Queenio who has the ball, is she big or is she small

fuzzbox

PLO 5/10 full ring Party

Villain has 500 or so in ep
I cover in LMP

Preflop
some limpers and I limp in LMP with QQ86 one suit, more limpers and 4 of us to the flop

Flop (40)
Qc 4c 4s
checked to me (last to act) I decide to check

Turn (40)
4d
checked to me, I bet 40, only villain calls

River (120)
2h
villain checks, I bet 120, and villain c/r for the rest ... its 290 to call ... your move?

cardshark202

can he really have anything other than a 4 here?

RoundTower

I once got to bluff two people in 24 hours off the top full house when the board came like this on the river (don't ask why I was even in the pot). That said you should fold.

careca

The only thing that would get me to call is his c/r. If he had bet 1/2 or 3/4 of the pot on the river I would fold straight away. But would he risk a check raise with quads. If you check behind he would look very stupid. He could also have AAxx and believe you are representing the 4 as you didn't bet the flop.

Ps why didn't you bet the flop, if someone has a four they are coming with you if not, you aren't getting anything out of it.

Bandana boy

careca wrote:

Ps why didn't you bet the flop, if someone has a four they are coming with you if not, you aren't getting anything out of it.

I am thinking because there is 3 other players any 1 of which who will get stacked if they hit there house of JT987653 on turn
and to induce a bluff/play for the pot

careca

Bandana boy wrote:

I am thinking because there is 3 other players any 1 of which who will get stacked if they hit there house of JT987653 on turn
and to induce a bluff/play for the pot

Fair enough if someone hits a house higher than fours on the turn, you will stack them but if someone has a stab at bluffing the pot you will only get the one bet outta them as they won't try a second time. If you bet and someone has a four, they will call and if they hit the house you will stack them, I reckon. It would also have saved us the hassle now.

ianmc38

Was he really trap checking on the river with quads? I might call here. Toss a coin and close your eyes.

Lafortezza

I call this. Careca made a good point about c/ring with quads. People usually bet the river with quads, not wanting to miss value by letting Villains check behind.
You'll see quads here occasionally but more likely an underfull or AAxx.

ligger

He could have AAXX but one of the X's could be the case 4 me thinks

cardshark202

I see people's point about him not risking a c/r with a 4, but why would he risk c/r'ing without one? I mean that c/r is only going to get called by a hand that beats him. I doubt AAxx would do this as it has some showdown value, so its either a total utter bluff or a 4. And given the texture of the board, a bluff here seems extremely unlikely. I fold here.

Bandana boy

I initially thought call Quads never checks river but i cant see a checkraising hand here AA can/should only call

Lafortezza

If Villain is a bad player I'd be more inclined to fold to the c/r, if he's a muppet its more likely to be FPS. A good player might be mistaken in thinking that fuzzbox is also a good player and be trying to get tricky and make him fold a decent hand.

Bandana boy

lafortezza wrote:

If Villain is a bad player I'd be more inclined to fold to the c/r, if he's a muppet its more likely to be FPS. A good player might be mistaken in thinking that fuzzbox is also a good player and be trying to get tricky and make him fold a decent hand.

So a good player might try a bluff here
but would a good player try a bluff in a 4 way limped 5-10 PLO pot
too often Fuzz has a 4 here for a good player to try a bluff

P.S i love the phrasing

might be mistaken in thinking that fuzzbox is also a good player

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

really can't see how he could have a four here, with the check-raise. Most likely AA, plus hoping for a bit of bluff equity aswell

cardshark202

Roundtower2 wrote:

Most likely AA, plus hoping for a bit of bluff equity aswell

Why would you want bluff equity with a hand that has showdown value? This doesn't make much sense.

fuzzbox

Well I folded.
The only thing I could think of was that he had AAxx, but why would he play AAxx like that, as I cannot call without a 4, or QQ.
Thus he must have the case 4, since I have QQ.

ollyk1

Hi Fuzz,

What was your thinking in betting the river? Do you think AAxx or KKxx calls you? And do you think they are out there?

