Irritating 1/2 party hand

NickyOD

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($302.38)
Button ($201.75)
Hero ($237.25)
BB ($353.49)
UTG ($348.94)
MP ($181.29)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, A. Hero posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, CO raises to $8, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $24, 1 fold, CO calls $17.

Flop: ($52) 9, 2, 3(2 players)
Hero bets $30, CO raises to $60, Hero calls $30.

Turn: ($172) J(2 players)
Hero checks, CO calls $217.38 (All-In),

Hero ????

fuzzbox

call

Waylander

Think I'd fold here, but hard to say without knowledge of the villain. Initial reaction was he also had AA or maybe KK. But now I am thinking he could have JJ or 99 in the hole.

ollyk1

I'm calling unless I know something about the CO not stated.

karlh

call call call

kevthecelt

the min raise on the flop is not nice, i smell a set of nines

Hectorjelly

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NickyOD

The party poker patented ridiculous all in with the nuts move gets me every mother****ing time.

He had pocket jack

marius

why not push after the min raise? Why give villian another card?
I call.....

NickyOD

marius wrote:

why not push after the min raise? Why give villian another card?
I call.....

because I was sure I was miles ahead so the plan was to let him pot commit himself on the turn. Unfortunately he caught his 2 outer.

fuzzbox

NickyOD wrote:

The party poker patented ridiculous all in with the nuts move gets me every mother****ing time.

He had pocket jack

He bet 217 into 172 ... hardly a ridiculous overbet.
Tough luck that he had JJ. He loses in the long run with his play here.

Lafortezza

Nicky, what settings did you use on the converter to make it look so pretty?

NickyOD

lafortezza wrote:

Nicky, what settings did you use on the converter to make it look so pretty?

I just used the default settings of the FTR converter.

ChipLdr

Sorry nicky but i feel if you dont reraise his flop raise and then call an all in on the turn its just asking for trouble.

As you mentioned, you think you're way ahead on flop and want to pot commit him. Well he reraised thus showing he had a powerful hand(over pair to the board) so i think you should've reraised him and put him to a decision.

What range of hands do you put him on with his reraise. QQ/KK/99? because if you're trying to set the trap on the flop and a K or Q hits on turn would these be scare cards?If so i dont see the point in trapping.

The guy obviously knows you must have a stong hand after your SB reraise and i feel he is testing the water and hoping your flop bet is a continuation bet with AK/TT or worse.

If you reraise him on the flop he's got to put you on AA KK and will fold.If he calls then so be it and he hits his J and you lose your money but make him pay big for that mistake.

By you just flat calling his reraise he gets a "cheaper" card than he should've.

Hectorjelly

ChipLdr wrote:

Sorry nicky but i feel if you dont reraise his flop raise and then call an all in on the turn its just asking for trouble.

As you mentioned, you think you're way ahead on flop and want to pot commit him. Well he reraised thus showing he had a powerful hand(over pair to the board) so i think you should've reraised him and put him to a decision.

What range of hands do you put him on with his reraise. QQ/KK/99? because if you're trying to set the trap on the flop and a K or Q hits on turn would these be scare cards?If so i dont see the point in trapping.

The guy obviously knows you must have a stong hand after your SB reraise and i feel he is testing the water and hoping your flop bet is a continuation bet with AK/TT or worse.

If you reraise him on the flop he's got to put you on AA KK and will fold.If he calls then so be it and he hits his J and you lose your money but make him pay big for that mistake.

By you just flat calling his reraise he gets a "cheaper" card than he should've.

pushing here is ok but flat calling is better, for reasons explained on this forum about 4 times a week. This is a similar spot to the AT hand, if you three bet AA on the flop you get stacked by sets, and give JJ TT QQ KK a chance to get away from the hand. Given the dry flop its likely one of you has two outs so there is no need to protect your hand. Just call and push over (or call) his bet. This also gives him a chance to bluff, if he is bluffing.

I just reread your post and you have made substantial errors in thinking. You dont want JJ to fold. Your thinking would only make sense if JJ is chk folding once you call the min reraise, which it never is

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

He bet 150 into 172 ... hardly a ridiculous overbet.
Tough luck that he had JJ. He loses in the long run with his play here.

