Steve Jones - Sunday Times

thebaz

Does anyone find Steve Jones of the Sunday Times , irratatingly anti Irish -- and as a follow on anti Munster , particularly about the quality of Irish rugby -- get a life Steve , and maybe concentrate on lambasting your beloved Wales and England instead.

Benny-c

Baz,

Unfortunately publications such as The Sun, Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph & The Times would waste no time in a spot of Paddy Bashing, they however tone it down for their 'oirish' editions.

How anyome buys these 'oirish' rags never ceases to amaze me.

Snickers Man

What did he say about Munster yesterday? I can't seem to get hold of the Sunday Times online

Teg Veece

I just finished reading his article there and went online to see if anyone else thought it was as small minded as I preceived it.

The guy is incapable of praising anything Irish. I love the way he criticises Munster's attacking performance so regularly for being 1 dimensional and yet he marvels at England's boring 10 phases of possession style playing so much that it borders on an obsession.

Remember when Ireland beat England in Twickenham after they won the world cup. O'Gara played an absolute blinder and received 9's in most of the player reviews the following day. SJ's article made reference to him only 5 times. Four of those times were to record a penalty he scored and the other time was actually to criticise him.

He has some serious personal issues with Peter Stringer too. He has a weekly jab at him regardless of the topic of his column. In today's paper he makes reference to him only once and that was just to say how a woeful defensive error allowed him to walk over for a try. This is despite the fact that he was the most influential player on the pitch yesterday and was awarded MOTM. Incidently, Jones gave his MOTM to Harinordoquy.

His one eyed reporting is just appauling. I find myself reading his column purely to see what sort of crap he'll come up with this week.

Teg Veece

Here's his match report by the way. He also blames the ref for munster's victory and of course there was no question that Biarritz scored a perfectly legitimate try.

The Sunday Times May 21, 2006

Munster 23 Biarritz 19: Brave Munster relish their day of destiny
Stephen Jones at the Millennium stadium




