Bujinkan - Practical Self Defence?

CarolLorraine

I was wondering how people here rate Bujinkan as a practical form of self defence?

ninjawitatitude

Hey carol,
The majority of Bujinkan techniques are sound, but make sure you train in a progressive dojo, i.e. you are allowed to spar your techniques. Otherwise you are wasting your time. A gun is just an a heavy lump of metal until someone shows you how to use it.

Hope this helps

fookchooknooris

i think it's pretty crap.

columok

I don't rate it at all.

Cake Fiend

I've never trained in it personally, but a bujinkan brown-belt came to train in my (karate) dojo once and he was quite the source of (comic) entertainment. I'd find it hard to take the fighting ability of anyone wearing tabi boots seriously, but maybe that's just me

judomick

lol at someone trying to fight with this

CarolLorraine

Nuff said then, Thanks

Millionaire

leave the funny boots and the ninja stuff aside...

a punch is a punch is a punch...and it all depends on
how the punch is trained...and sparred.

for example some styles of karate may not be effective depending
on how their trained, but if you go to an effective and a hard training
dojo...like Shane Thomas MMA Ireland Dojo which is kyushinkai karate (with mma too). with hard training, and full on sparring...now your talking an extremely effective type of karate.. the punches are similar..its what you do with the punches that matter.

and that goes for nearly all styles.

learn to punch, and punch hard, (proper training, sparring), and if
you need to do SD, put the punch somewhere...and mean it...as in
your attackers jaw for example...and crack him as hard as you can!

now thats effective SD!

fookchooknooris

CarolLorraine wrote:

Nuff said then, Thanks

Do you train in Bujinkan? In Dublin? what do you think of it? Were you considering taking up Bujinkan? Or are you doing some investigative work?

Baggio...

Hello,

Hmm... I did it for about 6 months or so (going back many years now). Again, I can only speak from my own personal experience. I felt that it was just very average TMA - nothing special. With loads of emphasis on weapons, gymnastics and the usual TMA heavy blocking (which wont work in reality anyway). I spent ages rolling around the floor and learning bizarre stance work. Also spending loads of time on “exotic weapons” (not like you can use them on the street anyway ). Time badly spent I feel, there are much better things that I could have spent my time on. I have a few mates that have been doing it for years, while they believe in the system 100% I would not go near it personally. Check out some RBSD material instead.

That's just my take anyway...

Cheers,

B.

pearsquasher

Well considering Bujinkan is studied by 1000's of professional security personel from all over the world, it must have some benefits for self defence application. Lots of martial arts claim this though, so its sort of moot.

I study it and it's saved my ass in an armed confrontation. Is that moot? Not for me, for that one time... but then again i'm not studying it for self defence application.

Judomick, do you even know the context of the picture you posted? Where is it said that item is used for fighting with?

And for the record:

- Bujinkan doesn't do the "usual TMA heavy blocking"
- "its what you do with the punches that matter" i would agree but it's also important what you do before during and after too which Bujinkan pays particular attention too, such that the actual punching bit is relatively easy and negates hours of heavy-bag work.

Every Bujinkan dojo i've been in - and it's been a few, seeing as i'm travelling at the moment - has elements of sparring, so please don't try to paint Bujinkan as being unprogressive if it doesn't have it. Bujinkan has an entirley different approach to "fighting" than more sparring-based martial sports. Different mindset folks... but don't take my word for it, its a doing thing, and it takes a while but thats life.

Any questions feel free join a dojo, train hard and eventually you may get answers to its practicality in self defence... or not. I'm happy with it but your mileage may vary.

Baggio...

Guys,

Just because thousands of of people do something it doesn't mean it's right. Plus, I find those figures somewhat vague (it may have been used at one point when it was fashionable back in the 90's). Who uses it exactly? And why is it not used in the military? Please don't say the US or British Army uses it.They don't...

