Outspoken Politicians

Culchie

I don't know about you, but I wish we had alot more of them.

Politicians are just 'cogs in he wheel' of the big party machinery.

It's great to hear when one of them has a point of principle and start to fight their corner, but 99% of them wimp out and toe the party line.

Politicians should be able to sense and feel the pulse of their constituents, and freely express that view on their behalf, and to hell with being 'politically correct'.

The best one I can remember was Flannery's quote a few years ago about the travellers "able-bodied men lying in the sun like pedigree dogs".

Jackie Healy Rae is another one who seems to fight his corner somewhat.

What was your favourite stance taken by a politician over an issue that means something to you?

road_high

Culchie wrote:

I don't know about you, but I wish we had alot more of them.

Politicians are just 'cogs in he wheel' of the big party machinery.

It's great to hear when one of them has a point of principle and start to fight their corner, but 99% of them wimp out and toe the party line.

Politicians should be able to sense and feel the pulse of their constituents, and freely express that view on their behalf, and to hell with being 'politically correct'.

The best one I can remember was Flannery's quote a few years ago about the travellers "able-bodied men lying in the sun like pedigree dogs".

Jackie Healy Rae is another one who seems to fight his corner somewhat.

What was your favourite stance taken by a politician over an issue that means something to you?

I know our local FF TD, John McGuinness likes to 'speak out' on issues like he's a kind of oppossition politician.Then he goes into dail and votes with the govt regardless.That is my experience of 'outspoken' politicians.
Jacky Healy Rae is the epitomy of gombeen Irish politics as far as i'm concerned, can't stand him really.

SeanW

Not necessarily (ok this is going to sound like a big plug for FG but it's not).

One day I was really major big-time bored so I started watching Pat Kenny.

So he had an FG politician named Dr. Bill Tormey (not be confused with Wexford politician Bill Twomey)

anyways IIRC he came out with a bunch of controversial stuff, like saying that drugs should be legalised because if you're too stupid to know drugs are bad for you, that's none of the State's business.

Asked by Pat if the party was OK with him expressing opinionated views such as his, he claimed he was told, and I quote "no bird ever flew on one wing."

If true, it means that whatever else FG may or may not be, they have room for dissenting voices.

Enda may be look like a girly man (thanks Schwarzenegger) and have presence of a cement brick, but I wouldn't write off him and his crew just yet.

trippy30

I remember interviewing one of the FG camp and thats how they conduct their affairs I was told too.

So its pretty much left up to the individual to express their own view on a variety of issues. Im in favour of it to a degree.

The trouble is, with that a balance has to be struck - whats party opinion and what is the individuals is difficult to determine at times.

It does however give the TD flexibity shall we say to tailor their response to their constituency. But I personally think its dangerous cos it will be a 'let down' for people if they come into power. Being all things to all people doesn’t I believe work.

I like FG, but I think they are being too populist at the moment.

It was a shame to see none of them acknowledge what Enda said was unconstitutional and just plain wrong. That in my mind is what a outspoken politician means.

It would be refreshing to see some of them say they didn’t personally agree with it.
I remember watching Mairead McGuiness discuss it and she defended it. I couldnt believe it, as I really like her. I still do, but it is really disappointing.
I think that is what gives a party credibility in a way.

Anton74

mfitzy wrote:

I know our local FF TD, John McGuinness likes to 'speak out' on issues like he's a kind of oppossition politician.Then he goes into dail and votes with the govt regardless.That is my experience of 'outspoken' politicians.
Jacky Healy Rae is the epitomy of gombeen Irish politics as far as i'm concerned, can't stand him really.

Well I think you may be the gombeen since you cannot even spell his name. I am a young Kerry constituent and I have seen Jackie Healy Rae at work. He is a down to earth HONEST hardworking person. He is smart and has a great heart and way of dealing with people. He gets things done and he makes the voters proud of their choice. Please ensure you actually have facts before calling him a gombeen of all things.

flogen

trippy30 wrote:

I remember interviewing one of the FG camp and thats how they conduct their affairs I was told too.

So its pretty much left up to the individual to express their own view on a variety of issues. Im in favour of it to a degree.

The trouble is, with that a balance has to be struck - whats party opinion and what is the individuals is difficult to determine at times.

It does however give the TD flexibity shall we say to tailor their response to their constituency. But I personally think its dangerous cos it will be a 'let down' for people if they come into power. Being all things to all people doesn’t I believe work.

I like FG, but I think they are being too populist at the moment.

It was a shame to see none of them acknowledge what Enda said was unconstitutional and just plain wrong. That in my mind is what a outspoken politician means.

It would be refreshing to see some of them say they didn’t personally agree with it.
I remember watching Mairead McGuiness discuss it and she defended it. I couldnt believe it, as I really like her. I still do, but it is really disappointing.
I think that is what gives a party credibility in a way.

The problem is that you can't be all things to all people which is what this FG attitude seems to imply.

