calling all barristers

catherine22

Hey, im hoping someone can help me, im studying law and maybe want to be a barrister. does anyone know what being a barrister is like, i mean are the hours long, is there a lot of work involved, i know the money is crap at first, but please tell me it gets better, i have spoken to a couple of barristers, but i want to get a few opinions, oh and what kings inns like-is it really all posh people. thanks

hullaballoo

I'm not sure that there are too many barristers that have the time to post in this forum to be honest.

I can only tell you what I know myself, and that is that it is very hard work at first, and it is difficult to gain a reputation quickly unless you are very very good. That said, the Competition Authority are momentarily implementing changes to the system to allow barristers to advertise and to establish chambers with other barristers, which should make it a lot easier for those people who do not have too many legal contacts.

Thirdfox

I was told that it was still quite an "old boys club" and that you'll need to have the right contacts to succeed... could be wrong but it does seem that way anyway.

(I'm not a barrister )

Trojan911

catherine22 wrote:

oh and what kings inns like-is it really all posh people. thanks

As posh and as learned as you can get. But a lot of work to get there and stinks of loadsa money.....


TJ911...

Thirdfox

You have to "take commons" as far as I know twice a year... e.g. get dressed up in a gown to have expensive dinner with teachers and other students... you tell me is that a "posh" tradition or not?

EducatedGuess

Kings Inns is a very closed shop and contacts are very important, make sure you make friends in your class, although that said it seems to be the same in the Law Society. Dinings are held throughout the year and its all part of the networking. There is a strict pecking order and as a student you are at the bottom. That said it is well worth it in the end money can be very good, and it takes about 7 years to 'get a chair' in the courts. There are so many coming out each year there is just not enough room. Devils last year found it very difficult to get Masters, and remember this is a year you will not get paid, unless your Master is very nice. Saying that there are barristers earning less than they would on the dole. Lecturing is a good way of subsidising your income and once you have your BL colleges will whip you up. Professionally speaking the Solictor's qualification is much more secure regarding income iniatially, but dont make any decisions based on the first couple of years. Yes it is full traditions, yes there are a lot of posh people but if your keen go for it.

Sangre

You basically can only do it if your parents can support you for a few more years while you earn a pittance. Yes contacts are especially crucial in the early stages to get going and being a member of the 'old boys' club can be essential. However if you're good enough you will get recognised and rewarded eventually but it can be that bit harder getting started.

Those who spent their college years in the library will probably regret not getting to the know the class and making contacts when they should have, especially with the would-be solicitors!

Lplated

I wouldn't get too hung up on the notion of 'contacts' with people you were in college with. By definition, as you start your bar career they'll be starting their apprenticeships etc and won't be in a position to give you work anyway. By the time they are in a position to instruct counsel you'll either have built a practice sufficient to maintain you or you won't.

Far more important are the 'contacts' you make while devilling. These are people who will see you in action (doing motions, applications etc..), and you have a real chance of picking up work there.

Most important choice you'll make is your choice of Master. 'Good' ones will give you plenty of 'on your feet' work to do while devilling, will introduce you to solicitors etc..., and will 'talk you up' to people who might give you work.
Problem last year and (allegedly) again this year is that some 200 people are coming down. Traditionally this number was well under 100. By October next year there will be some 2,000 people available for work at the Bar. What you have to remember is that four years ago, when there was only 1,500, and there was no PIAB (which has sucked out about 14,000 cases a year), even then there were plenty people without enough work to sustain full time practice.

The above is not meant to 'scare' you off - merely to advise that the decision to 'go down' to the Four Courts is a much more serious one now. If having considered, inter alia, the above, you do go down, I wish you the best.

padser

Lplated wrote:

I wouldn't get too hung up on the notion of 'contacts' with people you were in college with. By definition, as you start your bar career they'll be starting their apprenticeships etc and won't be in a position to give you work anyway. By the time they are in a position to instruct counsel you'll either have built a practice sufficient to maintain you or you won't.

Yup, apart from not being in a position to throw work your way for the first while, people you make friends with in college are unlikely to stick their own neck out on the line with them only recently installed in a practice themselves by recommending someone they drank with in college.