As I said previously, I have a few mates that have been doing it for years - they love it, and believe in it. In my opinion from what I have seen, it's stuff that is over complicated and very traditional (it was not designed for modern urban defense anyway). From what I have seen they still employ traditional blocks and stances. One of my mates goes to a Ninpo school that claims to be very progressive. I have not been impressed , everything that I have seen has been “sub Combatives”. I can't comment on pearsquasher dojo to be fair, they may have something else to offer. Yes there are some very skilled Ninpo guys out there – just like every other Martial Art. If you want to study it for cultural reasons or whatever - Great! It will take you years and years before you get any good, but if that's what you are after a whole “lifestyle”. Fine...

Again if you just want street smarts, why go through all that gymnastics, stealth, exotic weapons, etc? In my opinion it's wasted time, there is no logical reason to utilize such weapons and techniques. If you just want to be able to defend yourself, your time would be much better spent on learning some practical concepts and punching a heavy bag. If you want to be able to defend yourself quickly take up Combatives, boxing, Mauy tai, MMA.

But don't take my word for it. The best thing you could do is to check out a few Ninpo dojos. Then go and check out some RBSD stuff. If you still think Ninpo is more practical – then take it up. Why not check out a few different styles? Just don't be “wowed” by the ambiance.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

PS – I'd be very interested in hearing some of the more progressive concepts that Pearsquasher might employ in his Dojo. Again, I always try to have an open mind.

CarolLorraine

Hi guys! First off, thanks for replying to my question. Your opinions are appreciated.

I am doing a women's Krav Maga class at the moment which I think is brilliant. Really enjoying it. I'm looking to study something more though and was looking around at the different martial arts. There is so much out there!

The reason I asked about Bujinkan is exactly because of the feedback I am getting, even in this thread - the mixed feelings on it! People seem to either love it or hate it which I find some bit interesting and some bit confusing. I directed the question specifically at Bujinkan's effectiveness in self defence as they are advertising it as a good form of self defence.

Also I wouldn't be put off by the fact that they are studying some very traditional weapons in Bujinkan. I'm reading Geoff Thompson's autobiography at the moment and he referred to different but traditional weapons he has for self defence. In fact, he went one face-off with a samurai sword by his side (funny thing is the guy he was meeting sent his mother and sister instead. Can you imagine?!!). However I do think I'll give Bujinkan a miss. I don't think it's quite what I'm looking for.

Anyway, In regards to the Reality Based Self Defence Mixed Martial Arts, I don't mean to sound like a total girl asking this but if something's full contact and I'm a beginner in a mixed class (even it's only mixed because I'm there) does this pretty much automatically mean I'm going to get beaten up on a regular basis?

Thanks
Carol

pearsquasher

I think most questions can be answered by checking out some Bujinkan FAQ pages. Here's one I'd recommend if anyone's interested:

http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/

As for

PS – I'd be very interested in hearing some of the more progressive concepts that Pearsquasher might employ in his Dojo.

Classical Bujutsu kata are inherently progressive and the study of these is one method employed in most Bujinkan dojo i have attended. For info on Classical Bujutsu kata read some contempory Bujinkan books, books by Karl Friday, Diane Skoss or other classical martial artists or else join a dojo and spend some time studying there and you might begin to understand. Otherwise it's sort of hard to define the methodoligy on a forum where most members are martial sports practicioners. Sorry I can't be of more help but the Bujinkan is really a doing thing.

Roper

Whereabouts are you living CarolLorraine? You might get a few recommendations.

CarolLorraine

I was thinking of heading down to Shane Thomas' Kyokushin Karate with MMA class this Thursday. It's in the East Wall area. I'm based in North Strand so would be handy location.

Roper

He might be available live now at chat.mmaireland.com

If you fancy shopping around, we're in Glasnevin, a bit more of a journey but we're worth it;)

Millionaire

I think anyone who is serious about RBSD, will be going hard sparring.

for examples me this year, I am 95% learnign Muay Thai, and 5% combatives right now. However combatives, if it is back up with good training, and I have 3 years combatives ish training, it sort of become part of you. gross motor skills techniques...etc etc

CarolLorraine

Millionaire wrote:

I think anyone who is serious about RBSD, will be going hard sparring.

