How the DCMNR produces BS

eircomtribunal

Mobile phone company 3 came up with a pre-pay product. The offer "3pay" – how funny – is completely unimaginative and will bum on the market just as happened with their bill pay offering.

Here's how the DCMNR, for reason of desperation to produce any positive press releases, I would assume, pimps this non-event, and how the press repeats that mindless pimping:

3 introduces the following new pre-pay service: 18 cent per minute calls to other 3 mobile subscribers (a mere handful or dozen of thousands), 35 cent per minute to other mobile numbers., for a short time a 3 cent per minute promotional rate applies for calls to other 3 numbers applies.

3 decides to present its offering with the now seemingly obligatory misleading slogan:
3c
talk, text & video all day, everyday.
on the justification of a tiny footnote (at the bottom of the page, scrolling involved, not asterixed to from the slogan, incorrectly stating "to ROI mobiles" instead of "to other 3 ROI mobiles") explaining:
* 3 cent applies to 3-to3 RoI calls & texts only. Promotional rate until 18.08.06. Price thereafter is 18c for voice & video minutes and 9c for texts to R0I mobiles. Service limitations apply.

So far so bad.

In comes the DCMNR and pimps that service with the most misleading spin, quote from the DCMNR press release:

“The announcement today by 3 Ireland that it is to launch a new pre-pay service is good news for Irish mobile phone users,” said Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Noel Dempsey T.D., this morning.
“3 cent text messages to any network along with 3 cent voice and video calls will mean that Irish customers of the network will have more choice and Irish people generally will have more competition,” he added.

No footnotes, no short term promotional offer, no restriction of the 3 cent per minute charge to calls within the network.

And the next day it's in the media. Like here:

Dempsey hails healthy competition in mobile phone market
16/05/2006 - 14:20:34

More competition in the Irish mobile phone market is good news for Irish consumers, Communications Minister Noel Dempsey said today.

New operator, 3 Ireland today launched ’3Pay’ – a new pre-paid service which offers three cent text messages to any network along with three cent voice and video calls.

We can rightly blame the media for uncritically propagating such stuff, but we should really react to the source, the DCMNR.
3 will do all they can to spin their dismal offering.
But what the hell is the DCMNR doing to support this misleading spin?
Why should they degrade themselves to ass-wipes of industry.

P.

viking

I have to say I was surprised when I got the DCMNR's Press Release about 3's new service in my inbox. I felt it was wrong for them to publically promote a private company's product in such a blatent way.

I'm even more surprised now since I've realised that the 3 cent offer is a promotional price for a limited time only.

Its possible the DCMNR were led up the garden path on the actual details surrounding this promotion, either way what they did is wrong IMO.

cgarvey

Janey, that's a pretty poor show from DCMNR.

eircomtribunal

There are two telling articles in today's Sunday Times about "3". One about scepticism about the general 3 operation here and one long interview based article about the Irish operation and the introduction of the "3pay", 3's prepay offering, that was sheepishly pimped by the DCMNR.

The writer of the article falls for the same guff as the DCMNR:

After an initial three-month promotional offer of 3c per minute for on-network calls (to other 3 customers) and 3c texts, its regular tariffs compare very favourably to those of O2, Vodafone and Meteor.

Well, it's not quite as bad as the DCMNR pimping, but he should have checked just how "favourably" the 3 tariffs compare: 18 cent per minute within the 3 network – figures for customer numbers are "closely guarded" – 35 cent per minute to other networks; how favourable is that?

Perhaps 3 boss Fuller should take more time spending here rather than:

I come over to Ireland twice a month.

P.

MayoExplosion

eircomtribunal wrote:

but he should have checked just how "favourably" the 3 tariffs compare: 18 cent per minute within the 3 network – figures for customer numbers are "closely guarded" – 35 cent per minute to other networks; how favourable is that?

Well there is some truth in that...

Peak calls to other networks
Vodafone: 65c/min
O2: 63c/min
3: 35c/min
Meteor: 20c/min

Peak calls to own network
Vodafone: 50c/min
O2: 55c/min
3: 3c/min until 18/08, then 18c/min
Meteor: 20c/min

So it's quite good, unless you're nocturnal.

eircomtribunal

I don't think that would be a fair comparison of prices. You are not comparing like with like by choosing the peak charges of O2 and vodafone.
How do you figure in off-peak charges, O2's 1 cent per minute within-network week-end rates, vodafone's "stop the clock" offer, the discounts on top-up and offers on phones with huge call credits included etc.?

