How much is fine for landlord not being registered?

whizzbang

My landlord wanted to up our rent so I suggested she give me her PPI number so I could claim tax relief. I knew the place wasn't registered on prtb.ie so I thought this would scare her off but she accepted. I mentioned that this might have tax implications for her to try and push the point but she got snotty and said that all her affairs were in order and everything was declared. I was a bit concerned that she might be setting herself up for a fall so I suggested she rang the tax office and see what she had to do to allow us to claim tax relief. She said she would. That was last week.

Just now my flat mate recieved a call from her saying she wasn't registered and we were not to claim tax relief otherwise it could cause her as "serious fine". She needed out PPI numbers so she could register.

As far as I am concerned this means we are not down 300 odd Euro each because she made a mistake by not registering. I am going to ask her not to raise the rent to allow us to get back the 300 we can't claim. As far as I am concerned this is being very reasonable and we should really just claim the 300 off her.

Anyway, I would like to know what is the downside for her if we do try and make a claim for last year. This will help me see how much I can push the "Please don't raise rent" argument.

any info would be appreciated!

Thanks!

rambler

She may get off with no fine, if she were to talk to the Tax office saying she wishes to register, think it only came in last year where it became law for landlords to register

whizzbang

rambler wrote:

She may get off with no fine, if she were to talk to the Tax office saying she wishes to register, think it only came in last year where it became law for landlords to register

ahh ok, I believe she declared all the income and so her tax should be ok. I wonder where she got the "serious fine" idea from? Still, I can appeal to her good nature by pointing out we are 300 euro down through no fault of our own... *hint* *hint*

Or can we claim for last year if she just registers now?

FillSpectre

Are you mixing up two things?

TAX and registration are seperate. The registration is with the local council for inspection. Tax payment is not connected to registration AFAIK. Not sure what the fines are but non payment of tax is payment of all owed taxes and interest on that money and possibly a fine.

She may be paying her taxes hence getting annoyed at the suggestion by you she was not. Now she just might not realised she needed to be registered also as it is relatively new

Hagar

Personally I think she has a hard neck telling you not to register. It's costing you money. If she doesn't come to some sort of arrangement regarding the rent which offsets this go ahead and register. Her tax position is her problem. Be aware that the property you are living in may not be the only property she is renting out so her exposure could be serious. This could give you some bargaining power. Good luck.

iluvbeer

I was in a similar predicament earlier this year when I tried to claim rent relief for the year 2004, the landlord had not registered the property until 2005.

We came to the arrangement that we would not claim for that period but we would deduct the value of the relief off from the next months rent. He was made aware that we would make the claim if he didn't co-operate, as we are legally entitled to do.

At the end of the day, you are able to do this and the landlords affairs should have no implication on whether you can or cannot claim the relief. They have no right to tell you not to make the claim. Perhaps a reduction in rent for the amount you would get back in tax credits?

whizzbang

FillSpectre wrote:

Are you mixing up two things?

TAX and registration are seperate. The registration is with the local council for inspection. Tax payment is not connected to registration AFAIK. Not sure what the fines are but non payment of tax is payment of all owed taxes and interest on that money and possibly a fine.

She may be paying her taxes hence getting annoyed at the suggestion by you she was not. Now she just might not realised she needed to be registered also as it is relatively new

as far as I know her tax was in order but she was not registered.

whizzbang

iluvbeer wrote:

We came to the arrangement that we would not claim for that period but we would deduct the value of the relief off from the next months rent. He was made aware that we would make the claim if he didn't co-operate, as we are legally entitled to do.

Yep, I think I will try and go for something like this. Thanks!

whizzbang

Hagar wrote:

Be aware that the property you are living in may not be the only property she is renting out so her exposure could be serious. This could give you some bargaining power. Good luck.

Cheers, I think she only has the one place, I rang her the other day after not talking to her for the year and said "Hi, I'm renting your appartment" to see if she said "Which one?" But she didn't so I guess it is just the one.

Lex Luthor

have a look at http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm

if the landlord was registered you would have received a confirmation letter to say so.

Fine for not registering is €3000 and/or 6 months in prison.

whizzbang

Lex Luthor wrote:

have a look at http://www.prtb.ie/pubregfaq.htm

if the landlord was registered you would have received a confirmation letter to say so.

ahh ok, I just looke dup the appartment address on the spreadsheets on that web site. I'll look out for that in the future.

Thanks!

FillSpectre

whizzbang wrote:

as far as I know her tax was in order but she was not registered.

Then she shouldn't worry. The tax people aren't going to tell the other people she should be registered. All your form will do is tell the tax office. I would guess that it is like a TV licence they don't fine you straight away but give you the chance first.

whizzbang

FillSpectre wrote:

Then she shouldn't worry. The tax people aren't going to tell the other people she should be registered. All your form will do is tell the tax office. I would guess that it is like a TV licence they don't fine you straight away but give you the chance first.