Uh oh! Did I mention that the Krav Maga class I did was all female?

I don't mind hard sparring but as long as it's with someone of equal or relative strength. If you put me, a female beginner with a stronger male with more experience, we won't be sparring for long, will we?

Roper

What's wrong with females sparring? Its all about levels of intensity, like anything, starting low and building up. Good safety equipment will mean you're never going to walk away hurt.

FiannaGym.com

Hey,

obviously if a woman wants to defend herself from attacking males she should train with "attacking males". Obviously in a safe, friendly and FUN manner.

The likelyhood of you being attacked is probably fairly slim, and if you wanted to reduce it there are alot better ways than training. But never mind that! Just go training, do take up mma, do learn to love it, go as hard as you like or as gentle as you like. MMA is often presented as an agressive tough sport, and for some it is, for the really good its a skillful sport, void of any emotions other than determination, composure, focus etc. Its just the best stuff in the world!

Peace

Baggio...

Hiya,

You could always go the MMA route. But personally I think it's better to go with something that has been specifically designed to deal with the street, and not just competitions. If you are reading the Geoff Thompson stuff you are very much on the right track. MMA does not really cover stuff like Pre and Post conflict (I'm not talking about match fighting). Soft skills such as awareness, attitude, mindset, situational control, etc. are more important than the physical skills.

Get the “three second fighter DVD” from the Geoff Thompson Website. It's well worth the cash, and will steer you in the right direction.

Cheers,

B.

Baggio...

MMA bods,

Just a thought...
I was wondering what advantages you think MMA would have over Combatives? Again, I'm not trying to drag up “ye old argument”. Just curious where you guys are coming from, and why you would not look into something that was specifically designed for such a purpose. I'd really like to know what MMA has to offer to some one who just wants to be able to defend themselves against a committed street attack, as opposed to other forms of RBSD?

Cheers,

B.

Lemming

Baggio... wrote:

Guys,

Just because thousands of of people do something it doesn't mean it's right. Plus, I find those figures somewhat vague

Ah .... what's good for the pot is good for the kettle eh?

*cough*

crokester

Yes but Elytron what if, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla etc etc etc. Just wait for it;)

Baggio...

Elytron,

Okay, that's fair enough. I think we all agree that most MMA guys are pretty tough and have decent skills, but I would not underestimate the Combatives crew either. I'm not slagging off MMA or saying that it's not functional, but what's wrong with looking at other concepts as well? It could only improve you as an all round fighter.

Thing is, MMA isn't really suitable for everyone. Say a middle-aged school teacher, who has never done a days training in her life, wants to be able to defend herself ASAP. Would it be useful for her to get into the ring and wrestle and spar? I think not. Would your Mum or Dad want to get into the ring? How many girls practice MMA? It really appeals to a certain person, does it not?

Not everybody wants to roll about on the floor and grapple, spar and then get into a ring. Again, I'm not really interested in building “Athletes” to be honest. I'm more interested for the average guy or gal who is looking to be able to defend themselves ASAP. The other thing about Combatives is that you can up your skill level to whatever you want, and you can take it to a functional level really quickly. Or you can spend the rest of your life developing your skills. It is also suitable for everyone....If you are a really hard bs'tard cool. If you are a 90lb weakling cool... Is it a 100% guarantee? Nope, but nothing is.

Your comments about the rotating hips and stomping are a bit naive. What's wrong with maximizing your power as well as having really fast hand skills? If you doubt the power and speed that it can generate, why don't you go to a seminar some time and see what the story is? Then make your mind up empirically.

Lemming

crokester wrote:

Yes but Elytron what if, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla etc etc etc. Just wait for it;)

Tbh ... any argument can be used on any art, regardless of "how good" it is, or "how popular" or insert any number of a series of anally-retarded reasons. If there was any one art that did exactly what it said on the tin fool-proof guaruanteed, then we'd all be doing it and every other art would be sidelined.

