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Failure To Stop When Required By The Gardai

  • 25-05-2006 3:14pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Ok we all know the recent case of the runaway bus driver who failed to stop for the gardai. He was charged with dangerous driving.

    The current penalty for failing to stop for the gardai (Section 109 Road Traffic Act 1961) is dealt with under Section 102 The Road Traffic Act 1961, the general penalty.

    That is,
    First offence Fine of up to 800 euro (usually 50-250 euro, district court judges, i know!!)
    Second offence Fine of up to 1500 euro
    Third offence Fine of up to 1500 euro and 3 months imprisonment.

    Also penalty points 2 and 5 if contested.

    Now seeing as the amount of garda pursuits are on the up with regular violence and car rammings occuring should the penalty for failing to stop for the gardai be increased.

    Now i dont mean people who dont see a garda (standing on the road) signalling for them to pull over. I mean people who actively go out to engage in pursuits (joyriders) and if signalled to pull over will no cooperate with gardai.

    Also people who take the chance of outrunning the gardai because they are drunk/dirving without insurance/have stolen a car/are in possession of drugs/just burgled a house/robbed a bank etc.

    Only rarely are they reported in the media but on average id say 50-100 incidents of pursuits per week occur throughout the country.

    Around the border regions cars regularly make a dash for the border failing to stop and driving dangerously. Gardai cannot cross over and follow them, and the PSNI cannot act as the offence did not occur in their jurisdiction.

    In some parts of Dublin (west and north) gardai will be slow to respond to joy riders for fear of getting rammed as it is getting very common, injuring gardai and putting valuable patrol cars out of action.

    Discuss.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Chief--- wrote:
    Now seeing as the amount of garda pursuits are on the up with regular violence and car rammings occuring should the penalty for failing to stop for the gardai be increased.

    No in my opinion, as the "innocent" member of the public who fails to see the Garda Stopping him/her will suffer under the new system. You cannot have a two tier system.
    Chief--- wrote:
    Also people who take the chance of outrunning the gardai because they are drunk/dirving without insurance/have stolen a car/are in possession of drugs/just burgled a house/robbed a bank etc.

    These people, in my opinion, are not going to stop anyhow.
    Chief--- wrote:
    Only rarely are they reported in the media but on average id say 50-100 incidents of pursuits per week occur throughout the country.

    True, and how many vicinity only RTC's are occurring while Gardaí are in pursuit or even responding to calls.
    Chief--- wrote:
    Around the border regions cars regularly make a dash for the border failing to stop and driving dangerously. Gardai cannot cross over and follow them, and the PSNI cannot act as the offence did not occur in their jurisdiction.In some parts of Dublin (west and north) gardai will be slow to respond to joy riders for fear of getting rammed as it is getting very common, injuring gardai and putting valuable patrol cars out of action.


    Those who actively engage to incur a pursuit by a marked Garda unit do so for the buzz of it. They will do it knowing there is a good chance they will evade capture as they are aware of the rules of engagement by the Gardaí and will know their "Manor" quite well.

    However, persuing joyriders because they were being goaded, is something I would not like to see Gardaí doing for safety reasons (more to the public and officers than the perps). There are more ways to skin a cat. Up the use of "Stinger", deploy the helicopter more where aviation rules allow.

    I also feel the number of Gardaí who drive response vehicles are not adequately trained enough in high speed pursuits and are therefore a danger to themselves and members of the public which is a major concern for me.

    I would like to see a vast change in the structure of the Gardaí in many ways for their benefit and ours. Interesting post.

    TJ911...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    Chief--- wrote:
    Now i dont mean people who dont see a garda (standing on the road) signalling for them to pull over. I mean people who actively go out to engage in pursuits (joyriders) and if signalled to pull over will no cooperate with gardai.

    Also people who take the chance of outrunning the gardai because they are drunk/dirving without insurance/have stolen a car/are in possession of drugs/just burgled a house/robbed a bank etc.

    I think 2 points are enough. On the offence of failing to stop, that's the penalty. It doesn't discriminate between wether he was dashing for the border with drugs or he just missed the garda hand signal.

    If running for the border, the offender (if caught) will face a multitude of other charges, up in court, and duly punished for them. I think the 2 points will be the least of your worries!
    If you missed the hand signal, you will get away with just the 2 points.

    This seems fair enough to me. The law cannot be too specific, or it will be too difficult to use.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Chief--- wrote:
    Discuss.

    Sounds like a law exam. Scary.

    When it comes to obeying the law you have two kinds of people (IMO)

    1) Innocent/honest/naive people
    2) People who don't give a sh1t about the law, jail or anything the gardaí throw at them

    Most people fall into cat 1. They don't like getting penalty points, pay their fines, tax and insure their cars and generally live law abiding lives. Most laws incidently serve to keep these honest people honest (penalty points, tax acts, smoking bans etc etc).