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Their crown of destiny seemed to be slipping. Munster, whether paralysed by nerves or nervous exhaustion, sat back alarmingly in the second half and yet, from somewhere deep down in that bottomless well of their passion, they found the spirit and the tackles to hold out and take the Heineken European Cup for the first time.
The scenes on the field were predictably delirious and so were the scenes back home in Limerick’s O’Connell Street, where thousands more were flashed up on the Millennium stadium’s screens to fill in the flat spots when the Munster fans in Cardiff were taking a break. Nobody on earth can begrudge them. They won the trophy they have coveted for so long. On the run of play they deserved to, and they did so as part of an absolutely magnificent occasion in which the status of the tournament rose and the status of the final itself was once again boosted.
It was never any sort of classic match, but that is simply a technical observation. The reservations concerning the greatness of Munster’s achievement must be slightly tempered by the rampaging limitations of a Biarritz team who came to play but then found they were out of the habit. I also found rather disturbing the one-sided nature of Chris White’s performance as referee. He is one of the two top officials in the world, but almost every break went the way of the men in red. Furthermore, in these days when referees are talking to players throughout the whole game, it is grossly unfair in major matches involving French teams if the referee cannot speak their language.
Munster’s heroes were liberally dotted about. Not even their wildest dreamers would claim they have much in the way of attacking brilliance, but Trevor Halstead was wonderfully influential with his strength in the middle of the field. Ronan O’Gara often seemed to let his nerves get the better of him, but it would have taken a man with iced lager in his veins to remain cool throughout and it was with this midfield duo where the composure lay.
In the bad times and for most of the second half, it was Paul O’Connell and the Munster lineout which kept them going. They managed to keep some sort of hold in the scrum and, in the first half especially, when their driving around the fringes was so splendid, the likes of Denis Leamy and Jerry Flannery were marvellous. As an exercise in making the most of things and refusing to be parted with what is almost regarded as a birthright, it was masterly. It will be fascinating to see if some of the desire is now sated — it was clear that the whole experience was draining Munster people on and off the field as the second half drew on and Biarritz came closer and closer.
But never too close for comfort. Biarritz had the man of the match in Imanol Harinordoquy and it was worth the price of the ticket alone to watch his magnificent dexterity. There was some decent driving from the likes of Petru Balan and Census Johnston. Dimitri Yachvili had some fine moments and the class of Philippe Bidabe shone.
Yet the French side are out of the habit of maximising themselves. They have sat back in big games this season. They have not tested their own gas and when they tried to step on the accelerator there was very little there. They had heart but their defending in the first half was dismal and, staggeringly for a French team, the execution behind the scrum was awful.
The truth is that, for a team of their basic talents, Biarritz had Munster there for the taking in the second half. There was the odd Munster drive and there were an awful lot of decisions against Biarritz. But there was no sense that Munster were building for a thunderous conclusion. It was as if both teams had decided to sit back on the ropes so much that they could hardly reach each other to land the punches.
Departures from the script began early when, instead of the expected steaming Munster start, we had an exceptional Biarritz try. It came from a lineout won by Harinordoquy and Jean-Baptiste Gobelet came in from the blind-side wing to set up the play. When the ball came to the left, Bidabe cut through and put Sereli Bobo over in the left-hand corner. He came within millimetres of the touchline, but the touch judge was always feet from the spot and no television replays suggested that the try should have been ruled out.
Munster were then able to establish themselves, first due to their own excellent organisation and driving, and second because they netted a whole succession of breaks from the refereeing. And then there was the vexed question, especially if you were a Basque, of dreadful Biarritz defending. Munster’s two tries came about through schoolboy errors which you would never have expected from arguably the best defensive team in the competition.
Indeed, Biarritz held out well in the face of two relentless sets of Munster attacks. However, when O’Gara chipped ahead after taking a clearance kick, Biarritz stood and watched the ball bounce, and a flick from Anthony Horgan sent O’Connell driving hard into the Biarritz secondary defence. Munster drove on relentlessly and O’Gara put Halstead over towards the left-hand corner.
O’Gara had already kicked a penalty so this converted try put Munster 10-7 ahead, but after 22 minutes Yachvili tied the score with his penalty.
Then came one of the most appalling defensive horrors of the competition, and probably of the century. Munster set up an attacking scrum, albeit with at least one forward pass and a harsh offside against Biarritz. For some unfathomable reason, Bobo wandered over to the open side, leaving an unguarded channel which Peter Stringer sauntered down at his leisure to score. It was 17-10 to Munster at half-time, O’Gara rubbing in the humiliation with a splendid conversion.
The defensive horrors spanned half-time. Twice in the opening seconds of the second half, Biarritz made a horrendous hash of catching simple high balls, forcing them to infringe and allowing O’Gara to put over a penalty to make it 20-10. But that was the highwater mark of the Munster performance as Biarritz, slowly and painfully, tried to unleash just some of their potential.
They came back to 20-16 with two penalties from Yachvili and, after 70 minutes, he kicked another to bring his men to within a point.
At that stage, there is no question that every Munster supporter must have been feeling dreadful. But the neutrals did not detect a real danger. There was the odd flash of might and the odd yard of space, notably once when Bobo came in from the blind-side wing up the right. But O’Gara kicked a penalty, Biarritz could not clear the ball out of piles of red shirts in the rucks and the ball was hoofed into the safety of the stands to kick off one of the greatest sporting parties there can ever have been.
It has been a long journey, fraught with disappointment. On the day of realisation, the hoary old sporting rubbish about crowds being worth points to their team came true. It was not a victory won in a grand manner but it was a victory won on and off the field in a joint and stirring enterprise.
STAR MAN: Imanol Harinordoquy (Biarritz)