Find what's good for you. What suits you. More importantly what captures your imagination and you enjoy. And then do it. Take input from everyone else if you must when deciding what to do, but just remember that their beliefs are just that .. beliefs. And to quote the immortal (and sadly rather dead Bill Hicks):

"Beliefs are neat. Cherish them, but don't share them like they're the truth".


Oh .. I'm sorry, was someone waiting for a TMA vs. MMA flame?

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Thing is, MMA isn't really suitable for everyone. Say a middle-aged school teacher, who has never done a days training in her life, wants to be able to defend herself ASAP. Would it be useful for her to get into the ring and wrestle and spar? I think not. Would your Mum or Dad want to get into the ring? How many girls practice MMA? It really appeals to a certain person, does it not?

EEH UGH! Hmm, I was trying to make the 'wrong answer' sound from Family Fortunes, didn't work out as well as I thought.:)

I have to be careful here, but I have two women training away who are, eh, older than me anyway. (being really careful not to mention age!) They enjoy it, spar, wrestle and do the occasional bit of ground work. They're training about 3 months, and they have the skills of an 18 year old who's been training 3 months. The difference is that the intensity level of what they do is different to that of an 18 year old.

Its a common misconception that when you train MMA, everyone, to use your words, has "to get in the ring". That's bullsh1t. I'm just thinking of John Kavanagh's gym, which probably has about 80 members. How many of those get in the ring? Or have got in the ring? I'd say about 10 or so. What do the other 70 do I wonder? What about my group who train away in MMA and none of whom get in the ring?

MMA, and full contact arts like Muay Thai miss out on older people taking part in them because of misconceptions like this. Now granted, there are a few who would like to keep their clubs full of twentysomething superstuds and they don't help matters, but I'd say they're exception and not rule.

Mick Coup

Guys,

I personally believe that any style or system can be effective - it's all down to the individual after all. Certain training regimes make for better attribute development, certain techniques are more suitable - but you can make anything work with the right attitude, however esoteric, and anything can fail with the wrong attitude - however 'combative' it may be.

Whilst I've used that particular 'C' word, can I just make a few points regarding it's usage - as it seems to be treated as a seperate style or system on this forum, and many others, when it isn't.

The word 'combatives' is just a term to describe methods used to actually fight with, in the same way that you could have the term 'sportives' to describe methods to compete with - it wouldn't be a style all of it's own rather just a general heading.

Using the term combatives as a general heading is the way forward, rather than just attaching it to a collection of dirty tricks taught to secret agents in WW2 (which were based on martial arts techniques anyway!). So under this banner you could be practising a combative form of karate, or MMA or ninjutsu for that matter if your prime focus is for actual combat rather than art or sport.

I personally know very little about the WW2 methods - I've never read a book by Fairbairn - but I teach combatives, pure and simple, and have done for the last 17 years without deviation, both in and out of active military service.

So how about putting the term to it's proper use? It's not a style or a system in itself, and neither is 'RBSD', just a broad collective title indicating a training focus.

Mick

Roper

Mick,
That's what I thought alright, it gets a little murky round here.

pearsquasher

I guess no-ones too bothered to at least read about classical bujutsu, like the Bujinkan contains, to find out why it uses a different approach to fighting than most modern MA's.

Has anyone seen the Bujinkan video of Hatsumi teaching at Englands Hendon police college in the 90's? Might interest you to see how experienced police officers manage with Bujinkan arts and their practicality. You'll not see any gymnastic or exotic weapons or stealth but you'll see why soem of these things are thought if you have the eyes to see it.

Baggio...

Roper,

When I say get into a ring I don't necessarily mean going out and having a full contact tournament match fight, my mistake. How many Women did you say? Two? Not exactly loads is it?

Mick's right, Combatives is not really a style per se. Although some people do have that whole Combatives WW II lineage thing going on – who cares? I just want something that works. I don't care where or what it comes from.