True, the prtb.ie says the cost to register is 70 euro within 28 days or double that after. Not sure which fine our land lady is worried about!

homerjk

Bit of a seperate question. My landlord and I are on this register. I was wondering does this now mean I can claim tax rent relief?
I asked the landlord and he said "he hadnt a clue".

The_Conductor

homerjk wrote:

Bit of a seperate question. My landlord and I are on this register. I was wondering does this now mean I can claim tax rent relief?
I asked the landlord and he said "he hadnt a clue".

You are entitled to claim the tax relief, yes, to a max of 254 Euro per annum, irrespective of whether or not your landlord is registered. So, yes is the answer.

FillSpectre

whizzbang wrote:

True, the prtb.ie says the cost to register is 70 euro within 28 days or double that after. Not sure which fine our land lady is worried about!

So her huge fine is €140! I doubt she is that bothered about that and would guess it is the her taxes she isn't paying. File your claim as you are entitled to do (no need for her tax details). If she hasn't paid her taxes for the year she deserves what ever punishment is given. Tax fraud is a crime and turth be said it would be lower if everybody paid their rightful share. THere is no excuse in the current climate to allow somebody steal from the public while holding on to an appriciating asset in short supply.

If your rent is just €1200 a month that is €6k she is defrauding from the state. More likely she is bothered about that and not €140 after fines and interest I am guessing it will be a lot higher. It is hard to complain about the government wasting money when compliant in somebody defrauding the state. :cool:

Lex Luthor

whizzbang wrote:

ahh ok, I just looke dup the appartment address on the spreadsheets on that web site. I'll look out for that in the future.

Thanks!

Just because she is not on website, doesn't mean she is registered.

I'm registered but its not listed on there. I think they only update once a year.

Cantab.

You're entitled to your €300 a year tax relief on rental expenditure. To avail of this you're landlord must be registered. You should insist that they register, otherwise you are in a limbo situation should any problems arise (e.g. house-mates breaking lease, return of deposit, damage to property, etc.).

Better to keep things above board. The landlord's taxation issues/potential fines is not your concern - at the end of the day, all you are really concerned about is the €300 a year tax relief which you are perfectly entitled to. Don't suit other people (especially those with whom you have a business relationship with) before suiting yourself.

FillSpectre

Cantab. wrote:

You're entitled to your €300 a year tax relief on rental expenditure. To avail of this you're landlord must be registered.

They don't need to be registered for whizz to claim his tax back. Registration has nothing what so ever with payment of tax. Many people think there is a connection but there isn't. THe registration is for the council to insure standards are correct. Claiming your tax back is for the tax man to give some tax back to renters and also catch those not paying tax on income. YOu can register your property and the tax man will never know as there are civil rights issues about cross departmental information transfers.

antoinolachtnai

The revenue is perfectly entitled to look at the PRTB register. As I recall, it says so in the Act.

On the other hand, I am pretty sure the PRTB is not entitled to access the Revenue's files.

The PRTB, from what I can see, is having a tough enough time keeping up with registrations and is not in the business of fining landlords who are becoming compliant. Maybe I am wrong about this. Has anyone ever actually heard of a landlord being fined for non-compliance alone?

You don't actually have to give your landlord the PPS number in order for him to register the tenancy although he is required to request it from you.

whizzbang

antoinolachtnai wrote:

You don't actually have to give your landlord the PPS number in order for him to register the tenancy although he is required to request it from you.

wow, thats a bit odd? I'll probably just give it to her, don't want to give her any more reason to get snotty!

FillSpectre

antoinolachtnai wrote:

The revenue is perfectly entitled to look at the PRTB register. As I recall, it says so in the Act.

Acts aren't law is the first thing and secondly the tax man may be entitled to look at the records but they aren't given them and I doubt the look at them.

Registration still remains seperate from tax. If you think a landlord would register the rental and not pay tax I think you might have an odd idea about human nature. Somebody who registers is very likely to be paying tax IMHO. If somebody is not registered I would see it as an idicator they may be inclined not to pay tax but there really isn't a connection other than that.

Whizz claim your tax it is your entilement and if she is not paying her taxes so what that is her problem for stealling from us all.

antoinolachtnai

Acts of the Oireachtas actually are the law.

Anyone who has a rental and doesn't declare it is deferring the inevitable and setting him/herself up for a fall. Anyone who registers the rental with the PRTB and still doesn't declare it for tax is just plain stupid and ignorant.

I would think that Revenue gets an excel spreadsheet of the register every year or so. There is no reason why they wouldn't.

Lex Luthor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I would think that Revenue gets an excel spreadsheet of the register every year or so. There is no reason why they wouldn't.

Its available online so they have no reason not to double check whether they pay their taxes or not.

antoinolachtnai

Yes, but the public only sees part of the register. Obviously this is a good start, but the revenue (presumably) get a version that includes the PPS or tax number of all the landlords. They also get details of what the rent is.