    For those that fall into cat 2: Joyriders, junkies, drug dealers, bankrobbers, serial killers: No law short of brute force will work. No point fining them, they either dont have money, or if they do no court order will ever recover it. You can send them to jail, but the deterrent effects isn't always so stong, and conviciting them isn't always easy.

    So what do you do? Have oppressive laws (like 3 mths in jail for failing to obey a garda) that will inconvenice further the people in cat 1 while having a marginal impact on cat 2. Have martial law (give the garda an uzi), which will elimitate cat 2 but create even greater problems?

    It isn't the Gardaís fault certain people have no respect for the rule of law, but society's. I think if certain young people had more useful things to be doing they may not be joyriding, if middle class twats were not snorting cocaine there would be a smaller market for drug dealers, etc etc. Maybe then people would also obey the poor Guard!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    I agree more or less with whats being said, the offence of failing to stop would never be the main charge against a 'real' criminal and for the most part, honest people who make a mistake arent prosecuted as it is.

    I think a more viable option would be too add failing to stop or fleeing into the existing laws, for example, a drug dealer who runs for the border should face a charge under Section 15 (X) drugs act 1977, etc. (X not a real section within that law) where the judge can increase a sentence based on this more serious version of the charge.

    As for the border, with Shengen and similar between the Gardai and PSNI it is only a matter of time before a 'hot pursuit' policy is adopted between forces.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    What about the case of "voluntarily failing to stop because the Gardai in question are undercovers in a regular car" ('regular' = not a panda, save for the extra one or two aerials) and a punter wouldn't trust the Grdai to be who they claim they are? Extenuating circumstances? Same villainy so same treatment? ... :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    ambro25 wrote:
    What about the case of "voluntarily failing to stop because the Gardai in question are undercovers in a regular car" ('regular' = not a panda, save for the extra one or two aerials) and a punter wouldn't trust the Grdai to be who they claim they are? Extenuating circumstances? Same villainy so same treatment? ... :confused:

    Ambro,

    I wouldn't stop for anything unless it is a marked Garda car. In my opinion it is not safe to do so as I may become a victim of a carjacking.

    I would contact the local gardaí, or 999 if local number not known, and report the fact that someone is attempting to stop me by whatever means and that I request a marked Garda car to assist me as I fear for my safety, especially if it were at night.

    I am open to correction on this one but I do not think an unmarked Garda car can "stop" another vehicle.


    TJ911...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,935 Mod ✭✭✭✭Turner


    An unmarked car can stop any vehicle but if the car failed to stop a marked car would be brought in if available.

    Alot of garda stations who dont have marked cars (due to low resources) operate solely on unmarked cars.

    Extremely dangerous in wet conditions at traffic accidents. But the funding just isnt there for every station to have marked cars. Many 06 mondeos are put out of action with a few weeks. Its the nature of the job. (generally only in some of the rougher station areas)

    Alot are put out of action due to crashes and rammings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Others here know far more about the RTA than I do, but isn't there a provision which states you do not have to obey a garda unless he is in uniform or provides some other evidence of identification?

    (Not that this is much help when the Sinn Fein lads start dressing up like gardaí..)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    maidhc wrote:
    Others here know far more about the RTA than I do, but isn't there a provision which states you do not have to obey a garda unless he is in uniform or provides some other evidence of identification?

    (Not that this is much help when the Sinn Fein lads start dressing up like gardaí..)

    Its that a member of AGS must be IN UNIFORM to direct traffic.

    The power to stop is for all Gardai and stop/search/seize is covered in dozens of laws. Otherwise the ERU, SDU, etc wouldnt be able to stop cars suspected of carrying guns,bombs, etc. Now that would be a major loophole.

    If you rang the local station and failed to stop you would still be guilty, maybe leniency I suppose or maybe the Gardai would accept but legally, not a defence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    If you rang the local station and failed to stop you would still be guilty, maybe leniency I suppose or maybe the Gardai would accept but legally, not a defence.


    Fair enough, but I will still refuse to stop if it is not a marked up cruiser unless I can establish a uniform through my rear view mirror during daylight hours. Night time, not a hope of me stopping for an unmarked car.

    Cheers...

    TJ911...

    NB* My definition of "unmarked" is an unmarked vehicle without blues & two's fitted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana



    If you rang the local station and failed to stop you would still be guilty, maybe leniency I suppose or maybe the Gardai would accept but legally, not a defence.

    I have seen district court judges accepting this as an excuse, esp in the case night time traffic stops, where FTS has been tacked on to the original speeding etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    RTA 1961:
    111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

    ( a ) is in uniform, or

    ( b ) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    That is very interesting to say the least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    M,
    That applies to checkpoints, how can you wave your ID card at a car 20 metres in front at night?

    Also, I would consider a siren and light as an indication of identity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    M,
    That applies to checkpoints, how can you wave your ID card at a car 20 metres in front at night?

    It doesn't say that expressly though, I guess "request, requirement or demand" suggests oral instructions, but s. 109 states: "A person driving a vehicle in a public place shall stop the vehicle on being so required by a member of the Garda Síochána." I see your point, but it might be an intereting loophole to exploit in future years! :)
    Also, I would consider a siren and light as an indication of identity.