There are more reports of average people with no training having successfully defended themselves in highly stressful situations. This is just down to the will to survive, and having the right mindset. It's all down to attitude...

Baggio...

Pearsquasher,

I will check it out and get back to you. Like I said, I try to have an open mind.

One thing that the words “progressive, functional, combat, etc.” Implies to me, that something has been changed in order to work for a more contemporary time period. I.E. – “functional Karate”, “Combat Kung Fu” or whatever. This implies that the art was not really suited to the job in the first place. So it's now been “re-engineered” to function in todays “violent society”. People will always leave previous concepts in from TMA, I see it all the time. But why try and make a square fit into a round hole? Why not use something that has been proven to work, and that was designed for that very purpose in the first place? That's just me... Again, I can't speak about your Dojo or concepts, as I have not trained there.

Cheers,

B.

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

When I say get into a ring I don't necessarily mean going out and having a full contact tournament match fight, my mistake. How many Women did you say? Two? Not exactly loads is it?

Those are just two women I used as an example of "older" women after you used the example of a middle aged teacher. There are actually about 6 women who train in my place including these two.

Einstein

Did none of ye see the film?

Batman did Ninjutsu...he rocks...

Mick Coup

He did Keysi in a ninja suit mate!

Very photogenic stuff, but.....

Baggio...

Roper,

MMA has a bad rap, or subject to “misconceptions” as you would say yourself. I went to a Kick boxing school some years back. 50% of the class were woman, and it was a pretty big Club. Again its an accessibility issue... or at least a perceived issue. As you said yourself “people think..”

So why not try and change the MMA image then? If you ask people what they see MMA as, most people will say UFC...A pretty intimidating thought for some newbie.

B.

Einstein

Mick Coup wrote:

He did Keysi in a ninja suit mate!

Very photogenic stuff, but.....

You watch the DVD extras too yeah? Just adding a touch of humour

Anyhoo, I did Bujinkan for bout 4 years in town. Enjoyed it to an extent, but people's attitude sucked, so the whole club split in two.

The techniques I found to be practical and I enjoyed it. But as already mentioned, it depends how it is for you. Different styles suit different people. Took me years before I really found a style i can relate to the easiest with Aikido, and although I don't train regularly in Aikido, I always refer to the principles in any defence / technique situation.

Theres one club in Dublin City that trains hard in Bujinkan but its not publicly advertised, The only place I'd train if I considered that style again tbh. If interested PM and I'll point in the right direction.

Dave

Baggio...

Micheal Keaton was always the best Batman...:)

pearsquasher

That's just me... Again, I can't speak about your Dojo or concepts, as I have not trained there.

Baggio...Not sure if your piece on progressiveness in martial arts was directed at me but i can safely inform you that the Bujinkan organisation is inherently progressive due to it's worldview and mindset, as the FAQ i linked to indicates.

Another thing that should be clear is that the "Bujinkan Brian Dojo" or BBD in Dublin has nothing to do with the Bujinkan Dojo as headed by Dr Hatsumi and i can personally testify that they are following completely different streams with the BBD - at least in 96 - following a more MMA style. This should be well known to all parties involved in each organisation but people interested in "Bujinkan" should find out first whats being talked about - BBD or Bujinkan International. In the end, each has it's own appeal to different people, but they really shouldn't be confused and if they are, then it's pretty much the responsibility of the practicioner to make sure they know what they're subscribing to.

Baggio...

Pear dude,

The progressive comment is not aimed at your organization in any way (apologies if you felt it was). I'm unfamiliar with your methods and practices so it would be unfair of me to make any judgments. I'm only speaking from what I have seen over the years in various martial arts. You know the type of Dojos that pop up and claim to be “combat functional and DEADLY”. But really it's TMA with a few head butts thrown in (okay I'm being a bit simplistic here, but you get the idea).

But for me personally, CQC (Combatives - call it whatever) is the best method that I have seen for civilian self-protection (and for the military, but that's very different situation altogether). That's just my conclusion from what I have made over the years training in various Martial Arts. But everyone has to make up their own mind.