Sangre

Yeah, even while typing it I knew it wasn't true. I'm just trying to make myself feel better about the uber-nerds in my year who will smoke me in these finals.

Amazotheamazing

The biggest problem (speaking as someone going down the solicitor route) is that too many people are getting qualified in either path.

Darragh29

catherine22 wrote:

Hey, im hoping someone can help me, im studying law and maybe want to be a barrister. does anyone know what being a barrister is like, i mean are the hours long, is there a lot of work involved, i know the money is crap at first, but please tell me it gets better, i have spoken to a couple of barristers, but i want to get a few opinions, oh and what kings inns like-is it really all posh people. thanks

Am thinking along the same lines myself. Am 30, very unhappy in my career and luckily am now in a financial position to be able to put myself through college again, pay fees and support myself at the same time without having to work.

Would any barristers out there recommend doing this at 30???

I should point out that I've been working for about 10 years, have no high flying business contacts or anything like that. If I do this, am I joining some sort of elitest Etonian club where I'll end up with a bit of paper and nothing else after qualifying 'cos I didn't come from the right family or because Daddy didn't play at the right golf course??? Have been down in the Law Library in the Four Courts and this is the impression I get to be honest, but I know I'd love the job and could stick out the course...

focusing

You work hard for either one year or two as a devil, for little or no money. Most barristers then spend most of their time drinking coffee and doing the crossword for a couple of years as they slowly build their practice. If / when your practice takes off, you have to work very hard, since you are a sole trader, so you’ll be doing all your own drafting and preparation for court. (You do get holidays for the months of August & September though.)

Contacts help you get your first case from a solicitor, but only doing a good job on that will get you a second brief. Even if you have no contacts, don’t worry about it; it’s part of your Master’s job to introduce you to solicitors.

While the Competition Authority have made noises about the need to change structures, they don’t have the power to implement regulatory change unilaterally, so don’t expect chambers or a full-colour advertisements in the Law Society Gazette to be a feature of 2006. It’s probably the most competitive market in Ireland, a solicitor in most cases of a relatively general nature will have a choice of hundreds of barristers. There are few professions where there is such a high ratio of practitioners to available work.

King’s Inns is a great institution educationally and socially. There’s a great mix of people of different ages and backgrounds from all over the island. At least a quarter of the students are 30+. Your maturity and business experience will definitely give you an advantage in practice. If you can pay the fees and support yourself, then go for it, you have as good a chance of success as anyone else.

dats_right

Agree with most of what has been said already. Only have a couple of things to add. Firstly, the fees are circa €20,000 for both the Dip and BL courses and the BL is now a full-time day course so no more popping up to Kings Inns after work. And then there are living costs, textbooks, dining, transport, etc to be taken into account. Let me be clear, you will starve to death unless you have a) very rich parents-who don't mind supporting their darling 30 something year old, or b) an awful lot of personal savings and a very understanding spouse or partner who will pay the bills and put food on the table while you chase your dreams.

Secondly, it is now the case that most people who do the BL are not still practising 5 years later. There is a variety of reasons for this, i) some never intended to practice ii) others get well paid jobs in commerce/banking/civil service iii) gave up in sheer desperation having really given it their all to make it and trying to live on 0-15k. iv) some are not up to the intellectual demands of the profession. v) some will come to the stark realisation that the financial rewards are not what the media may have lead them to believe and that even though they probably will eventually make a decent living out of it, it will take too long and that they were making as much money in their last job. And there are many, many more reasons why people will fail.

You need to ask yourself, why are you going to be any different from all the others who tried so very hard to make it and failed. If you are prepared for the blood, sweat, tears, enormous financial risks and think you are different from all the others then I'd say go for it. But, don't say that you haven't been warned!

johnnysmurfman

From what I hear 2006/7 is the last year that they will have a 1 year course. That means someone could do the diploma now and by the time they're ready for the degree it'll be an evening course again, like it used to be, that's something to think about. My advice for Darragh is to do the diploma, that's 2 years and you can do it after work during the day, then see how you feel after the 2 years.

johnnysmurfman

dats_right wrote:

Agree with most of what has been said already. Only have a couple of things to add. Firstly, the fees are circa €20,000 for both the Dip and BL courses and the BL is now a full-time day course so no more popping up to Kings Inns after work. And then there are living costs, textbooks, dining, transport, etc to be taken into account.

