dublin hurling

thebaz

After yesterdays defeat , is Dublin hurling going anywhere or is it another false dawn ?
I'm optimistic with the Dublin minors , and Crokes winning feile last year , that in a couple of years Dublin will put up a serious challenge .
Is my optimism , realistic or just daft !

Danno

Dublin have sucessfully completed part 1 of their grand hurling plan at underage level, however, as clearly pointed out on the TV last night, Dublin need to address the U21 scene to keep the talent there for the senior setup. It is vital that Dublin do this in order to reap the rewards over the next few years.

I can see Dublin becoming a force by the end of this decade. Patience though.

It is a pity that the Laois Co Board do not share the same vision.

mchurl

Well the underage talent is certaily there in Dublin and ive experienced it firsthand having played with and against a lot of them. But days like yesterday are what make people turn away from hurling in Dublin. A lot of these talented youngsters will play hurling as well as football, and when push comes to shove, when they see the senior team being beatne inthe Leinster Championship by teams like westmeath, they will pick football ahead of hurling and tbh i dont blame them.

I also know of at least one case of a major club in Dublin, i wont name them, where when senior level is reached, if the players wants to play on the senior football side, they are told to quit hurling or else they wont be considered for selection.

Danno

Name them and shame them McHurl.

Imposter

Didn't Westmeath beat kilkenny in the minor a few years back? "Getting beaten by teams like Westmeath" says more for fans arrogance than it does for reality. Dublin in the last while (20+ years) have never been a force in Leinster hurling.

/que discussion about conditions, once-off wins etc.. but remember it was the same for both sides.

mchurl

Imposter wrote:

/que discussion about conditions, once-off wins etc.. but remember it was the same for both sides.

No complaints about that at all, the better team won on the day and deservedly so. My point is that if Dublin are improving in the hurling world, well then surely they should be able to beat teams like Westmeath.

I'd also like people's opinions on the Dublin Colleges competing in the schools All-Ireland. Do people think it is fair that a county team should be playing against school teams? I was discussing this today with a friend of mine and i dont think they should be allowed to compete because its simply unfair for someone to be able to pick players from all over the county, even if they have to be in school, to play against other schools. My friend disagreed but couldnt come up with any valid points on why. Opinions?

thebaz

seems very strange that Dublin Colleges is allowed to pick players from different schools . I know there a lot of rugby playing schools , such as Gonzaga and Blackrock, that have lots of hurlers , but no school hurling team - they can only play at clubs level for the likes of Kilmacud Crokes - but then there is Colaiste Eoin and other Dublin schools that have strong teams - seems odd !

The Rooster

mchurl wrote:

No complaints about that at all, the better team won on the day and deservedly so. My point is that if Dublin are improving in the hurling world, well then surely they should be able to beat teams like Westmeath.

I'd also like people's opinions on the Dublin Colleges competing in the schools All-Ireland. Do people think it is fair that a county team should be playing against school teams? I was discussing this today with a friend of mine and i dont think they should be allowed to compete because its simply unfair for someone to be able to pick players from all over the county, even if they have to be in school, to play against other schools. My friend disagreed but couldnt come up with any valid points on why. Opinions?

The hungrier team won on the day. It didnt really matter to Dublin in that a hammering to Kilkenny is inevitable, which will leave both Dublin and Westmeath at the same stage of the championship in any event. Getting promotion to Division 1 was a far more important game for Dublin than the game against Westmeath. However, they still didnt want to lose, and we'll see whether it serves as a punch in the stomach or a kick up the jacksie.

As for the Dublin schools situation, only by amalgamating can they put themselves in a competitive situation. While plenty of Dublin schools have a few very good hurlers, no school in Dublin could put out an anywhere near decent hurling team.

The likes of Flannans, Kierans, Colmans, St Pats Navan get all the best players in from surrounding counties. They are effectively amalgamated teams, albeit they are single schools.

Flannans had guys from 3 different counties playing. Eoin Kelly went to Kierans as do many from neighbouring counties-they don't go for the education- they go because its a hurling nursery. Navan had players from 5 counties playing. These schools have a massive pick of players, and the only way Dublin could compete is to combine. Any single Dublin school playing the likes of Flannans or Kierans would be like Kilkenny playing Donegal. It'd be more cricket than hurling!

If Dublin started to win regularly then they'd probably look at splitting them, into maybe 2 or 4 regions - but at the moment its only 1 all-ireland in 10 years.

Imposter

Do combined teams exist in other counties for schools that can't field their own teams? If not then it shouldn't exist in Dublin either imo. The Dublin underage structure is strong enough that there should be quite a few schools able to field decent enough teams.

As regards the championship I thinks its time for a league based championship with 3 levels and promotion/relegation, like what they are doing with the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups but on a league basis. It'd give Dublin, Westmeath, Laois, Antrim and others something to play for when they are not in the main championship and getting games against similar opposition in the summer will stand to these teams imo.