Munster: S Payne; A Horgan, J Kelly, T Halstead, I Dowling; R O’Gara, P Stringer; M Horan (F Pucciarello 63min), J Flannery, J Hayes, D O’Callaghan, P O’Connell (A Quinlan 76min), D Leamy, D Wallace, A Foley (capt, M O’Driscoll 71min).
Biarritz: N Brusque; J-B Gobelet, P Bidabe, D Traille (F-M Aramburu 53min), S Bobo; J Peyrelongue, D Yachvili; P Balan (Johnston 72min), B August (B Noirot 67min), C Johnston (B Lecouls 63min), J Thion, D Couzinet (O Olibeau 45min), S Betsen, I Harinodoquy, T Lievrèmont (capt, T Dusautoir 52min).
Tries: Halstead 17, Stringer 32
Conversions: O’Gara (2). Penalties: O’Gara (3)
Try: Bobo 3
Conversion: Yachvili. Penalties: Yachvili (4)
Referee: C White (England). Attendance: 74,534

Cork Boy

Could it be that the man is slightly jealous?

Snickers Man

My we're sensitive little souls.

Jones can be a lot more ungracious and embittered than that. (He is Welsh, after all) I though the article was quite complimentary to Munster. How can you take issue with his describing Stringer's try as a monumental defensive lapse? It WAS. There was NO cover on the blind side.

Fair play to Stringer for spotting the gap and going for it but somebody else in the Sunday Times pointed out that perhaps Biarritz had over analysed videos of Munster to the extent that they thought (with some considerable justification) that there's no point defending against a blindside break from Stringer because he never makes them. Therefore Bobo was allowed to leave the wing without somebody screaming at him to get back. Or at least reminding Betsen that it was now his responsibility to police the blind side.

Jones' other points were fair, I thought. In particular the desirability of having a ref who can speak French taking charge of games involving French teams. Mind you, so far as I know the Anglohone refs who speak the best French are all Irish (McHugh, Rolland). Perhaps it's time to send some more English,Scottish and Welsh refs to the Alliance Francaise.

Some other quotes from Jones's article:


from somewhere deep down in that bottomless well of their passion, they found the spirit and the tackles to hold out and take the Heineken European Cup ........

... Nobody on earth can begrudge them. They won the trophy they have coveted for so long. On the run of play they deserved to, and they did so as part of an absolutely magnificent occasion

......Munster’s heroes were liberally dotted about. Not even their wildest dreamers would claim they have much in the way of attacking brilliance, but Trevor Halstead was wonderfully influential with his strength in the middle of the field. .

...Paul O’Connell and the Munster lineout which kept them going. They managed to keep some sort of hold in the scrum and, in the first half especially, when their driving around the fringes was so splendid, the likes of Denis Leamy and Jerry Flannery were marvellous. As an exercise in making the most of things and refusing to be parted with what is almost regarded as a birthright, it was masterly.

..........Munster were then able to establish themselves, first due to their own excellent organisation and driving, and second because they netted a whole succession of breaks from the refereeing.

.............It was not a victory won in a grand manner but it was a victory won on and off the field in a joint and stirring enterprise.



What's so terrible about all that?

Teg Veece

I think you missed the point of what I was saying about Jones's attitude towards Stringer. The guy was immense yesterday, earned MOTM, dicated play, supplied O'Gara with top rate ball for the whole match was a continual thorn in Biarritz's side. Yet SJ only makes reference to him once. And even then it was just to say that he crossed the line. What more does Stringer have to do to get some recognition off the man?

And you can see how much it hurts SJ to compliment Munster even with those quotes you posted there. Everytime he says something positive about the team, a low dig isn't far behind.

thebaz

Glad to see others apart from "Snicker Man", find his reporting totally biased , to the point of being racist . Todays article was not his usual anti Irish crap, but in the past he has lambased Stringer and O'Gara , and how poor the Irish team is , and we just basically are blessed with the luck of the blarney .He fumed when O'Gara went with Lions.

These are the bits that peeved me today, and I am Leinster not Munster .

