Mick Coup Seminar

Odysseus

I was just wondering what people thought of Micks seminar yesterday, from my perspective it was a good day out, pity I had to leave before the end, but at least I got 95% of it.

I thought he had a very clear teaching style and was not only able to engage people but was able to take his time on an individual basis if you were finding anything difficult to grasp.

For me I think the most intersting things were how he had adapted the open hand slap, as well as the way he adapted the shin kick. I had difficulty with the way he suggested to increase power through the body, i.e. the hips first. Then again I have been doing my heel plams another way for years, so the difference would be difficult, even though it was only a minor change. A big thanks to Baggio and Padraic for organising it and providing a venue, cheers lads.

john22

I really enjoyed micks seminar yesterday. There was only a small number of us so mick could get around to everyone and help people individualy if they were having difficulty.
Micks method of developing power behind a punch really worked well as you could reeally feel it when you held the pads for your partner, and im sure some peoples arms are killing them today like myself;) The indexing technique was also really interesting and made alot of sense.
It was also hilarious to see the fear in peoples faces when they held the pads for mick as he is built like a tank:p
Again cheers to Rob and Paidraic for organising it and to Mick for coming over.

Musashi

I'd like to add my thanks to Paraic and Rob for the day out!

My hand is hopping off me and I just got back from Dublin so sorry if this is a bit all over the place! I was heading up to Dublin to visit my brother for the Rugby so this seminar came at a perfect time and place for me

Overall a really good experience, Mick is pretty much as I thought he would be from reading his articles over on the Thompson Forum, he's just bigger and younger than I had expected (dunno why I thought he was older, maybe he's just fitted so much in).
I Really found his information sensible and rooted in reality, as in real world and Physics, rather than "Reality Based Self Defense".He's not some kind of guru telling you how he "thinks" fights should go, he's been there and knows already.He then analysed what does and doesn't happen, and what does and doesn't work. His advice and techniques are great because you can see straight away how he's pared down what he teachs to the stuff that will work. You win by knocking the other guy out and why would you need two ways to do so where one removes any decision making that might delay you in knocking him out.
Micks teaching style is great, very laid back, breaking up the talking about hitting with practice so you never get overloaded with info. A great (if twisted) sense of humour keeps the whole day flying past. As numbers were small we each got plenty of advice in the form of "Tune Ups" on where we were going wrong and how to generate more power. Everybody was hitting a lot harder after the first half hour of instruction and I've no doubt that everybody there now has more confidence in their ablilities to strike hard. It was also nice to see how tight and effective Mick himself can strike, very efficient in what he does with no movement wasted. He also hits like a car ran into you! His talks on how to apply power and direction of strikes was great and the little changes he made to how I'd throw a kick really opened my eyes to how kicks can be used effectively, just not as they are usually taught.

And finally a few words on what this is not! It's not a guy telling you how you can easily defeat any attacker. It was stressed several times that humans are tough and hard to stop.
It's not a grab bag of favoured moves taught like an A La Carte Buffet. There is a structure and unified plan where each bit builds to form a system of self preservation. The default level is one of extreme violence applied with vigour to stop your oponnent. You can always tone down the response.
It's not some weird cult where if your a good boy, and become like a son to your Master you'll be shown the deadly "Nine Point Palm Technique". With this seminar you get the deadly Ninja secrets in the first hour, they are the guts of the whole thing and there aren't any "advanced" moves, just the same things done better and integrated more.
It's also not telling you if you study hard and tell your friends Mick will make you a Tenth Dan in his system. However if you train hard and apply some work ethic you will get very good and hitting really feckin' hard In fairness the attendees ranged from skinny endurance athletes to the huskier gentleman (Me) but everybody saw an improvement. I liked that we weren't told that we could do this stuff when old, feeble or otherwise impaired by injury or whatever. Obviously it's better to be six feet tall and built like a big brick outhouse to better smite your foes:eek: This course allows smaller people to hit like bigger people though, and the big lads like Paraic and Mick to hit like a train just derailed over you!

Anyways, I was already a big fan of the Combatives before this seminar and I'm now even happier that this is the most sensible way of handling inter-personal conflict if the U.N. won't intervene on my behalf. Cheers lads and hope to do it again soon!

Millionaire

sounds great! Iwould loved to been to that.