Cheers,

B.

FiannaGym.com

Baggio, I think alot of MMA guys would say...

If combatives worked, we'd all use it in MMA.

It is no suprise that modern MMA has its roots with Count Koma and Judo. Specifically the removal of untrainable dangerous moves in favour of safe trainable ones. As I sit here I can through 50 eye gouges at the air, will that make me any better at eye gouges? Okay I have a flash gam on my desktop with george bush's face moving around the screen, I keep eye gouging that... will that make me better at eye gouges? Okay I have this punch bag shaped like a man, he has eyes, when I eye gouge him he goes "ow my eyes" will that make me any better? No. Basically these moves are untrainable and therefore useless. On the other hand I could just do thai, become a good athlete (better than my attackers whihc is half the battle already) have confidence and health. Now I can do lots to improve my right cross, and when I get attacked (touch would) my right cross will hook me up!

No if someone came on here and said "hey we do combatives, its a combination of stand-up, clinch and ground and we train like pro MMA fighters, but never plan on getting in the ring" I'd say "wow man thats great, but your missing out on some amazing fun in the ring and a huge learning experience... why not just be an MMA gym like all the rest, where people can compete if they want but the majority dont, they just enjoy the training?"

I think that is why alot of MMA guys dismiss alot of combatives. Cool?

Peace

Baggio...

Fianna,
Interesting... if not a tad way off.

“If combatives worked, we'd all use it in MMA.” - Well, not really...
If you used CQC in the ring there would be a lot of really bad injuries. That's why you guys have RULES - to prevent serious injury, it's a sport. Try it out... Get the toughest lad in your gym, go out onto the street. Tell him that everything goes. Butting, gouging, bitting, stamping, groin grabbing, any target, chuck in a knife. Plus the fights only over when one guy goes to hospital-See how you get on (Please don't try this at home kids, I'm only making a point). It can't be used as it's not designed for “sporting activity”.

I'm not too sure why all you MMA guys obsesses with this eye whole gouge thing (Cestari is only one dude). You thinks it's untrainable? Why? Again, heres a simple excersice...Find a CQC guy (or anyone for that matter) and ask him to jab you in the eye as hard as he can – see how you get on. Don't think that CQC is based on the mighty eye gouge or a series of dirty shots, it's not. It's not a martial “art”, it's a martial science. The physical responses are only a part of the entire curriculum.
Like I have said before there is a large portion of psychology as well, far too much for me to mention here (post/pre conflict etc.).

There are loads for Cobatives lads that train clinch and groundwork to a very high standard. Look at Lee Morrison, he specializes in “the clinch”. Some CQC guys love the clinch, some take a different approach (hah:) ). Some of them go into the ring-just not my cup of tea. Don't think that for one minute this is all “theoretical training”. Just look at Geoff Thompson's Animal Day. I would doubt most MMA guys bring it up to that level, don't believe me? Why don't you go on one and see for yourself?. Also, don't think that some of the combatives guys don't train as hard as some of the MMA guys – just have a look at some of the guys on GT's forum.

I'm not sure where you are basing your knowledge from. A couple of posts here? That's not enough to be able to understand the methods of CQC or anything for that matter. If you want to say it's not usable (even though it's been proven in REAL combat) at least take some time, and do some proper research, examine some of the principles and methods. If you still think is krud – then fair enough, but at least you are then looking at it empirically. Rather than making some inaccurate statements on what you "think" you know.