I think you played it well.

fuzzbox

Did hero only have 150 left then ... smart guy?

ChipLdr

Hectorjelly wrote:

pushing here is ok but flat calling is better, for reasons
explained on this forum about 4 times a week. This is a similar spot to the AT
hand, if you three bet AA on the flop you get stacked by sets, and give JJ TT
QQ KK a chance to get away from the hand. Given the dry flop its likely one of
you has two outs so there is no need to protect your hand. Just call and push
over (or call) his bet. This also gives him a chance to bluff, if he is
bluffing.

I just reread your post and you have made substantial errors in thinking. You
dont want JJ to fold. Your thinking would only make sense if JJ is chk folding
once you call the min reraise, which it never is

I think i've explained myself wrong.Of course we dont want JJ to fold but we also
should charge big for the turn card. We dont know if he has /TT/JJ/QQ/KK or of course 99, and if one of these cards appear on the turn should we still assume that we're ahead.

If we reraise on the flop and he has 99 he'll push and we wont commit all our
stack but by flat calling are we not running the risk of giving cheap cards.Its
exactly what happened in this hand and although you will win it most times why
bother making it so cheap? There's still the big probability that villian does
not fold to a 3 bet on the flop as he still holds an overpair.

In this example if a K/Q comes the betting might dry up as the turn card would
most likely be checked(unless he represents again) and he'll see a free river too and wont call a river bet unless he's winning.

The villian can only realistically have these hands 99/TT/JJ/QQ/KK

JJ is still a tough fold here to a player in position as he's shown he's not
afraid of raising your flop bet.If he folds we win and if he calls he's making a terrible mistake and he gets lucky but make him PAY for that mistake.

NickyOD

The reason you don't reraise the flop is because even an average player should be capable of folding TT-QQ. I've shown a lot of strength re-raising preflop from the small blind. If I re re reraise the flop even the minimum I'm making it very easy for him to fold. Smooth calling is far and aawy the most profitable line.

fuzzbox

ChipLdr wrote:

I think i've explained myself wrong.Of course we dont want JJ to fold but we also
should charge big for the turn card. We dont know if he has /TT/JJ/QQ/KK or of course 99, and if one of these cards appear on the turn should we still assume that we're ahead.

If we reraise on the flop and he has 99 he'll push and we wont commit all our
stack but by flat calling are we not running the risk of giving cheap cards.Its
exactly what happened in this hand and although you will win it most times why
bother making it so cheap? There's still the big probability that villian does
not fold to a 3 bet on the flop as he still holds an overpair.

In this example if a K/Q comes the betting might dry up as the turn card would
most likely be checked(unless he represents again) and he'll see a free river too and wont call a river bet unless he's winning.

The villian can only realistically have these hands 99/TT/JJ/QQ/KK

JJ is still a tough fold here to a player in position as he's shown he's not
afraid of raising your flop bet.If he folds we win and if he calls he's making a terrible mistake and he gets lucky but make him PAY for that mistake.

Chip, you need to think more about this. Its about the long run. We want to maximize our gain in the long term (which includes this hand), and give our opponent every chance to make as big a mistake as possible.
Calling, is superior to 3-betting the flop in this regard. Our opponent only has 2 outs (most likely), or we only have 2 outs.

Since the number of outs is very small, the chances of an outdraw either way are small, and we are going broke on this hand no matter what, the objective is to make the most from worse hands and bluffs. Villain has paid a pot sized bet to try to draw against us, giving himself 2:1 on a 22:1 shot, which is pretty atrocious odds. If he will fire again on the turn for the rest of his stack, then we should let him.
If we come over the top, then his calling range is much narrower (99/KK most likely, and maybe QQ). We give him a chance to get away from such hands as TT/JJ.

Do you get it?

Hectorjelly

ChipLdr wrote:

If we reraise on the flop and he has 99 he'll push and we wont commit all our
stack but by flat calling are we not running the risk of giving cheap cards

??? If we reraise on the flop we are basically all in, and the villain has already contributed 60 on the flop, which is more than was in the pot preflop so its not exactly cheap

MrPillowTalk

Play looks fine to me, I probably dont flat call the min raise but thats just me, any other card except a jack and your probably still going to get paid so just bad luck.