I'm surprised at your river bet as I think KKxx and AAxx fold quite a bit unless you have quite an aggressive reputation or am I wrong?

Rnger

Bandana boy wrote:

too often Fuzz has a 4 here for a good player to try a bluff

surely anyone with a 4 would bet the flop with 4 players and two clubs on the board, no?

Bandana boy

lafortezza wrote:

might be mistaken in thinking that fuzzbox is also a good player .

but Lads the really intersting thing about this thread is the fight between Fuzz and Lafortezza that i am trying to start

A G
A G R
A G R O
AGRO

5starpool

Rnger wrote:

surely anyone with a 4 would bet the flop with 4 players and two clubs on the board, no?

Betting this from EP on the flop can get you into trouble. It has done for me a lot in the past. This is the type of board where you check and maybe call on the flop and then hate where the turn leaves you (unless this is a miracle 4). If for example your opponents hand is 4,5,6,7 if he bets this flop and is called/raised what hands are he beating here realistically?

my 2c

RoundTower

well fuzz is in last position on the flop. I would bet a naked 4 there almost always, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone check and later show down a 4.

fuzzbox

ollyk1 wrote:

Hi Fuzz,

What was your thinking in betting the river? Do you think AAxx or KKxx calls you? And do you think they are out there?

I'm surprised at your river bet as I think KKxx and AAxx fold quite a bit unless you have quite an aggressive reputation or am I wrong?

Hi Olly -
I thought I had the best hand on the river, so I bet. Why would you be surprised? Surely AA can look me up, maybe KK, and maybe even JJ. I have the 2nd nuts ... why can I not value bet?

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

but Lads the really intersting thing about this thread is the fight between Fuzz and Lafortezza that i am trying to start

A G
A G R
A G R O
AGRO

Haha - its ok, nobody would mistake me for a good player, so lafortezza speaks truth.

Samba

Rnger wrote:

surely anyone with a 4 would bet the flop with 4 players and two clubs on the board, no?

His four may have been very weak.

ollyk1

fuzzbox wrote:

Hi Olly -
I thought I had the best hand on the river, so I bet. Why would you be surprised? Surely AA can look me up, maybe KK, and maybe even JJ. I have the 2nd nuts ... why can I not value bet?

For me it would be a serious crying call with KK here. I think I laydown KK most of the time. Therefore I really only see him calling with AA.

I feel he's equally likely to have the case 4 as AA here. Therefore if he has the case 4 he raises and we face a tough decision to call or fold. If he has AA he calls and we win extra money. I agree on that much

Writing these thoughts down has clarified my thinking a little. My problem is I probably call his reraise and in order to avoid that problem (as I'm likely losing >75% of the time but the pot size would seduce me to call) I just check behind. You are right AA probably looks me up enough and maybe even KK to make a value bet worth it but higher variance!

Very interesting hand. I'm only finding my way with omaha and hands like this where there are better lines then my naturally more conservative (fish) approach are opening my eyes.

RoundTower

I think it's bad for him to be calling with AA unless he is also calling with smaller full houses, say 99 here, because AA is only really a bluff catcher here. Of course, most players play badly so it is possible you are getting looked up by AA but not smaller hands.

ollyk1

RoundTower wrote:

I think it's bad for him to be calling with AA unless he is also calling with smaller full houses, say 99 here, because AA is only really a bluff catcher here. Of course, most players play badly so it is possible you are getting looked up by AA but not smaller hands.

But would you still bet the river Dave if you were in Fuzz's spot to allow a poor player make a mistake? Would you agree with the value bet in the long run? I wouldn't have bet the river for the reasons I poorly explained above but I haven't sat at these tables and seen what sort of bets people call off on the river.

I'm coming at Omaha (maybe mistakenly) with the approach that you rarely see bets and raises on the river in Omaha and the money goes in earlier with draws and the river is mainly flat called or folded. Spectacularly naive?:o