Basically, if TDs are told to speak their mind they'll often tell constituents what they want to hear to secure re-election - but as is part and parcel of the modern party system they'll have very little say in what way the party actually acts when it comes down to a vote.

Outspoken TDs only tend to exist where it's worth their while going against the party line - that usually only happens for parish-pump issues. Michael McDowell went against the Gov line on the Poolbeg incinerator because he figured it would get him votes... that said he was coincidently doing a tour of Santry Garda Station when the opposition tabled a motion to oppose it's creation.

A few TDs also find reason to break ranks when they're not getting a look in otherwise (or when they think their party is unpopular). That happened on two seperate occasions just before this election - can't remember names but one guy left the party because he felt Bertie had forsaken all the democratic procedures of the parliamentary party (a local cumman's vote for constituency candidate was ignored by HQ apparently). Another didn't get a party nomination and suddenly got annoyed at the lack of focus on The West of Ireland - decided it was time to leave and go Independent.

(May I add as an aside - Dr. Bill Tormey hasn't a clue. If I remember correctly he spoke about segregating communities in that interview too - putting ex-criminals in designated area away from the "normal" folk. He's a councillor in Dublin North West and seeing the havoc a few bad apples can create when concentrated in an area (see Ballymun, Finglas etc.) he should have a little more sense than that. This idea and his attitude to drug legalisation both smack of him washing his hands of a problem he's unable to deal with positively - if you want to be a crack-head then go ahead, but don't bother me with it. If your a criminal I'll put you in this place over here where you can't bother me.)

stovelid

Just lost a good one - Joe Higgins.

brianthebard

Culchie wrote:

The best one I can remember was Flannery's quote a few years ago about the travellers "able-bodied men lying in the sun like pedigree dogs".

Sounds like a lot of council workers I see on the road. What was this quote supposed to prove anyways?

Rock Climber

Ah poor old Joe Higgins.
His comment that he and Bertie might go down together as the last socialists in the Dáil.
That exchange remains the funniest.

SeanW

flogen wrote:

(May I add as an aside - Dr. Bill Tormey hasn't a clue. If I remember correctly he spoke about segregating communities in that interview too - putting ex-criminals in designated area away from the "normal" folk. He's a councillor in Dublin North West and seeing the havoc a few bad apples can create when concentrated in an area (see Ballymun, Finglas etc.) he should have a little more sense than that.

So it's better to have them scattered all over the place? Where the bring a little bit of havok to every neighborhood?

This idea and his attitude to drug legalisation both smack of him washing his hands of a problem he's unable to deal with positively - if you want to be a crack-head then go ahead, but don't bother me with it.

Classic liberalism. You don't bother me, I won't bother you. If someone decides to do drugs, takes full responsibility for their own actions and does not violate the rights of others, who are we to tell them not to do it? As a citizen on whos partial behalf these laws are made, I don't feel it's any of my business to tell anyone else not to smoke pot or whatever, even though I have little interest in that crap myself.

We need more of this from our politicians, not less.

flogen

SeanW wrote:

So it's better to have them scattered all over the place? Where the bring a little bit of havok to every neighborhood?

No, we need to focus on the causes of crime, not on the best way to manage the criminals so they don't bother us.

Classic liberalism. You don't bother me, I won't bother you. If someone decides to do drugs, takes full responsibility for their own actions and does not violate the rights of others, who are we to tell them not to do it? As a citizen on whos partial behalf these laws are made, I don't feel it's any of my business to tell anyone else not to smoke pot or whatever, even though I have little interest in that crap myself.

We need more of this from our politicians, not less.

Actually it's classic libertarianism, and I'd consider that to be my ethos too.

Of course the problem is that drug use all to often does lead to a violation of another's rights and Tormey's simplification of the drug problem shows either laziness or ignorance.

Drugs aren't a problem because they're illegal - they're a problem because they're addictive. If someone makes the decision that such an addiction is right for them, fine. But do you honestly believe that most junkies in Ireland made such a decision based on the full facts or when they were in a reasonable frame of mind? And even if they did, their decision usually leads to the violation of the rights of their families, friends and in many cases victims.

The suggestion that we legalise drugs and let the people decide what to do is a nice, utopian principal but it's completely ignorant to the realities of the various chemicals and their effect on humans.

oscarBravo

Anton74 wrote:

Well I think you may be the gombeen since you cannot even spell his name. [...] Please ensure you actually have facts before calling him a gombeen of all things.

Please ensure you have read the charter before deciding to call other posters names.

mike65

FG has a tradition of Tds who speak thier brains - John Kelly, Austin Deasy, John Deasy and of course Oliver J Flannagan (ahem).

Noel Browne is possibly the uber-example of this sort of thing and it ultimately did for him as he bounced from one party to another in search of a home that would put up with him.

Mike.

Anton74

oscarBravo wrote:

Please ensure you have read the charter before deciding to call other posters names.

??????????????????

