Rules: Small Blind all in (insufficient raise) to Big Blind

JJ28

Howya lads, long time lurker, first time poster.... I like your board

I did try to google this but I couldn't find an answer

I was playing in a game last night with blinds @ 1000/2000

UTG calls, small blind all in for 2500....

Question: Is the big blind allowed to raise in this position ?

I appreciate that if this was post flop he wouldn't be able to raise but I argued that BB must have option to raise as if SB had called with 2000 then BB would have option....

Surely BB always has the option ?

brianmc

JJ28 wrote:

Howya lads, long time lurker, first time poster.... I like your board

I did try to google this but I couldn't find an answer

I was playing in a game last night with blinds @ 1000/2000

UTG calls, small blind all in for 2500....

Question: Is the big blind allowed to raise in this position ?

I appreciate that if this was post flop he wouldn't be able to raise but I argued that BB must have option to raise as if SB had called with 2000 then BB would have option....

Surely BB always has the option ?

Anybody who hasn't had a chance to act yet can raise. In other words - yes.

Assuming that the BB does not raise then UTG can only call or fold.

Hitman Actual

brianmc wrote:

Anybody who hasn't had a chance to act yet can raise. In other words - yes.

I think I've asked this before, but I cant remember the answer: does the fact that the BB has put in his big blind not consitute an act? It is a bet after all, even if it is blind.

brianmc

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think I've asked this before, but I cant remember the answer: does the fact that the BB has put in his big blind not consitute an act? It is a bet after all, even if it is blind.

It's considered a forced bet. I don't know what way you want to interpret that but in the under raise scenario above it doesn't count as an act.

Hitman Actual

brianmc wrote:

It's considered a forced bet. I don't know what way you want to interpret that but in the under raise scenario above it doesn't count as an act.

Good enough, thanks

JJ28

I'd appreciate it if anyone could find a definitive answer to this in print/online.....

The Tournament Director ruled that the BB couldn't raise....

I wasn't actually involved in this hand but I'd be pissed if I had pocket rockets in the same situation in the future & he gave the same ruling

Cheers

John

brianmc

JJ28 wrote:

I'd appreciate it if anyone could find a definitive answer to this in print/online.....

The Tournament Director ruled that the BB couldn't raise....

I wasn't actually involved in this hand but I'd be pissed if I had pocket rockets in the same situation in the future & he gave the same ruling

Cheers

John

Hmmm... I'm not going to go off and look for it online but I can tell you with absolute certainty that based on what you described above the TD's ruling was incorrect.

JJ28

Cheers Brian,

Didn't want you to waste your time googling but if someone has come across this before and has the link I'd appreciate their help

ollyk1

JJ28 wrote:

I'd appreciate it if anyone could find a definitive answer to this in print/online.....

The Tournament Director ruled that the BB couldn't raise....

I wasn't actually involved in this hand but I'd be pissed if I had pocket rockets in the same situation in the future & he gave the same ruling

Cheers

John

I'm not going to go hunting online either because its not worth the ether its written on but I can tell you with absolute certainty I'd never play in that tournament again. Name and shame the TD. Terrible decision. You always have the option to act at least once from any position. A forced blind bet is never considered acting.

Welcome to Boards by the way JJ28!

brianmc

no problem

5starpool

JJ28 wrote:

Cheers Brian,

Didn't want you to waste your time googling but if someone has come across this before and has the link I'd appreciate their help

There is no need for a google link. This is one rule where there is no interpretation or local factor involved. The BB did not get a chance to act in this pot, and must be given the same call,fold,raise option as anyone else.

This is a clear as a the clearest thing in county clare (nearly there.......)

Your TD was wrong and you should enlighten him to the error of his was or never play in this (presumably) pub event again. I hope it was just not explained well enough to the TD as anyone even pretending to officiate as a TD should be aware of this situation.

cooker3

You don't need to consult the rulebook to know clearly the common sense rule is bb can still raise as he has yet to act.
How a TD can look at that situation and not rule correctly is beyond me really.

RoundTower

JJ28 wrote:

Cheers Brian,

Didn't want you to waste your time googling but if someone has come across this before and has the link I'd appreciate their help

Having worked as a TD and a better one than the guy in your tournament, you can take it from me that everyone else is of course right. The relevant rule can be found on this page of Bob Ciaffone's rulebook.

gerire

Name and Shame TBH!!!!

kickintheteeth

JJ28 wrote:

I appreciate that if this was post flop he wouldn't be able raise!

Surely BB always has the option ?

i presuming this is if SB checked, BB bet 2000, back round to SB who goes all in for 2500, then no he can't re-raise, but preflop, he can 100% raise. TD is an idiot, where was it?

Pokerevents

It was'nt you roundtower by any chance!

5starpool

kickintheteeth wrote:

i presuming this is if SB checked, BB bet 2000, back round to SB who goes all in for 2500, then no he can't re-raise, but preflop, he can 100% raise. TD is an idiot, where was it?

You mean if small blind called for 2000 leaving 500 behind (spose it may happen in some planets) and the big blind raised with UTG calling the raise then sb went in for 500 more? In this case BB would have already raised for more than the all in.

I also presume you mean if sb went all in on the above sequence for a total of 4500 (for example) after BB raise. In this case neither BB nor UTG would have an option to raise.