So is micks system, combatives techniques, with his own way of delievering them and generating more power?

There is no secrets in combatives...just a few very basic simple techniques, that you must drill for max speed and power.

Musashi

What we learned was basically three hand attacks for high line and two kicks for low line, a couple of handy techniques and how to apply same. The best of it was his use of body position to wind up a shot without looking like you are, and how to move your weight in the direction of force application. Some of the shots are very deceptive and Mick can fire a lead hand shot which will knock you silly.
Basically like all good Combatives the whole thing is so simple but with a couple of tweaks it gets even better! A couple of rules apply, like move your body in the same direction as your strike is applying force, and apply force at 90 degrees to the target. That's it really, very simple and direct but until you see the applied use of the principles, massive effect from little changes

Mick Coup

Guys,

Just a quick note to say thanks for having me over - it was a pleasure to meet you all.

Big thanks for Padraic for supplying such an excellent venue, and of course to Baggio for organising the event.

From my point of view, I was impressed with the obvious increase in power you all demonstrated as the day went on - some very tangible and credible progress was made - and the training atmosphere was how it should be - relaxed and without ego.

I'm glad you liked the sample material I presented - I always lead in with the high-percentage stuff, and always focus on offensive tactics first and foremost.

Looking forward to the next time - I'll cover a little more, there's plenty yet!

Mick

PS How old did you think I was Musashi? For the record I'm 38 next month!

Baggio...

Lo' all,

Thanks to everyone who took part - I hope you all had a good day. I thought it went really well personally, and I always learn something new when I meet up with Mick. Huge thanks to him for popping over and taking time out of his schedule, and also to Padraic for letting us use his gym.

I think the smaller group enabled us to receive more focused instruction, as well as pad time. I really like the way Mick uses drills that mimic real life scenarios – it's a very clever way of using the focus mitts and it really opens up a new way of thinking for me. Also, I really like Mick's practicality and way of thinking, I.E. – “boiling down” the system as opposed to adding superfluous material that is not really practical in a live situation.

Like Odysseus , I was throwing palm shots differently for many years. I'm now only learning how to use the hip and kinetic transference for maximising power. To reiterate what Musashi said, one of the reasons that I really like the system is that it's very rooted in physics and proper body mechanics.

Looking forward to the next module, as Mick was saying this is only the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more to come for those who are interested. Again apologies to anyone who I was not able to accommodate, this was due to the small venue. However Mick will be over again ASAP.

Thanks again,

Baggio.

Millionaire

tell me about hip rotation?

Do you mean like a trad karate guy would rotate his hips, when doing a reverse punch? (sorry I cannot find words to describe this hip twist).

Or just like a boxer throwing a cross?

or is it something I have never heard of yet...if so tell me I m all ears???

Odysseus

Basically gerry it is only a minor adjustment to how you already do your plam shots, however, the hip is the first part of your body to move, which in turn is followed by your plam strike [if I'm explaining right]. Mick feels that it gives a more powerful shot, but you know what I'm like with new movements, takes me a while to get it, the slow #### that I am. Have a try yourself and let me know how you get on. If I'm not explaining right I'm sure one of the other lads, could do better. Anyway off for a long run, bet the weather is nicer where you are.

Mick Coup

Gerry,

To really make the most of impact development - let's face it, if there's no power in a shot there's also no point to the shot - there are a few basic principles to adhere to.

Whatever tool you are using to strike with - hand, knee, elbow, baton etc - it should be the last thing to move, in order to accumulate as much energy as possible. Preceding the tool is a series of efficient bio-mechanical movements that each adds to the last and results in a massive amount of shock being transferred to the target.

Sounds complicated? Think about the delivery system involved in throwing a ball, or a javelin, or putting the shot. In each case the movement of the object is the last link in a chain of events. Trying to throw a ball before moving the body would get you laughed off the pitch!

I can hear all manner of comments regarding 'telegraphing' already - but it's not as much of an issue in real combat as most would believe, let me assure you. In typical sparring, or sport fighting, it's a big deal undoubtedly - you have to be able to bridge the gap before your opponent can react and counter etc, but fighting isn't like sparring - at all.

For fighting, the question 'What gap?' springs to mind, and the only time I'm really interested in a purely non-telegraphic shot is in a pre-emptive situation - and for this I'll always go with the simple 'long gouge' to the eye from a hands up type of position, followed by a barrage of heavy explosive blows.