    It is very specific about identity. "Uniform" and "Official ID Card". I presume a court might be willing to accpet a marked garda car as being evidence that the members were in uniform, but an unmarked car I don't know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    maidhc wrote:
    It doesn't say that expressly though, I guess "request, requirement or demand" suggests oral instructions, but s. 109 states: "A person driving a vehicle in a public place shall stop the vehicle on being so required by a member of the Garda Síochána." I see your point, but it might be an intereting loophole to exploit in future years! :)



    It is very specific about identity. "Uniform" and "Official ID Card". I presume a court might be willing to accpet a marked garda car as being evidence that the members were in uniform, but an unmarked car I don't know.

    It also states any other identification. It would depend on the judge I suppose as some come out with very strange decisions and definitions at times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Oh well - when there's a nice big herd of Blues (7+ :eek: ) like this morning down the side of Trinity, at least the question is moot :D

    Re. stopping or not (mostly at night but then again...) - I could hazard that it will depend on what you drive at the time. If it happened to me and I was driving the Scoob, I would stop (I've got an anti car-jacking system fitted + it ain't worth that much anyhow). But if I was driving the MX-5, not a cat's chance (even though it ain't worth that much either ;) ), sirens and strobes or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    M,
    how can you wave your ID card at a car 20 metres in front at night?

    This is my point. You can't, and if there is an unmarked car behind me at night flashing the lights or blowing the horn I cannot tell if the person is in uniform or not.

    I am not prepared to try to look around to specify if there is a uniformed officer trying to stop me and risk having or causing an accident. If they want me to stop then they whistle up a marked vehicle. But in my defence I will also dial, preferably 999 as the conversation is recorded, and stress my fears and request the assistance of an officer as I would be fearing for my safety.

    TJ911...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    Double edged sword lads!!! Don't stop and you get done for failing to stop etc... Do stop and you feel you run the risk of being car jacked, robbed, assaulted....
    Whats your defence when the judge asks why you failed to stop?
    Answer 1. well judge I am a member of one of the feuding drug gangs in West Dublin and I thought I might be shot.
    Answer 2. I am a multi billionaire and was in fear of being kidnapped.

    one of those two answers better apply to you because if not the guards and the judge will take the view that you are nothing but a smart alec and treat you accordingly.

    Think about it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    I accept that, but I have also seen drivers leave leave the district court with their arse on fire and down €500. What I'm saying is why gamble and make life hard? If I was in the crime business I can think of easier ways to get your car and your money than fit a siren and a portable blue light to my car and try and stop people at night. I'll say it again unless personal circumstances exist that put you at risk you are making life hard for yourself by not stopping.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Bond,
    If it was included with a speeding charge then they would have been in uniform and have a marked car, how would you have a defence?

    Trojan,
    You havent given any genuine reason for being in fear for your life, car jacking is not a common event in Ireland so your fear is not justified. I am also not aware of a single incident involving criminals using false siren and police lights along with additional radio antennas. This isnt Urban Myth or some other hollywood movie. Besides that, I dont think your appreciate how busy marked patrol cars are, you seem to think that we can simple radio for a amrked car to come along and they wont be leaving calls waiting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Bond,
    If it was included with a speeding charge then they would have been in uniform and have a marked car, how would you have a defence?

    Most of the cases I have heard of refer to unmarked cars used to catch speeders late at night. Normally a judge would accept such a defence esp if the accused was female.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Trojan,
    You havent given any genuine reason for being in fear for your life, car jacking is not a common event in Ireland so your fear is not justified.

    There are only 2 ways to steal a car successfully:
    1) Break into someones house.
    2) Carjack it.

    If I had a desirable car I would be very cautious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭dermot_sheehan


    My family's car was stolen twice, and neither of these methods were used. It was a 1991 model though in 1993, it was however quite high spec (imported Acura Vigor).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    gabhain7 wrote:
    My family's car was stolen twice, and neither of these methods were used. It was a 1991 model though in 1993, it was however quite high spec (imported Acura Vigor).

    I was really referring to cars introduced in more recent years. You really will have your work cut out trying to break into and start a car with no obvious door locks or ignition.

    e.g. Passat/Lexus IS/forthcoming toyotas.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Trojan,
    You havent given any genuine reason for being in fear for your life, car jacking is not a common event in Ireland so your fear is not justified. I am also not aware of a single incident involving criminals using false siren and police lights along with additional radio antennas. This isnt Urban Myth or some other hollywood movie.

    First off I never said I feared for my life, it was my safety and second I defined an unmarked car as an unmarked car not fitted with blues and two's. Therefore an unmarked car with blues and twos, to me, would not be an "unmarked" car as the blues and two's make it identifiable.

    What I am saying is I will not stop my car during darkness hours, or daylight if I cannot establish if an officer is requiring me to stop, for an umarked car that is flashing the headlights and sounding the horn behind me.