Danno

Dublin Laois and Antrim are in no-mans land.

Too good for tier 2 and too poor for tier 1.

Westmeath and Down could nearly be added to the above list also.

planck2

mchurl wrote:

Well the underage talent is certaily there in Dublin and ive experienced it firsthand having played with and against a lot of them. But days like yesterday are what make people turn away from hurling in Dublin. A lot of these talented youngsters will play hurling as well as football, and when push comes to shove, when they see the senior team being beatne inthe Leinster Championship by teams like westmeath, they will pick football ahead of hurling and tbh i dont blame them.

I also know of at least one case of a major club in Dublin, i wont name them, where when senior level is reached, if the players wants to play on the senior football side, they are told to quit hurling or else they wont be considered for selection.

Hey what's wrong with Westmeath, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I know some of Westmeath's hurler's and they are by no means crap. In any case Kilkenny will wipe the floor with Westmeath, and they would do the same if the were playing Dublin

mchurl

planck2 wrote:

Hey what's wrong with Westmeath, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I know some of Westmeath's hurler's and they are by no means crap. In any case Kilkenny will wipe the floor with Westmeath, and they would do the same if the were playing Dublin

Agreed totally about Kilkeny, but what im trying to say is, and not meaning to be disrespectful to Westmeath, that this so called renaissance in Dublin hurling, they should eb able to beat a relativly weak hurling county such as Westmeath.

I understand that other schools such as Kiernas and Pats of Navan get players from otehr counties, but they dont get to choose these players, they inherit them. Dublin Colleges get to choose their players. This year the Colleges side had a number of players from last years successful minor team, plus the pick of this years. Surely this isnt fair? I know its the first All-Ireland they have won, but still imo it isnt fair. Lets say we changed and let Kilkenny Colleges compete or Cork Colleges, there would be uproar.

thebaz

what schools are most of the Dublin College team made up from ?

The Rooster

If it was Clare colleges, the starting XV would have more than likely have been 15 from Flannans. If you play hurling to any decent level, and live in the area, you go to Flannans.

If it was Kilkenny Colleges the team would be made up of players from two colleges.

The Dublin starting XV in the final came from 9 different clubs, so its safe to assume about 9 different colleges (more I'd guess), some of whom might not even have a hurling team.

The spread is that wide in Dublin that there wouldnt be one Dublin school capable of beating the second XV from any of the big hurling nurseries such as Flannans, Kierans, Midleton.

caks1999

Danno wrote:

I can see Dublin becoming a force by the end of this decade. Patience though.

I agree completely, Danno, Dublin hurling is on the up. It's not a few years since you'd have choked on your tae if someone suggested Dublin playing in Division One of the NHL and posing a threat in the Leinster Championship.

Fine, they won't beat Kilkenny, but I believe had they got them on Sunday past, they would have given them a quare lash! The conditions and the state of the pitch would have been (apologies for the cliché) a great leveller. Alright, they still would have lost but not by the twenty or more points they might on a fine day at Croker.

Their minor success last year was a huge boost and the whole country was talking about it. Up here in Derry, we won a minor All-Ireland in football going on four years ago. We have yet to reap the rewards but they will come. The senior team is very young and there is a good chance that the Red Hands down the road could get a good beating on Sunday!

Time is essential, the minor team are not going make the progression to senior level straight away and it could be 2010 before the full benefits are seen. That is considering that the good work at underage continues in the interluding years. Give it time, though, and the Metropolitans may just upset Kilkenny.......some day.......

planck2

mchurl wrote:

Agreed totally about Kilkeny, but what im trying to say is, and not meaning to be disrespectful to Westmeath, that this so called renaissance in Dublin hurling, they should eb able to beat a relativly weak hurling county such as Westmeath.

I understand that other schools such as Kiernas and Pats of Navan get players from otehr counties, but they dont get to choose these players, they inherit them. Dublin Colleges get to choose their players. This year the Colleges side had a number of players from last years successful minor team, plus the pick of this years. Surely this isnt fair? I know its the first All-Ireland they have won, but still imo it isnt fair. Lets say we changed and let Kilkenny Colleges compete or Cork Colleges, there would be uproar.

Hurling in Westmeath is not weak, we have always had some good hurlers. I would say that hurling in Westmeath is on a par with the level in Dublin. I agree that it is not fair that the likes of UCD, DIT and DCU get to choose players from other counties and get to to compete in the DUblin County championship. Their competing does really do much for hurling in Dublin.

slinky

I know the conditions were the same for both teams but Dublin's game was more affected by the scandalous pitch conditions but a great result for Westmeath all the same. Never let the heads drop. They'll have a cut at us make no mistake and they have nothing to lose.