As an example of power delivery, take a rear hand punch or palm heel shot - aimed at a high-value target like the jaw or mastoid process, from a virtually square-on position with the feet just slightly staggered and the rear heel lifted to bend the rear leg and pre-engage the thigh and calf muscles.

This blow is never going to go down the middle toward the target - the shoulder isn't located in the centre of the body - so we have to use this slight angle inwards as our line of application in this instance. Everything has to go with this 'attackline' - known as 'translation' - not across it or away from it.

When we take a step toward the target, to close in perhaps or just to set bodyweight in motion, the foot should actually move parallel to the attackline - not just toward the target. The head moves with the lead foot - it's actually this head movement that applies the bodyweight, far more than the step in fact.

The lead foot only moves a short distance, and shouldn't 'bang' into the floor - this is wasting power and energy (it's finite after all!) and unless the blow is downwards in direction the weight shouldn't drop either, but be projected forward, once more WITH the attackline - excessively dropping the body when striking forward moves the weight away from the attackline, and dropping the body whilst striking upward is just ridiculous - think about it!

The rear heel should rise forward over the foot, punching the knee forward - not upward - which in turn allows the rear hip to drive forward - not rotating as such, but like the knee moving with the attackline.

This dramatic hip movement precedes an identical shoulder movement - once again translating force forwards with the attackline, not rotating away from it.

Pivoting the body in the centre only allows a small-lever effect - moving the pivot to the far foot/hip/shoulder creates a 'hinge' effect with a much longer lever, and the whole body can be 'slammed' like a door.

Whilst all this is going on, the hand stays relaxed and doesn't move relative to the target, so the body has the effect of 'gathering up' the arm which then drives the hand forward along the attackline which the point of application - impact - being about 75% of the limit of application.

So long as the structure is correct, the knee is in front of the foot, the hip in front of the knee, the shoulder in front of the hip and the elbow in front of the shoulder but right behind the hand - everything should go 'bang' just nicely and the hand is 'bounced' out of the target (note - 'out' not 'off') for a full recovery and another shot if required.

Anybody wanting more details on this could do a search on the Geoff Thompson message board under my name, I've posted a fair bit of technical information there in the past - enjoy!

Hope the above answers your question mate!

Mick

Baggio...

Mick,
Thanks for the detailed explanation (glad I did not post my explanation now):)

Mill,
It's quite hard to get the hang of, but once you get it the power is spectacular. Again, I'm really only starting to scratch the surface myself. Like Odysseus, I was doing the shots very differently for years. I'm only starting to do things the correct way now.

Cheers,

Baggio.

Odysseus

Musashi wrote:

In fairness the attendees ranged from skinny endurance athletes to the huskier gentleman (Me) but everybody saw an improvement.

LOL:D Thanks for the endurance athlete, but I would use the word althetic as oppposed to skinny, but that is what my profession calls denial. Nice to have met to you mate.;)

Millionaire

Thanks lads, Thanks Mick for the detail answer.

I shall visualize this and try this later. I probably have been throwing the Plam different too, same as the lads.

I remember on one Geoff Thompson vid pete considene is demo a slap shot he used to use on door work, and he gets a great hip twist before the shot.

I shall try on the bag later, though its harder doing this stuff alone. no point in asking the thais to feed me a pad, as their so in the Muay Thai box.

Odysseus is the most unusual endurance althete in the world, He could run 100 miles in record time and puff through a carton of fags, as hes doing it no bother! Got over in own denial Odysseus....I am on step 1 right now. sober life is great! ; -)

Musashi

Sorry Odysseus! I meant toned of course!

For some reason Mick I'd had the impression that you were older (Fifties?) and working as an advisor/trainer. Must admit to being a bit dumbstruck when I saw you!

Millionaire, the palm shot is unlike any I've done in MA or in Boxing. The weight shift starts before the hand moves, and is done explosively over a short range. Feels a bit odd at first to leave that kind of pause before throwing, rather than moving everything at once as I was taught in TKD for years. Once you start to get it though you can really feel the difference. As for telegraphing the strike, to see Mick throw this, it's very deceptive. There is no wind up or chamber, and you tend to watch him moving and miss the hand which is coming in after
It's a very tight shot, good for close in and packs a savage wallop. It just makes a lot more sense to me as an in fight move. Compared to a traditional reverse punch or even a right cross, this is a better bet. It removes the danger of breaking a hand, it hits hard and can be repeated as needed, it removes any decision making process and it can be used in a crowded or confined space. Looking forward now to seeing what else Mick has to show us :eek:

Mick Coup

Musashi,

I just feel a lot older - my fault for starting young!