    I will stop if there are visable strobes coming from the front grid and I can clearly hear a two tone. Carjacking may not be common in Ireland but it happens and I don't take any risks when it comes to personal safety.
    Besides that, I dont think your appreciate how busy marked patrol cars are, you seem to think that we can simple radio for a amrked car to come along and they wont be leaving calls waiting.

    I would like to think that a person calling 999 to state there is a car immediately behind him, possibly driving dangerously, flashing the lights and sounding the horn and it cannot be identified as a Garda car and the person fears for his safety that the call would be deemed a priority and a marked car despatched immediately.
    TJ911...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    All Garda cars have sirens fitted and they are all supposed to carry detacheable lights. Most now have the stick on ones that are attached to the window and dash

    And no vehicle beeping the horn and flashing their lights does not warrent an immediate 999 response. Theres no reason to believe that someones life is in danger. But again, the chances of this person (say they arent police) intending to hijack you is non-existent. Its more plausable that you have not got your lights on or a soon to be flat tyre for example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    And no vehicle beeping the horn and flashing their lights does not warrent an immediate 999 response. Theres no reason to believe that someones life is in danger.

    Is it not sufficient to believe your property is in danger. Eg. if my house goes up on fire I will ring 999, despite the fact it may be empty and situated in a place where no one can plausably be injured.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    Trojan911 wrote:
    NB* My definition of "unmarked" is an unmarked vehicle without blues & two's fitted.
    This defenition doesn't really make much sense in this context. All garda cars (marked and umarked) have sirens and strobes and no garda car will ever try to stop you by flashing his lights and beeping the horn.

    You originally used the term "unmarked car" in the context of unmarked Garda cars.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    All Garda cars have sirens fitted and they are all supposed to carry detacheable lights. Most now have the stick on ones that are attached to the window and dash

    I hear what you are saying but tell that to three independant friends of mine who were stopped by unmarked cars at night at different times/dates in the last six months by unmarked cars who all were flashed and beeped i.e. no two's and blues. They stopped but were not happy about the way they were stopped and told the officers so.

    TJ911...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Trojan911 wrote:
    I hear what you are saying but tell that to three independant friends of mine who were stopped by unmarked cars at night at different times/dates in the last six months by unmarked cars who all were flashed and beeped i.e. no two's and blues. They stopped but were not happy about the way they were stopped and told the officers so.

    TJ911...

    Im not getting drawn into a debate about stories uttered by biased 3rd parties and note, all 3 were by Gardai not serial killers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,956 ✭✭✭layke


    Bond,
    If it was included with a speeding charge then they would have been in uniform and have a marked car, how would you have a defence?

    Trojan,
    You havent given any genuine reason for being in fear for your life, car jacking is not a common event in Ireland so your fear is not justified.

    I'll give you one, in 2000 my mates dad got pulled over by an unmarked car with a blue flasy siren thing. When the plain clothes cop came up to the rolled down window he maced him, then punched him in the face with a knuckle duster. The car was stolen and then used in a robbery down the country. The car was a scooby wrx so they obviously wanted something quick.

    It happens not everything makes the papers.

    NOW, I have strong personal problem with stopping myself. As a car modder, my car is constantly getting pulled over because of the look. It doesn't matter if i'm speeding or not, I drive down a road next thing there are two fog lights about 2 inches from my rear bumper. Is this a cop? Is it a carjacker? I can't tell because the f**ker is blinding me in my mirrors.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    layke wrote:
    I'll give you one, in 2000 my mates dad got pulled over by an unmarked car with a blue flasy siren thing. When the plain clothes cop came up to the rolled down window he maced him, then punched him in the face with a knuckle duster. The car was stolen and then used in a robbery down the country. The car was a scooby wrx so they obviously wanted something quick.

    It happens not everything makes the papers.

    NOW, I have strong personal problem with stopping myself. As a car modder, my car is constantly getting pulled over because of the look. It doesn't matter if i'm speeding or not, I drive down a road next thing there are two fog lights about 2 inches from my rear bumper. Is this a cop? Is it a carjacker? I can't tell because the f**ker is blinding me in my mirrors.

    3rd or is that a 4th party story? Not getting into that crap.

    And little boy racers break many many RTA laws in my experience but seeing as you are constantly pulled over yet have no 1st hand knowledge of car jacking that proves my point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    3rd or is that a 4th party story? Not getting into that crap.
    I agree. Unless it happened to you first hand, don't expect people to believe what is by now a well exaggerated skewed version of what may or may not have happened.

    There is a reason hear-say isn't allowed in a court of law....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc


    cast_iron wrote:
    I agree. Unless it happened to you first hand, don't expect people to believe what is by now a well exaggerated skewed version of what may or may not have happened.

    There is a reason hear-say isn't allowed in a court of law....

    Carjacking does happen. Lets not be flatearthers about it.

    There are also well and good reasons for a motorist to be fearful of being stopped and assaulted. It happens...e.g. Charlie Chawke almost got killed when bringing the takings of his pub to the bank.