I'd be reasonably optimistic about Dublin hurling they're our main rivals underage. 2 young guys making their championship debut more will come through. Just have to hold on to them and not end up with more Keaneys. Shows what happens when the will is there and the structures are put in place to develop at ayoung age if only
we could see that happening in more counties.

mchurl

caks1999 wrote:

Time is essential, the minor team are not going make the progression to senior level straight away and it could be 2010 before the full benefits are seen. That is considering that the good work at underage continues in the interluding years. Give it time, though, and the Metropolitans may just upset Kilkenny.......some day.......

But this is one of the big problems in Dublin. The players dont want to hang around for success. A lot of these talented young hurlers are also equally adept at football and they will pick football ahead of hurling as succes will come easier.

klong

Imposter wrote:

Do combined teams exist in other counties for schools that can't field their own teams? If not then it shouldn't exist in Dublin either imo. The Dublin underage structure is strong enough that there should be quite a few schools able to field decent enough teams.

Dundalk Schools in football; they won the Leinster "A" a few years ago, beat Pats of Navan in the final

Waylander

planck2 wrote:

Hurling in Westmeath is not weak, we have always had some good hurlers. I would say that hurling in Westmeath is on a par with the level in Dublin. I agree that it is not fair that the likes of UCD, DIT and DCU get to choose players from other counties and get to to compete in the DUblin County championship. Their competing does really do much for hurling in Dublin.

If that is the case how come it was only the second time in 50 years Westmeath have beaten Dublin in Championship hurling. Don't get me wrong, I do not think Dublin are any great hurling force, but there is a gap between the two counties. That match was largely irrelevant in any case as Kilkenny would beat either team comfortably.

mchurl

klong wrote:

Dundalk Schools in football; they won the Leinster "A" a few years ago, beat Pats of Navan in the final

Yes but Dublin Colleges is different to Dundalk schools as im guessing Dundalk schools can only pick players from schools in Dundalk, which is still a little unfair, but not half as bad as Dublin Colleges.

klong

mchurl wrote:

Yes but Dublin Colleges is different to Dundalk schools as im guessing Dundalk schools can only pick players from schools in Dundalk, which is still a little unfair, but not half as bad as Dublin Colleges.

Thats quite true; but just as an addendum (if thats the right word), the catchment area for the Dundalk schools would also include south Down (I believe there were students from Down on the Dundalk Schools team which won Leinster, am open to correction though) and possibly south Armagh, as well as east Monaghan and north Louth.

mchurl

klong wrote:

Thats quite true; but just as an addendum (if thats the right word), the catchment area for the Dundalk schools would also include south Down (I believe there were students from Down on the Dundalk Schools team which won Leinster, am open to correction though) and possibly south Armagh, as well as east Monaghan and north Louth.

Were this players in school in Dundalk? They were a fer players on the Colleges this year from outside of Dublin but they went to school in Dublin so they could play for them.

popebenny16

planck2, I think it is only fair to say that there is a gap between Dublin and Westmeath Hurlers, or else how do you explain the scenes of jubilation at the end by the Westmeath team?

I was at the match, it shouldnt have been played, full stop. One of the Laois lads got injured at the start of the second match running in the quagmire that had developed at the town end of the pitch, crocked his ankle, we knew it was coming in our match. Dosnt take it away from Westmeath, they simply wanted to win more than we did, however I fully think that the relegation playoffs will involve a match between us again and we'll win. Remember Laois last year? I was at both matches, and for some reason developed an intense hatred for Laois hurling. It was very obvious that the game was thrown in an effort to be rid of the managment but the way Laois celebrated only ment that Dublin came right back at them resulting in their defeat when it mattered, so beware Westmeath.

With regard to Dublin hurling, just look at this example. I live in Tipp, my two sons aged 6 and 7 have been playing hurling since Junior Infants in the Local primary school. They even play in a mini league. I started playing GAA in Dublin in third class. That's where the difference starts. OK, within Tipp there are hurling and football strongholds and never the twain shall meet and, yes, Dublin are doing the business at an underage level. However, if you go to the leauge matches, the Walsh Cup, even,as i've done, Oireactas Championship, you can see that for all the will in the world the first touch really isnt there, and those seconds are vital. Letting UCD and also suspending the club championship during most of the summer dosnt help either, County Board. If our lads are several years behind at the start we can forget it.

Finally, just off topic, but regarding Hurling in general. Dublin, Laois, Westmeath and New York/Down will be the four teams in the relegation section after the backdoor league come August. Next year we can take out New York and put in Antrim. It is a joke. Something has to be done, we have to start in the schools and we have to actually get a seperate county board for hurling set up in Dublin, with players playing elclusive hurling form u-15's onward, if we have to have a chance.

Sorry about the rant, spend too much time watching the boys in blue in the rain.

Imposter

I think the relegation and promotion setup may provide the kick in the arse neccessary to get these teams to put more effort in. It could also go the opposite way but Westmeath have shown that it is possible to win a match at the "top level".