+ or TT,JJ,QQ.i knew he would reraise with any pair higher than that.
After the flop came with 3 spades I lead out to represent AA,KK .his min raise assured me that he has the board beat with a higher pair but that’s about it.
The fact that he left enough behind him told me that he can fold to a push so I decided to push and thought he cant possibly call with out flush, AA, KK and I just didn’t think he had any of them.
I was wrong and he called with JJ with he Js and got another spade on the river to win the hand with a J high flush.
Here is my question:
Is it total stupidity to try to take pots like this in cash games?
Should you ever get involved like this for big pots with nothing?
As far as im concerned I would have fold here with JJ ,because the way I played the hand looked like AA,KK with A or K of spade but is it –EV to assume others will understand it?I mean this player is not a total donkey and he can fold JJ here so my other question is was he pot committed and was 300 not enough here?
Do you cash game players ever try plays like this or is it just bad?

fuzzbox

Gholi - I would check/fold this flop 80% of the time, if I had done what you did.

As played, I would fold to the minraise.

careca

I honestly believe that some of the plays/thoughts here only work on very good players. Some of the thought processes on this forum from some of the better players are excellent and I learn something from them every day. However you can't assume that the players you are playing against think through the hand the same way or at all. And the fact that its 3/6 or 5/10 makes no difference, imo.

An example that i have seen more and more is in omaha. If you raise preflop on a board where there have been few preflop raises, then its assumed AAxx or some big pair cordinated. When the flop comes with three of the same suit and you have the A of that suit (only, ie no flush), I would sometimes continue the betting knowing that no-one can have the nut flush. It makes no difference whatsoever. Players call in a flash with any two completing the flush and they will call flop/turn/river bets with this hand. whats worse is when they win you will always see some muppet saying "nh" and actually meaning it.

I think most of the pros will say, never bluff a bad player.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Gholi - I would check/fold this flop 80% of the time, if I had done what you did.

As played, I would fold to the minraise.

Fozz i would prob check fold this flop 90% of the time after he has called my raise pre flop.
however my question is this:should my line ever be tried or was it a stupid and hopeles effort with out any chance of success .
should i be keeping an eye on sutuations like this or shall i never ever get involved in big pots like this with junk?

Bp!

Gholi I can see why you played the hand the way you did and with your aggresive style alot of people said they would have laid it down, i watched you play last week for a bit on the 3/6 tables and you were playin very well and makin some nice dough. But i dont know most, *alot* of players on Tribecca (im currently only playin 2/4) do not believe you when you tryin to tell them you have AA/KK , just take note of these players and play them hard against these players when you have them, they will pay you off in a flash if they catch anything, I dropped 400+ tryin to convince a certain player last night i had AA/KK on a 10 high flop , rerasin his BB lead on the 10 high flop and pushin the turn to his raise only for him to show 10 8 offsuit. (i had AK)

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

Fozz i would prob check fold this flop 90% of the time after he has called my raise pre flop.
however my question is this:should my line ever be tried or was it a stupid and hopeles effort with out any chance of success .
should i be keeping an eye on sutuations like this or shall i never ever get involved in big pots like this with junk?

Gholi - the problem is that this flop is very good for villains hand range, and therefore its bad to try to push him around here. Plus, he could easily have the hand you are representing, and he simply might not believe you.

87x monotone flop is good for .... 77+ and AsX and even some varieties of big pair + fd (just in case they are behind).

Give it up more often than not, especially as you have f.ck all outs.

Hectorjelly

I disagree fuzzbox, this is an excellent flop. The villain will often have no pair and no spade, hes not calling here. If you reraise preflop you are kind of committed to betting the flop. Once your minraised obviously it becomes a different story.

fuzzbox

HJ, I would check this flop with a lot of hands that I reraised with, and not necessarily fold to a bet.

And reraising preflop should not 100% commit you to betting the flop.

Gholimoli

the min raise here seems to be of some importance.
considering the stack sizes here and the texture of the flop and the way the hand has been played,what does the min raise most likely mean?

fuzzbox

It means he is a tw@t. But it also means that you are beat (duh) and that he is not likely to fold (I rarely see dudes minraise, and then subsequently fold to a reraise)

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I rarely see dudes minraise, and then subsequently fold to a reraise

That's important. Once he minraises you should fold.

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

That's important. Once he minraises you should fold.

How come it is common knowledge here that minraises are MONSTER hands but in the land of random player they are sucker bets. Is it not possible that someone that doesn't post on boards knows that a minraise is suspicious and will set off warning bells and likely get better hands to fold?

ianmc38

5starpool wrote:

How come it is common knowledge here that minraises are MONSTER hands but in the land of random player they are sucker bets. Is it not possible that someone that doesn't post on boards knows that a minraise is suspicious and will set off warning bells and likely get better hands to fold?

I was berated for making that very point in a thread a few weeks ago. I use the min-raise bluff against certain opponents. I think it can be very effective in the right spot.

The profile of this villain doesn't sound like he'll fold to a push. Unless I have detailed notes about this villain that tell me he'll fold, then i'll give it up when he raises.

fuzzbox

The higher you go, the less often minraise = monster.

Gholimoli

i certainly dont have the expriance that alot of ppl have re cash games here but to be honest i hardly found min raise to be a monster in 2/4 3/6 .
usually i see it from stupid donkeys that try it post flop after your lead or your raise as a last chance of stealing the pot.
some times it happens on the turn as well if they have some sort of a drawing hand that they have just missed on the turn as well after calling a big bet on the flop.
thats why i didnt see the min raise as a big monster hand here and even though i knew i was behind i thought maybe i could take the pot away.

MrPillowTalk

Personally Ehsan I think you played a nice but there are a couple of things about it that pop out to me.

If I had the JJ I wouldnt put you on AA KK as I would think "this guy knows Im playing aggresive he will call and check or lead in to me on the flop with AA KK"

Also your 90 bet on the flop looks like either 1) you have the single suited ace and want to see a cheap turn ie a block bet or 2) you hat the board and want to find out if I have any of it. So that in mind I would raise you, I wouldnt have min raised like he did but I defo raise, when you push I hate to call but would have to as it just looks like a draw to me.

In a tourney this would work better than in a cash game. Also after he calls the strong raise pre flop and I have AT I am either 1) betting stronger on the flop and going away to a raise or 2) just plain being done with the hand unless I get some help on the board.

After this one shows down nut peddle for an hour or so.

Edit: a min raise on the flop can mean anything and is getting to be a very popular play lately, min raise on a turn or river if there is a decent ammount allready in the middle is a good indication of a big hand.