The operators have deliberately made such a confusing mixture of offers, that is is impossible to make intelligent price-per-minute comparisons.

ComReg's callcost website is not the solution either.

We had a similar consumer misinformation situation decades ago with the banks, until they were ordered to always inform about the annual interest with deposits and loans, which made a level comparison possible.

P.

Blaster99

There is no question that 3's post-pay minute bundles are the best in the country by a wide margin. I don't know why anyone would bother with pre-pay so I can't really comment on that. I would hazard a guess that 3 is probably not all that interested in the pre-pay market. DCMNR's comments were not clever, regardless. A good thing with 3 is that they're bringing out new services and are trying to exploit the potential of 3G.

oscarBravo

I understand they use Voda's network for 2G roaming. If Voda coverage wasn't so completely pants chez moi, I'd probably switch. It's killing me to stay with Meteor now they're owned by Eircom.

eircomtribunal

Blaster99 wrote:

There is no question that 3's post-pay minute bundles are the best in the country by a wide margin.

I am not so sure about that. Look for example at the vodafone offer

switch to Vodafone Perfect Fit 400 or 600 and all calls to anyone in Ireland on Vodafone are free for life. That means calls between over 2 million people - all free! Because there are more Pay Monthly customers with Vodafone, we can give everyone better value.

So for the € 69 (the Perfect Fit 400 bundle) you get 400 minutes to anywhere and all calls to vodafone numbers are free. I know its a limited promotional offer, and I am not really into the whole mobile tariff thingy, just want to make a point that
a) Three will not make inroads with what they offer (including their "walled garden" 3G offerings) and therefore keep their customers numbers a closely guarded secret. A recent Sunday Times interview with the UK/Ireland 3 boss was not at all convincing that he understood the situation.
b) The price comparison situation is a mess. At a time when pubs have to announce their drink prices to the last penny and butchers are brought to court when they fail to also indicate the per kg price of their cuts etc., the communications regulator should regulate for comparable pricing – or at least demand that operators adhere to Comreg's price information guidelines.

P.

Urban Weigl

If you know in advance how many minutes you will use each month, 3's post-pay offering is quite good. E.g. if you know you will use 400 minutes each month, it makes sense to get 3's VideoTalk 400 package for €45 a month (works out at 11.25c a minute).

But, and this is a big but, if you use less minutes in a month, you'll end up spending substantially more per minute, as minutes do not carry over! And if you spend more time on the phone than expected, you again pay more per minute.

The problem is, most of the mobile phone companies here do not offer simple to understand rates. Everything is either packaged, based on a set number of minutes, or fortified with special offers that will make any comparisons impossible.

Do you call o2 a lot? Well, maybe you should go with o2 and their unlimited plan. For €20 a month, you get unlimited calls to o2 for free, though calls to other mobiles are 20 cents a minute... Or do you call a lot of Vodafone customers? Maybe you should get a Vodafone pre-pay phone. When you call another Vodafone customer, you only pay for the first 3 minutes. Or maybe get the Vodafone 400 package, where you get 400 minutes to other networks, and unlimited free calls within the vodafone network, for 69 euros? It's for life, but you gotta sign up before the end of August. So if you call one of the other 2 million vodafone customers for 60 minutes, you only pay for the first 3. o2 pre-pay offer 1c per minute weekend rates, so if you tend to call other people on the o2 network at weekends, that makes a lot of sense (for example, I talked to a friend of mine on o2 last weekend for half an hour, and the entire call only cost me 30 cents). o2 also let you choose when peak and off peak rates apply, so you can set it up so that the majority of your calls are off-peak. And that's just scratching the iceberg. The closest thing there is to "simple" is Meteor: 20 cents per minute, no matter what network or time of day. That definitely makes sense if your minutes tend to vary a lot from month to month, and you're calling a random mix of different networks and landlines. Although you miss out on really cheap rates like o2 (1c a minute all weekend to all o2 customers).

I didn't expect you to read all that. My point is: it's impossible to compare. Literally you need to analyse your phone bills, and than spend a few days figuring out which network is best for you, or if you should get two or three phones on different networks to get the best rates!