    Most importantly, it appears you are under absolutely no obligation to stop for anything other than a clearly identifiable Garda vehicle, and even then the legislation possibly requires it be a "marked" one with Garda livery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    maidhc wrote:
    Carjacking does happen. Lets not be flatearthers about it.

    There are also well and good reasons for a motorist to be fearful of being stopped and assaulted. It happens...e.g. Charlie Chawke almost got killed when bringing the takings of his pub to the bank.

    Most importantly, it appears you are under absolutely no obligation to stop for anything other than a clearly identifiable Garda vehicle, and even then the legislation possibly requires it be a "marked" one with Garda livery.

    Dont know where this is coming from, Charlie Chalk wasnt in his car and neither were the robbers. No cars were involved and it wasnt carjacking in any sense, it was an armed robbery.

    As for stopping, you seem to have ignored your own post, refresh:
    produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

    A, your required to ask for ID, theres no obligation (granted its common sense to ID yourself when possible) and B, a siren and flashing blue light (which is only available to emergency services) to me signifies reasonable identification at the time. Shouting "Gardai" could also work.

    Put it all another way, would a judge reasonable believe that you genuinely didnt think it was Gardai? Remember that not a single person here has even been able to give a report of carjackers using false siren and blue light.

    Carjacking happens, but its by way of a weapon or physical force while you sit at traffic lights, etc. Not a carefully planned operation involving fake Gardai and squad cars. The only example I know of involving fake Gardai was up near the border and they setup a checkpoint to steal a cigarette consignment and it was the old reliables.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭maidhc



    As for stopping, you seem to have ignored your own post, refresh:
    produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

    "as prescribed" means a minister of government must make a statutory instrument prescribing other forms of ID. It is a common phrase in legislation, and this is what it means. A judge nor garda cannot prescribe something, for this would be tantamount to making legislation and as such unconstitutional.

    Was Charlie Chawke not shot in his S Class merc?

    Either way it is irrelevant, there are many people who would happly stop for a car in garda livery, but wouldn't for an unmarked car, my mother being one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Never to miss an opportunity to throw a spanner in the works, ambro25 does a mighty quick (under 2 mins) eBay search and voilà.

    ...just by way of example.

    Note that I'm not saying that car-jacking (or lorry-jacking, this practice is reasonably well established in the UK) it is an endemic problem in Ireland and every Tom, Dick and Paddy should develop supra-paranoid (spider? :D) senses about car-jacking and car jackers' sophistication, but you do have to consider that 'perhaps' such Laws as prescribed were designed in an age where a car thief (which most probably goes back to Antique Egypt with stealing horse-driven carts I'm sure ;) ) could reasonably easily get a-hold of his hoard wihout having to duff the driver up, either out of his car or in his bed?

    So sophisticated have immobilizers and car security become, that it's now expectedly quite hard to nick a car. However, speed is still of the essence for this type of malarkey - so what's the 'fastest' way to do it? Why, to get the keys of course! And what's the 'safest' way to do it? To stop someone who is lawfully using the car, so the thieves don't have to break in, in the middle of a neighbourhood etc.

    Just don't discount logic, and please don't pander to the lullifying media with their usual "it will never happen here" mantra. Ireland is a small country but it's now very rich and there's a hell of lot of valuable metal on wheels - especially in Dublin. And a big-@ss harbour with ships coming in and out day and night. And still a hell of a lot of demand in former Eastern Bloc countries, RHD or not.

    Anyhow, enough of my ramblings now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    cast_iron wrote:
    no garda car will ever try to stop you by flashing his lights and beeping the horn.

    Incorrect.

    Met a friend of mine for coffee yesterday and she is a serving Garda who informed me she occasionly has no choice but to stop a car using the car horn and headlights as not all unmarked cars are fitted with blues & two's, they should be she says, but not all are. This is also due to the lack of vehicles available to them. So it does happen (not that I needed a serving Garda to verify it as my friends already have).

    TJ911...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    How convenient Trojan however as a seving Garda in Dublin I have never witnessed a car without a siren, they are installed prior to being deployed, I fail to see how a car could not have one.

    Ambrose,
    You can buy the disco lights in pounds shops as well but seriously, they are not the same and shouldnt be able to fool people. The one on ebay does all the colours as well, emergency services is blue, no red or white. Plus no siren.

    Besides all that, there is no example in this country (in fact rare worldwide) where people have carjacked using this method, as stated already, they will rob your house and take the car there and then or simple pull you out at traffic lights using simple force and threats. The only example of fake Gardai I have encountered have been drunks trying to get into bars and again, the IRA but that wasnt carjacking and they didnt pull people over. Another disadvantage would be a kitted car with lights, etc and the fact that the crime would be reported immediately and you would be able to identify them. By robbing your house they have hours before its reported and no witnesses. Its also a lesser crime, criminals do think about possible sentences when they commit crime.