If you want to see local politics at its best check, out the website of Jackie Healy Rae. One of the last of the old school politicians, despised by the intelligentsia, Jackie was famously elected by the people who in his words “ eat their dinner in the middle of the day”. That is country people who eat their main meal at noon as distinct from urban professionals who have their main meal in the evening. Jackie is widely seen as vulnerable and with his back to wall has been pulling every stroke in the book. He raised a huge fuss when he discovered that ballot paper had been printed which misspelt his name as Ray instead Rae, but magnanimously conceded that it was human error rather than a conspiracy. The joke of course is that Rae is not part of his name but the town land where he was born; it is simply a way of distinguishing his family from the numerous other Healy’s in the locality. Last weekend he staged a rally in Kilorglan the likes of which had not been seen since the 1950’s flanked by an honour guard of men bearing flaming sods of turf (sods of peat soaked in petrol) he rallied more than a thousand of his supporters to urge them to come out canvass and get the vote out. I hope he makes it, the Dail would be a far less colourful place without him.

Seamus Mulconry is Edelman Dublin’s Director of Public Affairs.

Rock Climber

Bye bye anton.
I've a feeling we've seen you here before.

oscarBravo

Anton74 wrote:

??????????????????

Did I stutter?

Anton74 wrote:

If you want to see local politics at its best check, out the website of Jackie Healy Rae. One of the last of the old school politicians, despised by the intelligentsia, Jackie was famously elected by the people who in his words “ eat their dinner in the middle of the day”. That is country people who eat their main meal at noon as distinct from urban professionals who have their main meal in the evening. Jackie is widely seen as vulnerable and with his back to wall has been pulling every stroke in the book. He raised a huge fuss when he discovered that ballot paper had been printed which misspelt his name as Ray instead Rae, but magnanimously conceded that it was human error rather than a conspiracy. The joke of course is that Rae is not part of his name but the town land where he was born; it is simply a way of distinguishing his family from the numerous other Healy’s in the locality. Last weekend he staged a rally in Kilorglan the likes of which had not been seen since the 1950’s flanked by an honour guard of men bearing flaming sods of turf (sods of peat soaked in petrol) he rallied more than a thousand of his supporters to urge them to come out canvass and get the vote out. I hope he makes it, the Dail would be a far less colourful place without him.

Seamus Mulconry is Edelman Dublin’s Director of Public Affairs.

There's a rule in the charter about copying and pasting external articles without discussion. There's also a rule about attribution of external sources.

Given that I'd just warned you about reading the charter, have a week off.

Macy

flogen wrote:

Drugs aren't a problem because they're illegal - they're a problem because they're addictive.

The problem for society is that they're illegal, which leads to the criminality of the addict and makes it so lucrative to the gangsters. Make them available by prescription from a GP.

Put the money spent on the "war on drugs" into education about the effect of drugs (it should be part of the education system anyway).

Back on topic, no point being outspoken if you're talking nonsense. Outspoken too often means those that shout loudest - all noise no substance rather than some mythical intellect (eg McDowell).

flogen

Macy wrote:

The problem for society is that they're illegal, which leads to the criminality of the addict and makes it so lucrative to the gangsters. Make them available by prescription from a GP.

Huh? Sure, junkies shouldn't be treated as criminals just because they have an addiction - when you put someone in prison for being on drugs you're basically putting them into the country's best supplier anyway.

But a GP selling heroine as opposed to some scumbag on the street - well that just diverts the revenue stream from one guy to another. It doesn't solve the problem of addiction, it doesn't make the drugs any more affordable, it doesn't make the junkie any better off and able to afford said drugs without committing crime himself. The only benefit is that it might lead to "safer" drugs, but again, that's not the real problem.

Put the money spent on the "war on drugs" into education about the effect of drugs (it should be part of the education system anyway).

War on Drugs? That was the USA.
And why should we divert money from tackling drug availability to increasing awareness? Why is it always A or B, not both? It's like when people give out about the fictional benefits that they believe asylum seekers are getting - they always say "We should look after our own before we start looking after foreigners."
Why can't we do both?

Back on topic, no point being outspoken if you're talking nonsense. Outspoken too often means those that shout loudest - all noise no substance rather than some mythical intellect (eg McDowell).

I agree with you on this - people get tired of headline grabbing rants and I think McDowell suffered from this - people liked what he was saying but never saw results or progress coming from it.

McDowell, I think, treated politics like it was the courtroom. He said what needed to be said to impress at the time, and once he'd won (or lost) that case he moved on to the next. There was little in terms of consistency or longevity in his points. It was always about looking as good as he could there and then - that's why he played this hard-man act as Justice minister and it's why people seem to think that he stood up to gangland and the IRA when he didn't really do anything other than criticise them.
Unfortunately for him, maybe out of pure bad timing, maybe out of his own incompetence, maybe out of dangerous spinning by the media and opposition, people at least felt less safe while he was in charge and so he failed.