Blaster99

Before I switched to 3 I checked my O2 bill and concluded I would halve the bill even if I didn't use all the minutes in the bundle. Three months into the service, I've halved the bill and I'm using the phone a lot more. It's not really that difficult to figure this out. I also have access to 3G services that O2 would dream of having, and they're largely free. 3's walled garden is a bit odd but with very exceptions I have been able to access sites I've been interested in. For free. I can also make calls to and from the UK with my call bundle, which I believe is unique. The only bad point with 3 is that their roaming outside the British Isles sucks donkeys.

Voda does some very good business packages and have the best roaming deals and from my experience with dealing with all the different operators in Ireland, they're the most professional of the lot.

watty

I uses pay as you go as I consistently spend less per month than the CHEAPEST so called bill pay package.

As far as I can see there is no sensible pay by bill for what you have already used package like there is for Electricity or landline. Except my Mobile bill is LOWER than the Eircom line rental. The Eircom line is going!


I suppose the only way to compare would be to actually use each network for a couple of months. Unless you are like me using so little it is impossible. I can't see how you could compare at all unless you log the last 6 months calls in detail and feed them into a computer database/program.

Blaster99

You look at the call summary on the bill which says the number of minutes used. Then you look what other operators charge for those number of minutes. It's not rocket science.

You lose about €100 on phone subsidies with pre-pay and pay about 50% more for the calls. I also detest pre-pay accounts on principle. I like to make calls when I need to make calls and not have to worry about and waste time on poxy top-ups.

JohnC.

Pre-pay may not be to your liking, but it is very useful for some of us. I use my phone very little. I have not bought any credit since February 2001, when O2 stopped the mandatory 30 (or 60) day top-ups. I had built up a lot of credit up to that point and have not bought more since. I would have run out, but I upgraded my phone which came with another €90 credit, which I am still living off. That's over 5 years without buying credit. Imagine how much a bill phone would have cost me.

Urban Weigl

You should also analyse which networks the numbers you call are in, as that can make a huge difference. Some examples, if are a heavy use and spend hours on the phone every month, and the majority of those calls go into the o2 network, you might look into getting o2 Unlimited, which for €20 a month gives you unlimited free calls to the o2 network. You can than also take maximum advantage of that by calling people on their o2 phone, instead of their landline.

Or do you spend up to 400 minutes or so calling random networks, and than also a big chunk of your calls go to Vodafone? Maybe you should get Vodafone 400 for €69. That gives you 400 minutes into other networks and landlines, and unlimited free calls to all of Vodafone. It's also great if you spend a lot of time roaming, because with Vodafone Passport you just pay a 79 cent connection fee for calls you receive and make while roaming in 16 countries.

Or maybe you spend less time on the phone? What about o2 pre-pay, Meteor pre-pay or Vodafone pre-pay? They all have their advantages and disadvantages. With o2, you can call anybody on o2 for 1c a minute at the weekends, and all other networks for 12c. You can also choose when your off-peak time is, so you can reduce most of your calls to 15c or 19c a minute, depending on what time you call. That is further reduced by the fact that you get extra % by topping up online, and by upgrading your phone (they sometimes run offers where you can upgrade you phone for €59, and get €90 call credit). And if you roam, again, Vodafone Passport even works on pre-pay. Pay a 79c connection fee for making and taking calls, no per minute roaming fees like the other networks mostly have. Oh, and with stop-the-clock you only pay for the first 3 minutes of a call up to 60 minutes. Or maybe you should look into Meteor? They have the cheapest GPRS rates by far on a pre-pay account, so you can use it to occasionally retrieve email with your laptop on the go without paying quite as much. They charge 20c a minute into all networks at all times, but they have an offer where if you switch to them you get 10 euros of free credit by topping up by 20 euros each month. That means that a third of your credit is free, so effectively while the offer runs, you're only paying 13.3c for calls into all networks!

You cannot just compare minutes.

Blaster99

The cheapest WAP is 3 and they also have the most free content available of any operator in Ireland. The cheapest unbundled GPRS is O2. Meteor is the most expensive as they charge for both time and usage, the last I looked. Vodafone's and O2's GPRS bundles are about the same.