    If your going to say you wouldnt pull over for fear of car-jacking then I presume you have a nuclear fallout shelter in the garden, anti-venim in your first aid kit and carry a big lump of meat at all times in case the beast of Skegness decides to visit your neighbourhood.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    How convenient Trojan however as a seving Garda in Dublin I have never witnessed a car without a siren, they are installed prior to being deployed, I fail to see how a car could not have one.

    Very convenient (you should see her in uniform, Purrrrrrrrrrrr)............ ;)

    TJ911...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    You can buy the disco lights in pounds shops as well but seriously, they are not the same and shouldnt be able to fool people.
    The one on ebay does all the colours as well, emergency services is blue, no red or white. Plus no siren.

    You don't need to be an electrician to rig mono-colour (blue) bigger bulbs instead. Look, that was just to provide an example that if one does want to 'impersonate' an unmarked G-car as sugegsted/alluded to in the thread, it's easy to do. Nothing more. And no, I'll not provide wiring diagrams either, so don't ask :D
    Its also a lesser crime, criminals do think about possible sentences when they commit crime.

    Not with you there, sorry: are you saying it's a lesser crime for a perp to break into my house (while my family and I are in it) to steal my keys than to impersonate a Gardai to carjack me :confused: If that is the case, IMHO and irrespectively of actual Statutes and precedent, there's something wrong about that, somehow.
    If your going to say you wouldnt pull over for fear of car-jacking then I presume you have a nuclear fallout shelter in the garden, anti-venim in your first aid kit and carry a big lump of meat at all times in case the beast of Skegness decides to visit your neighbourhood.

    :D

    Do me the favour of at least considering that not every person drives a blandmobile™, that some cars will attract perps for nefarious purposes (such as the Scoob WRX mentioned earlier, for predictable purposes - incidentally, I do drive a 2,0L Impreza myself) or other reasons such as 'must be nice to go do some donuts and play catch with the G-men in some estate', when it's not either stolen-to-order and/or for parts or just because some are easier to nick/potentially carjack than others (convertibles spring to mind... which is my second car, come to think of it).

    No, I woulnd't pull over at night - so sue me. And to put things in perspective, I have in the past pulled over with no bother during the day for a hand-signalling unmarked (badge held out of the window in my face. Class! I thought they were Starsky & Hutch reincarnated, their red focus was just missing the white stripe :D ), which did not use any sirens and/or blues.

    I'm not paranoid - I just can't help it if they're all after me :D:p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Ambros,
    Burglary carries a lesser sentence than impersonating Gardai AND robbery with possible assault thrown in as well, thats my point.

    Look, no one here has been carjacked, no one here show any evidence of impersonation and carjacking taking place. Thats the bottom line. Im blue in the face telling you how cars are stolen, believe me or dont but thats the facts. And I wont sue you I will just arrest you :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Burglary carries a lesser sentence than impersonating Gardai AND robbery with possible assault thrown in as well, thats my point.

    Well, what about burglary 'AND robbery with possible assault thrown in as well' :confused:
    Look, no one here has been carjacked, no one here show any evidence of impersonation and carjacking taking place.

    Quite true, and I don't think anyone in this thread (bar for one extreme example) has made any such assertions. It's just that I, and others in the thread, would just as rather not find the hard way if and when, and basically take reasonable steps to preserve our security in view of perceived risks. Fair enough?
    (note - and no need to remind me that 'fair' and 'The Law' are not bedfellows, btw!)

    And in that context, anyhow - please breathe, no need to get blue in the face, this thread isn't about who's right and who's wrong. :D
    And I wont sue you I will just arrest you :D

    Well, to begin with you'd only be able to do that once I get home, unless you gonna ram me off. That of itself is going to make things interesting in Court, as I will of course have been in fear for my life and there will be records showing a call placed to 999 etc. in addition to due care and diligence exercised on my part, with best endeavours provided to identify my 'suitors'.

    Next, as a law-abiding citizen and generally 'good guy', from habit I enjoy very much 'dialoguing' with law enforcement officers in 'controversial situations' (read: within my rights and being quite well aware of them, and not 'giving in' to attempts at intimidation but giving as good as I get - politely and only if I am right and they are factually wrong and if they push it that bit too far, of course, for I have never minded being 'done' and recognizing/admitting same if I was indeed wrong-doing). So, it will indeed be an occasion to look forward to, should it ever happen :p

    (I think that from now on, every time I'm at a checkpoint and/or stopped, I'm just gonna have to ask: "excuse me Officer, would you be Karlitosway on Boards by any chance?" :D)

    EDITI should add/precise that I don't routinely relish conflictual situations with police officers for whom I have much respect -and not grudgingly-, but I firmly believe that when the occasion is warranted (which is rare, but just so) and if I am likely to be unduly affected adversely, they should be put back in their place. Rant over ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Ambros,
    You sound well and truly like a May day 'legal adviser' from that little rant.