"I also found rather disturbing the one-sided nature of Chris White’s performance as referee." Common Jones rant that ref always favours Irish teams.

"The truth is that, for a team of their basic talents, Biarritz had Munster there for the taking in the second half. There was the odd Munster drive and there were an awful lot of decisions against Biarritz. " Another anti Munster rant, basically saying they are an average team , helped by the ref.

What have the Irish done to Jones , oh maybe its the fact we beat his beloved Wales and England, and oh how many Welsh teams have won the Heineken cup ?
Grow up Mr. Jones

Snickers Man

Well I don't buy the Sunday Times every week so I'm not hugely up to speed with every one of Mr Jones' rants. Though I have come across some of them in the past. Like I said, and as I think you agree, he has been infintely less gracious in the past than the quoted article revealed him to be.

Mind you, if growing up is what's required, I think some people should realise that just because you win a trophy and have a nice reportoire of songs that sound good when performed by a terrace choir does not imply that everybody has to love you for it.

And so what if they don't? What do you, or I for that matter, care what some cantankerous old Welshman thinks?

Webbs

Spare a thought for us Welsh supporters as if you read his colmumn he is spectacularly up the arses of the English and Guinness Premiership, you'll find he has nothing positive to say about Wales and Welsh Rugby ( and thats not an invitation to agree with him ) you'd at least think a Welsh journo would be a litlle biased in our favour!!

On a different note, congratulations to Munster and esp. the fans, who from my mates in Cardiff said it was a tremendous day and atmosphere, nearly up there with the GS atmosphere seriously though a well deserved win, so glad Biarritz didn't win as their last 3 matches in the HC have been so negative, what happened to french flair!!

Snickers Man

Webbs wrote:

Spare a thought for us Welsh supporters as if you read his colmumn he is spectacularly up the arses of the English and Guinness Premiership, you'll find he has nothing positive to say about Wales and Welsh Rugby ( and thats not an invitation to agree with him ) you'd at least think a Welsh journo would be a litlle biased in our favour!!

I know that he has been a trenchant critic of the Celtic League and of the consolidation of the top Welsh teams into the Scarlets, Blues, Ospreys and Dragons. What do you think of that?

Far be it from me to tell the Welsh how to run their game but I think in the long run,the Celtic League feeding into the Heineken Cup holds outthe best hope for rugby in all three Celtic countries. We are each too small to prosper in our individual countries with limited populations. At least the CL offers the opportunity for the best Welsh players to earn a living playing their rugby in Wales, and gives Welsh rugby supporters the opportunity to support Welsh teams.

European rugby needed somebody from outside England and France to win the Heineken Cup. Munster's victory was good for the game in general. The English and French, who have adopted the model where clubs have primacy, are business driven to the point where they are seeking increased short term gain at the risk of ruining the game at large.

If and when Munster fade, it is vital that another Celtic team, or two, step up to fill the void. Naturally I would hope it would be Leinster, but a strong Llanelli or Cardiff challenging the Leicesters and Toulouses of this world would run a strong second preference.

Crash

Munster winning also kinda scuppers the French English attempt to wring more money out of the HC just a little bit.

Webbs

I couldn't agree more, as much as it may hurt either Ireland Wales or Scotland I think that the top 8 of the Celtic league should qualify irrespective of nationality. Will make the CL a proper competitive league, you could see Munster (and several others) using the CL for the past few seasons as purely warm up for the HC.
The Ospreys (my team for my sins) have had nothing really to play for most of the season and if it meant that it came down to the wire at the end of the season to get that 8th place then I'd prefer that to the damp squib of this season.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Teg Veece

Fair play to the Sunday Times for printing these...

Irish Sport Letters
Even by his own standards of usual anti-Irish bias Stephen Jones has outdone himself in his report on the Heineken Cup final. Bobo stepped on to the whitewash not once but twice before scoring. Both moments were shown repeatedly in the stadium and on television. Any positive comments on Munster’s performance seemed to be based more on heart and desire than any amount of skill. I dread to think of Jones’ glee had Munster failed to hold on.