That's why MMA guys dismiss CQC, 'cause they no very little about it, and that they have a very closed mind. Which is fine...I would never want to train any MMA guys anyway. I'm not interested in “sporting activity”. I guess that's why there are so many CQC guys who dismiss MMA. (not me personally if it has something to offer I'll use it)

Peace,

B.

judomick

Baggio, Tim Murphy posted a video of the u.s militarys r.b.s.d training which was basically mma with clothes on (bjj, judo, wrestling and thai) what are your opinions of this approach

IMO good RBSD training is mma, with the odd session playing around with knives, sticks etc (best weapons training i have seen was the dog brothers)

anecdotal, was working last night guy rushed me and punched the back of my head from behind i turned clinched armdragged and choked him he came around and realised he should go home, all physical movements were pretty much exactly the same as a regular training session in the gym (except he peed himself)

id would use this anytime before id start groin shots which tbh are hit andm miss or shreddering, eye jabbing etc which are not 100% effective whereas a choke is

Roper

judomick wrote:

all physical movements were pretty much exactly the same as a regular training session in the gym (except he peed himself)

In the gym they sh1t themselves?

Baggio,
just to hit on Mick Coups point, combatives doesn't sound like a delivery system to me. It sounds like some techniques to be incorporated into a delivery system. So a Judo scarf hold can become eye jab city, or a boxers right hook can become right open hand slap with some modifications. This was always the way I viewed combatives or dirty shots like this TBH until people on here came out with it as a system. It really doesn't sound like a system. It sounds like there are systems that use it as an add-on to their training. I've asked this before and didn't get an answer, so I'm not really expecting one this time: What's you system for the delivery of these techniques?

Cheers,
Barry

judomick

i said the same thing on another thread combatives are add ons, supplementary techniques imo, boxing seemed to be the delivery system agreed upon yet im not sure how many rbsd people train boxing,

i think Millionaire said it best when he said he trains thai 95% and rbsd 5%


Roper (except he peed himself) if this was the case in the gym we would all roll in huggies

blondie83

Well....lots of arguments coming up here which I'm not going to bother getting into. I'll just say that I'm a girl, I train Bujinkan and I love it

FiannaGym.com

Baggio, what I said was "I think alot of MMA guys would say..." and went on to answer your question. Unfortunately, this thread decended into a self-victimisation thread like they so often do when methods of combatives / TMA are questioned.

Peace

Baggio...

JM,

Good talking to you again.

Unfortunately broadband is not available down here so I can't download that clip. So I can't really comment on it. Pity, I'd love to see it. Again don't think that I'm saying that MMA is not functional or can't be used in the street. But I don't think it's necessarily the most efficient approach (for my skills anyway). Cestari loves the choke it's a big part of his game and many other CQC guys. But not mine...So don't think that it's not used in Combatives, it is.

For some reason you guys think that CQC is a series of “dirty shots”. It's not at all, it's a small part of it. As Mick said it's more of an area to “focus” ones training. The system is run by concepts and strategy's as a opposed to specifics. Slightly like a MMA match fight. What I mean by that is. You may have an all round strategy for the win. But it wont run like – He does A, then you do B etc. We all know that stuff wont work.

Glad you were not hurt last night BTW.
Everything depends on the situation – there are no specifics. If I had been in a clinch with some one. I might have started to Head Butt (constantly). But it depends on the dynamics and position at the time, I can't really say for sure. But the head butt is only a tool to get them into the correct range before I return to the primary weapon – which is striking repeatedly to the head with a heel palm. While “indexing” with my other hand. We don't “hunt” for targets like the groin per se, it wastes too much time and can put you in a bad position, if it's there, I'll take it if its tactically sound to do so. If I was in a bear hug from behind. Then I might try a groin grab (and not let go), then moving on to something else (now I'm using the bear hug as an example – chances of some trying to put me in a bear hug are negligible). But hopefully you will see what I'm trying to get at.

Barry,
What do you mean exactly when you say “delivery system”? Please explain and I'll happily give you an answer.

judomick

blondie83 wrote:

Well....lots of arguments coming up here which I'm not going to bother getting into. I'll just say that I'm a girl, I train Bujinkan and I love it

Thats awesome, we all train for the same reason

Baggio...

Fianna,

Same for me...“that's how a lot of CQC guys view MMA”. It's only a thread, I'm not taking it personally, are you?

Peace..

JM, blondie,
Same for me...I train 'cause I love it.