    First off, by your little rant you appear to believe you can get one over on the Gardai when they 'bully you' however I suspect you come out the worse as you dont seem to understand the law nor I suspect, the Gardai's powers and legal authorities in certain situations. Please tell me you have never 'pleaded the fifth' (yes this was stated many times during various MayDays)

    Im not really sure how someone commits burglary, robbery and assault. Burglary and robbery are distinct from eachother and would require a remarkable set of circumstances to involve the same victim and suspect. What you are talking about I would think is aggravated burglary and thats a different ball game from car jacking altogether. In simple terms, burglary is theft and tresspassing, robbery is theft with assault or threats. A happens to property, B happens to people. Burglary and assault is aggravated burglary not robbery.

    Carjacking is robbery of an MPV and as stated, carries more cons and more severe sentence than burglary or simple theft of an MPV. Any crime involving people carries greater risks for the criminal and as such they tend to steer clear (Im generalising of course but robbery is not as common as theft from shops and burglary)

    Now as for the subject, I am aware that people have fears however in this context they are unfounded and do not carry much weight. Too be honest, they sound like weak excuses and I personally think a judge would see them as such.

    Im not saying that carjacking does not happen, what I am saying is that it doesnt happen this way, if you see a blue light and hear a siren, its a Garda. If you see flashing of lights and beeping of horns chances are that you just cut someone off or that they are drawing your attention to something such as no lights on or a flat tyre.

    As for dailing 999, thats not its function, its an emergency number. Asking about Garda patrols is not an emegency, Im not saying you have to jam on but you do need to stop at a reasonable place, if you want to turn into an estate before stopping or ring the local station, well personally I will be understanding about that once the station confirms you rang them but driving for a few miles while talking on your phone is going to result in you being forceable stopped and theres more ways than ramming for that. You will especially be stopped quick if your driving was dangerous and you are heading towards a well known location where your phone call might be about organising a welcoming commitee for me. (Guards have to consider safety as well)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    All that from my jibing back to your jibe :rolleyes: My, my, touchy...
    You sound well and truly like a May day 'legal adviser' from that little rant.

    I genuinely don't know what one of those is, sorry :confused: So I don't really know how to take it/respond.
    First off, by your little rant you appear to believe you can get one over on the Gardai when they 'bully you'

    FYI, (i) I do not 'appear to believe' anything, I only live by the law as do you, noting in passing that your job is to apply it/enforce it in respect of those who don't - so that when I am not transgressing any law but assertions are brought by a Gardai with no factual proof or application of governing/implementing regulations, such as -for instance- allegations of speeding when no measuring equipment was used (not even their own tachometer!), of legal obligation to exchange my EU driving license, of lack of proof of insurance when they've got the green international ins. certificate under their eyes clearly stating 'Ireland' and in date and full effect and I'll pass you some more, you'll excuse me for legitimately defending my bacon and not dropping my kegs because "Oooh it's the Gardai, OMG, OMG!" :rolleyes:

    And (ii) it's not about 'getting over the Gardai'. Note that I have not been intimated/bullied often at all, because I don't as a rule give reasons to be intimidated/bullied. When I have been the most polite, courteous, obliging 'perp they've decided to stop because they manifestly don't (or do) like the car or don't like the face, for 15 minutes straight and they're still coming at me with sh1te for no apparent reason, you'll again excuse me if I eventually turn about and start doing some bullying of my own.
    however I suspect you come out the worse as you dont seem to understand the law nor I suspect, the Gardai's powers and legal authorities in certain situations.

    I am not a qualified Gardai and do not specialise in CrimLaw, but I have a legal background, and am well versed in general matters of Law, Regulations/Special Instruments, Practice and Precedent - so while I don't profess to have better legal knowledge than Gardai in some specific matters, and whilst they may indeed have those powers, they are not above the Law. Neither am I. This is and has been my point throughout. As for coming off worse, that's not happened to me in the last 10 years at least. But there's a couple of coppers in the UK, and another in Luxembourg, who have nasty side notes in their personal file.
    Please tell me you have never 'pleaded the fifth' (yes this was stated many times during various MayDays)

    Again, please precise what this means, as I am not familiar with it. I have had the misfortune (and in some cases I'll frankly admit to fortune, actually) of gaining several 'light' convictions in other jurisdictions, for various inconsequential matters in my youth. Nothing worthy of a criminal record, put it that way. I believe anyone who's ever copped points for speeding answers this criteria - that doesn't make them GTA-grade perps.
    Im not really sure how someone commits burglary, robbery and assault. etc.

    Grateful for the precisions about this.
    Now as for the subject, I am aware that people have fears however in this context they are unfounded and do not carry much weight. Too be honest, they sound like weak excuses and I personally think a judge would see them as such.

    Well, that's your opinion, to which you are fuly entitled, as I am to mine. So let's agree to disagree.