I prefer to just make a call instead of worrying about what time of day it is or what network the user is on. The free Voda-to-Voda deals are very useful for companies and I know a couple that use Vodafone for that reason alone. Less useful for individuals. Certainly in my case, my bill has gone from about €45-50 to €25 with 3 and that's with making more calls. I think you'll find that most people who've made the switch have experienced similar savings. To say that 3 offers nothing in the market is complete pants, I'm sorry to say. And that's before taking into consideration their significantly more innovative 3G services.

Urban Weigl

Vodafone charge 2c per kilobyte, o2 charge 1c per kilobyte and Meteor charge 0.5c per kilobyte on pre-pay (for GPRS). Meteor do not charge per minute for GPRS. They may have in the past, but I know they have not done so since at least January.

I used to pay for a megabyte-bundle, but I've found this to work out cheaper overall, since I might use it more one month and than hardly use it for a few months.

By shopping around, I've been able to reduce my average monthly bill from 150 euros a month to 25.

Again, I never said that 3's offer was a bad one. Especially if you all the UK, and know you're going to use up most of your minutes every month, it's quite good. It really depends how and when you use your phone. My point is simply that you cannot just count the minutes, it is (unfortunately) more complex than that. Basically, what I'd recommend to anybody is that you carefully review all the options, and analyse your bill. See when you make most of your calls, what networks they go to, and use that information to figure out which network(s) offer you the best value.

Urban Weigl

By the way, I was going to switch to 3 a while ago. What stopped me was that I want to be able to use it for business, e.g. access email, SSH and web sites. Their pre-packaged "walled garden" would be nothing more than a toy to me. I also do not call the UK much, so while I think they have a great offer if you do, for me it wasn't relevant.

If they had been able to give me access to the internet instead of their "walled garden", I would have gone with them.

Blaster99

Yep it's pretty remarkable that 3 doesn't do straight GPRS access with a data card or whatever. I've never heard a compelling argument as to why not.

Urban Weigl

With Meteor, I pay 13.3c per minute. If I switched to 3, I would theoretically pay as little as 12.5c per minute on their €25 plan, which while it sounds like slightly less, because I cannot carry minutes over, and pay 30c per minute if I go over, actually works out at closer to 20c on average (for me at least). With Meteor, I might only pay a few euros one month, and 30 the next. I never lose minutes, and also never go over minutes. Granted, it's a special offer, but once I'm out of credit, I can switch to another network and/or switch back again.

Meteor also offer me GPRS data for 0.5c per kilobyte. That's the cheapest on a pre-pay plan (o2 charge twice as much, Vodafone three times as much!). It's good enough for emergency business use.

Even without a data card, if 3 could offer me access to the internet and not just their walled garden, I'd switch in a heartbeat. After all, I can hook up my notebook via bluetooth. I wonder if others would switch over to 3 as well, if they offered that? I'm not against them providing their own content, but to me it would be little more than a toy. Fun, yes. Good for business? No.

Blaster99

What Meteor plan comes anywhere near 3's 200 minutes for €25? The Meteor Talk 200 plan costs €40.

Urban Weigl

I agree, Meteor's post-pay plans are dire. 3 is clearly the much better deal here.

I was comparing how much I pay with Meteor pre-pay (13.3c per minute at all times to all networks). It would usually be 20c, but since I got my credit 1/3rd cheaper, it works out as 13.3. And my credit never expires, so unlike buying a set of minutes, I don't lose anything by not using up my minutes.

It sucks that it's so complicated and hard to understand. We need simpler rates that a sane human can actually comprehend.

bealtine

Urban Weigl wrote:

It sucks that it's so complicated and hard to understand. We need simpler rates that a sane human can actually comprehend.

The charging system is designed specifically to:

1 confuse the customer
2 disallow valid comparisons
3 ripoff the customer

It's obviously succeeeding...

cgarvey

Lads lads .. mobile forum for this, no?

Hacketry

Getting back to the topic of DCMNR plugging a product, I found it shocking that Dempsey would allow his staff to issue a release with a canned quote saying he welcomed 3 Mobile's latest product. Surely that's not part of the minister's job to applaud the latest gimmick from HUTCHINSON WHOMPOA - regardless of its prima facia merits.

Fair play to the many Irish news outlets that did publish that quote without comment. Sometimes reportage says more than any analysis.