John Murphy, Dublin 4

Notwithstanding a few perfunctory plaudits cast in Munster’s direction, their success, in Stephen Jones’ view, owed more to the ‘rampaging limitations’ of Biarritz and the one-sided nature of Chris White’s refereeing than any effort or creativity on Munster’s part. This report was uniquely mean-spirited, unprofessional and ultimately sad.

PJ McDermott, Westport, Co Mayo

I have read much of the commentary in the Irish and English press on the Heineken Cup final. There was a similar theme throughout: praise for Munster’s performance and agreement that the hard-fought win was very much deserved. I understand that the French press reports concurred. Stephen Jones appears to be the one exception. The questions he raises about Chris White are grossly unfair to the referee and to both teams.

Justin Barry, via e-mail

Your coverage of Munster’s magnificent and historic victory was so comprehensive and informative that I am prepared to overlook the matter of Mr Jones failing to give Peter Stringer due acclaim for his wonderful performance.

Eamonn McGrath, Lucan, Co Dublin

Stephen Jones made a Biarritz player man of the match in the Heineken Cup final. The rest of the world gave it to Peter Stringer. Mr Jones blamed Munster’s second try on a horrible defensive error. It was. But the rest of us preferred to praise Stringer for a brilliant and intuitive solo effort. When Biarritz scored their try it was very clear to everybody (except one) the scorer had his foot in touch. Guess who. Stephen claims the referee was biased towards Munster. He was the only one to make that claim.

Ian Hutton, Barcelona

Do you consider Stephen Jones’ match report balanced and unbiased, or grudging in the extreme, ungracious and even vicious? He clearly resents that anybody outside the UK should challenge what he views as the natural superiority of his countrymen.

Liam Hayes, Rosslare, Co Wexford

Munster’s magnificent victory was the proudest moment of my sporting life, from which emerged one simple message: alone it stands no more.

Peter Murray, Abbeydorney, Co Kerry

The utterly disparaging, biased and belittling report by Stephen Jones was just the latest in a series that has emanated from his keyboard over the past 10 years. His peers in all the other English and Welsh Sundays were generous and gracious in their reporting, not only of the game but of the ambiance that 65,000 Munster supporters brought to the occasion. But not the bold Mr Jones. Can he really have been the only journalist to see that Chris White screwed Biarritz and that Peter Stringer did not deserve man of the match?

Des Smyth, Mount Merrion, Co Dublin

I bought The Sunday Times today for the sole purpose of reading how Stephen Jones’ anti-Irish, anti-Munster and anti-Stringer bias would stand up. Once again, he did not fail to deliver. I knew he would be unable to credit Stringer for his well-taken try, so I hoped he would explain it by the good work in the scrum from John Hayes, which required Serge Betsen to stay bound. Instead he charges Biarritz, after some harsh refereeing, with ‘one of the most appalling defensive horrors’ of the century.

David MacDonald, via e-mail

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

thebaz

Maybe Mr. Jones will get the message, and hopefully his bosses will give him a good ticking off, for his anti-Irish rascisim , as they embark on trying to become no. 1 Sunday in Ireland.
He despises Stringer and O'Gara for some unknown reason .
In general the Sports coverage in the Sunday Times is excellent, thats why i buy the paper , and they have other good and balanced journalists. Peter O'Reilly is usually good for the Irish rugby .

Snickers Man

thebaz wrote:

Maybe Mr. Jones will get the message, and hopefully his bosses will give him a good ticking off, for his anti-Irish rascisim , as they embark on trying to become no. 1 Sunday in Ireland.

Racism??? FFS!!!!!

Get a hold of yourself.

Racism is a serious issue, not to be diluted into a catcall aimed at somebody from outside Munster who saw fit to write a dispassionate article which gave full credit where it was due for Munster's victory without falling into the same red-hazed glow that their supporters are currently bathed in.