    Note that I would never surmise what a Justice is likely to 'see' or think. But that's just me - because I know what I know about legal matters, and more importantly what I don't. I'm glad you feel so qualified as to put yourself under his or her wig ;)
    As for dailing 999, thats not its function, its an emergency number. Asking about Garda patrols is not an emegency etc

    A lot of wrongful assumptions, which I can understand when made by a police officer from 'his side of the fence' with years of training and protocol behind it, but wrongful nonetheless to us 'mere mortals':

    I fully agree, and I'm positive most others will, that asking about Garda patrol is not an emergency, but asking about a car wanting me to pull over with no certainty as to the purpose and legitimacy of its occupants is. I'll have absolutely no problem pulling over for an unmarked with strobes, sirens, Gardai signs on the shelf and sunvisors and Officers in some form of dress. Not so with crew cuts, leather jackets, no strobes and no siren.

    Of course no idiot is going to jam on the brakes the second you flash your headlights or honk your horn and/or if in the middle of the overtaking lane on the M50 (mind you, this being Ireland... only joking :D) etc. but what is a reasonable place to you may not be the same as a reasonable place to me: you might want to stop me on the M50 and (perhaps - dunno - supposing) expect me to stop on the hard shoudler, but I ain't stopping until I'm out the next junction and off the exit ramp. Is that reasonable to you? And that's just one example, I reasonably certain there are about as many circumstances as there are individual cases.

    Moreover, considering I don't live anywhere near such 'well known locations' and my driving style is passive in the extreme (those CS/evasive driving tutorials I had to undergo years back are finally paying off in Dublin :D), and certainly wouldn't with a honking/flashing car behind at me at night (if anything I'd slow down to let them pass), I'll consider the rest moot and myself safe :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    A MayDay legal adviser is someone that on Mayday went around with exactly that written on their tshirts telling people their rights and what the Gardai could or could not do. The funny part was they didnt know their ass from their elbow, thats why it sticks in my mind. That and the fifth were jokes.

    As for the judge, I feel qualified to make an educated guess because I have had cases and seen hundreds of cases in front of just about all Dublin based Judges for dozens of various reasons. I dont state for a fact because they are human and can make surprise decisions but as I am aware of the law and the various requirements along with common sense I usually can see where they are heading. In fact, you can tell by the judge how a case is going to go halfway through it. Hamill for example will crucify everyone even when you are right. Dunne wouldnt raise his voice is there was an earthquake and Coughlin doesnt need Garda evidence, your bloody well guilty in his eyes whereas Watkins has the opposite approach, unless the high court says differently, your innocent no matter what.

    As for stopping, no I would consider the hard shoulder being designated for cars to stop and being well lit in a reasonable busy area too be fine to stop.

    As for certain areas, not everything is personal, that was my point. Gardai have to take action based on scenarios and actions that you may not even be aware of.

    As for your previous and complaints, its of no real interest to me. It does not change my opinion.

    Now Im off to plan for the big trial. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,579 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Trojan911 wrote:
    Very convenient (you should see her in uniform, Purrrrrrrrrrrr)............ ;)
    We have your angle sussed now Walter. :p
    ambro25 wrote:
    Not with you there, sorry: are you saying it's a lesser crime for a perp to break into my house (while my family and I are in it) to steal my keys than to impersonate a Gardai to carjack me
    Doesn't have to. Fishing rod with a magnet through the letter box for the keys on the hall table.
    Burglary carries a lesser sentence than impersonating Gardai AND robbery with possible assault thrown in as well, thats my point.
    Em, doesn't robbery pretty much trump any assault charge?
    Look, no one here has been carjacked
    Indeed, before the recent incidents along the border, I only know of the incident in Fairview last year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    Victor wrote:
    Fishing rod with a magnet through the letter box for the keys on the hall table.

    Is anybody still leaving keys on the hall table these days? :eek: ;)
    As for stopping, no I would consider the hard shoulder being designated for cars to stop and being well lit in a reasonable busy area too be fine to stop.

    Well, I only hope that you're an exception, because as for 'estimating what is a reasonable distance/place to stop/etc. based on the circumstances', the hard shoulder is one of the, if not the, most dangerous for any car to park for any length of time at any time of the day and *especially* at night.

    The hard shoulder is designated for cars to stop in an emergency, I don't believe stopping because a Gardai wants me to is an emergency. Or is it?

    Guess you've not been driving that long and/or attended much hard-shoulder accidents (I've done my share with EMS back in the day) and that the general lack of, and relatively only recent introduction of, motorways in Ireland shows some here :p;)
    As for your previous and complaints, its of no real interest to me. It does not change my opinion.

    Not meant to be 'of interest' to you, but meant to support my stance as described in respect of some encounters. I'm truly sorry if those *rare enough thankfully* do not depict Gardai in their best light. No need to put your head in the sand about it either - it did and still does happen just so, again rarely enough thankfully.

    Now, -joke or not joke, I don't particularly care- that you decide to brand me a "May Day adviser" because as and when such occasions arise I decide (after much patience expended) to challenge the Gardai's knowledge of the Statutes and defend my bacon, is your prerogative. It just doesn't strike me that I'm being the fool in doing so. :p

    On these words, have a nice one :)


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