I do work as an advisor and trainer, but I haven't hung up my operational hat just yet - that's a long way off!

Mick

Roper

Hi Mick,

Your explanation of how you develop power (the hip before hand thing) is actually echoing what a boxing coach told me a long time ago. As for 'telegraphing', am I right in suggesting that a beginner will telegraph this shot more than someone who's been doing it a long time? TBH, it all doesn't sound a million miles away from boxing insofar as power generation goes except for when you talk about targetting.

On another point, the guys above come from mainly trad MA backgrounds (open to correction here!) and as a broad generalisation, many MA's have comparitively weak punching as opposed to boxing for example. Have you ever had a boxer display the same increase in power over the session as the lads did above?

By the way I'm not saying you guys were punching badly beforehand, I'm sure you weren't! But I'm curious about the mechanics involved in the technique. Especially since over a session people gained more power.

Cheers,
Barry

Mick Coup

Barry,

Generally guys get a big improvement after about 5 mins of 'tuning up' - never mind after a session!

I get plenty of guys with heavy boxing backgrounds, and usually they have to resort to the palm heel as their wrists can't handle the sudden increase in impact. I do find that a lot of boxers have the 'whole unit' approach to punching so ingrained it's sometimes hard to get the 'accumulated' effect that produces the power.

Essentially, imagine throwing a punch with all the component movements seperated and working in reverse order - so that the hand is absolutely the last thing to move, backed up by a tremendous amount of plyometric force.

Mick

Baggio...

For me anyway, I have seen a huge difference in my power generation since I've been training with Mick. Originally I had been punching in as a “whole package”- fist and hips together. This includes my old boxing club as well as the TMA I had previously done. In kenpo it's referred to a “Marriage of gravity”. It's only now I'm starting to feel the proper Kinetic transference (although I've still got a lot of practicing to do).
Another factor synonymous with combatives is the “infamous” drop step”, which I no longer use as there is too much energy transfered to the ground (again thanks to Mick). It's now modified to a forward lunge – thus all the body weight goes forward and into the target.

I'd also been really careful about telegraphing my moves. The problem with that is it reduces the power of the strikes. As were not match fighting and the range is so close we don't have to worry about it as much. Also, Mick has showed us a rather ingenious way of cocking the weapon, but it remains invisible to the opponent - while being able to then generate tremendous power.

B.

Pro. F

interesting stuff.
thanks for all the info guys and that's a great, clear explanation Mick.
i can now appreciate the huge difference between this technique for striking with the hands and say the Muay Thai technique. but i did have to stand up and try it out in slow motion - leading to worried looks from my familly
i'm off to read more of the details on the Geoff Thompson site.

Millionaire

I don't think lee morrison does the "drop step" correct me if I am wrong??

In his DVD he seems to lunge forward to, and a piston like strike.
I picked up on that, and I had been practicing that, for palm and cupped hand slap to side of head.

I find with for a Slap, a sort of diagonial step or lunge, I can launch a massive wave of power. in fact the thai bags are rock hard, and the slap almost hurts my hand, with the power, it would hate to be on the receiving end of that!

Baggio...

Hi Mill,

I was the same, I picked the drop step up form Morrison and Cestari. And most of the Combatives guys are still doing it. However, since I started training with Mick I've stopped using it. When Mick broke the mechanics down for me, he pointed out that when the drop step is executed there was more energy deposited on the ground - hence slamming the foot off the floor. (Great if you want to hit someone who is trying to get off the ground or something as most of the energy goes downwards). But there is a hell of a lot more energy if you just “lunge” forward without the foot slam. All the energy goes straight into the target and there is no “leakage” tdownwards. The drop step sounds a hell of a lot more powerful than it actually is. I'm not saying that some of the guys who still use the drop step can't hit. But they would probably be able to do more damage if they tried the forward lunge.

Cheers,

Bagg.