And so they should be. They're entitled to it. But not everybody's a Munster fan. And nor should they(we) be. So we won't all have the same instinctive hero worship, or should that be 'ligind' worship?, that Munster fans have. So what?

So Jones might have mentioned Stringer more fully. But he didn't. Big deal.

And for that he's called a racist?????

I think you owe him an apology.

thebaz

hey Snickers - for your information i support Leinster , but am an Irish supporter first and foremost -- and i have been reading Jones anti Irish tirade for years -- in my view it is rascist -- anti Irish West Brit balony -- he constantly puts down Irish performances , and has a particular gripe against Stringer and O'Gara for some unknown reason -- so get a grip yourself, and support your countrymen -- and show a bit of respect to Munster , apart from giving Leinster a good hiding , they actually went out and won something .

RuggieBear

thebaz wrote:

hey Snickers - for your information i support Leinster , but am an Irish supporter first and foremost -- and i have been reading Jones anti Irish tirade for years -- in my view it is rascist -- anti Irish West Brit balony -- he constantly puts down Irish performances , and has a particular gripe against Stringer and O'Gara for some unknown reason -- so get a grip yourself, and support your countrymen -- and show a bit of respect to Munster , apart from giving Leinster a good hiding , they actually went out and won something .

Snickersman and thebaz,

If you turn this into another mUnster v Leinster ****e thread i'll ban you

Snickers Man

thebaz wrote:

hey Snickers - for your information i support Leinster ,

Good man yerself!

thebaz wrote:

and i have been reading Jones anti Irish tirade for years -- in my view it is rascist -- anti Irish West Brit balony --

Condescending and begrudging maybe. That's hardly racist.

thebaz wrote:

and show a bit of respect to Munster , apart from giving Leinster a good hiding , they actually went out and won something .

I think Munster deserve utmost respect and they do have mine. They fully deserved their HC win and to be congratulated for it. I have even done so (somewhere on this board). Albeit through gritted teeth.

But that DOESN'T mean I have to like them. I really really really reallly want Leinster to beat the smug gits next season. And that's not racist, or disrespectful, or whatever other pejorative term you want to throw up. It's honest to goodness healthy rivalry.

ruggiebear wrote:

Snickersman and thebaz,

If you turn this into another mUnster v Leinster ****e thread i'll ban you

How we doin' so far, Ruggie?

Crash

Completely off topic so far...

Snickers Man

No it isn't.

The topic seems to be 'How big a bollox is Stephen Jones?'

The general consensus is 'quite a big one actually' but I would not go so fas as to call him a racist. And my general point is 'Why get so hot under the collar because some writer of a different nationality with different allegiances and preferences stops short of writing an utterly sycophantic article about Munster?'

If he's half as bigoted and one-eyed as people make out, it must have hurt him a lot to say the complimentary things he did say about Munster.

thebaz

Don't want to get banned - so i put out the hand of freindship to Snickers - TBH i think the threat of getting banned is a bit steep -- i initiated the thread -- and believe any realistic discussion on Irish rugby, will have to have a Munster /Leinster angle (maybe Ulster after friday) -- agree shouldn't get personal -- but my point about Jones had nothing to do with Leinster / Munster rivalry , it was about anti Irish sentiment - i don't remember myself geting involved in any Leinster / Munster rivalry before . If i have broken any rules post back or PM me . No hard fealings , and you can close / lock thread , rather than ban me.

Snickers Man

And I think TheBaz is a top man too.

So we disagree on the extent to which Stephen Jones talks out his own backside!!!

What's the point of a discussion board that doesn't allow differences of opinion to be aired?

daveirl

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thebaz

steve jones must be reading boards -- his reviews of ireland matches in NZ have been cringingly positive -- hes covering his beloved england, as they go from bad to worse in Oz ... must hurt to have your professional assessment of Northern Hemisphere rugby turned upside down