On the 1 year course all dining fees and course materials are included in the initial fee, just a point I thought I should make.

catherine22

so i think ive decided to take the plunge and apply for entry for september/october 2007 once i finish my degree but i want 2 do it in one year, will i not be able to if these changes are brought in, and another question- the irsh exam, is that sat whilst u r in Kings Inns so if i get in next September, i will sit in January 2008
Thanks

cramming

Kings Inns is way too expensive!!! But that said the fee for the Barrister-at-Law one year full time course is a whopping €11,600 not €20,000. The fee structure is on the website www.kingsinns.ie

dats_right

dats_right wrote:

Firstly, the fees are circa €20,000 for both the Dip and BL courses

..

Darragh29

johnnysmurfman wrote:

From what I hear 2006/7 is the last year that they will have a 1 year course. That means someone could do the diploma now and by the time they're ready for the degree it'll be an evening course again, like it used to be, that's something to think about. My advice for Darragh is to do the diploma, that's 2 years and you can do it after work during the day, then see how you feel after the 2 years.

Thanks JohnnySM. I'll have to do the diploma first anyway, not having a law degree, and not having a recognised degree anyway, I might be on the back foot applying anyway and might not get a place but this is something I'd accept if it happened. I was looking at the diploma and thought I could do the course while working but the problem with this seems to be that tutorials are at 5PM three days a week, not leaving much time for getting from work to tutorials. Sounds a lot more difficult than I thought, also, the Irish would put me off a bit. Decisions decisions, decisions! ;-)

cramming

johnnysmurfman wrote:

From what I hear 2006/7 is the last year that they will have a 1 year course. That means someone could do the diploma now and by the time they're ready for the degree it'll be an evening course again, like it used to be, that's something to think about. My advice for Darragh is to do the diploma, that's 2 years and you can do it after work during the day, then see how you feel after the 2 years.

Hi johnnysmurfman just wondering where you heard this.... was it from a reliable source? I hadn't heard that at all.... do you know why they are changing it back again and do you know if it will still be vocational based?

johnnysmurfman

I would say that they are going back to evening classes over two years to make the professional course more accessible for those persons who are working. At the moment you have to quit work and study in the Inns full-time for the duration of the course, which makes it hard for lots of people to qualify. Ring the Inns and ask them if it's staying as a full-time course for the next few years, I doubt it will though and there are rumors that this year will be the last of the one year course, it just doesn't seem sustainable to continue churning out barristers every year as they currently are.

catherine22

cramming wrote:

Hi johnnysmurfman just wondering where you heard this.... was it from a reliable source? I hadn't heard that at all.... do you know why they are changing it back again and do you know if it will still be vocational based?

i was jst speaking to someone at kings inns and they siad the 2year course hadnt been confirmed yet but if it was the liklihood is that a day course would be running too (full time)

i want to get it out the way in one year, i dont want to have to work full time and juggle college

focusing

Don't let the Irish exam put you off.

People from all around the World have passed it without having done Irish in school.

sportbilly

I've put off doing the Inns for about 4 years because of the Irish exam and the fact that I didn't do Irish in school.

Since then I've been convinced by people that have sat it that it is nothing to worry about. Also I've decided that if I am going to worry about it I'll worry about it once I start the BL course.

Meanwhile I'll just carry on with the Diploma!

johnnysmurfman

It's no pushover though, plenty of people failed it this year. Years ago it was a bit of a sham but since the new examiner took over it's certainly toughened up, I'd take lessons if I hadn't done Irish before and was intending to do the BL degree in the near future.

a-ha

Darragh29 wrote: »

Am thinking along the same lines myself. Am 30, very unhappy in my career and luckily am now in a financial position to be able to put myself through college again, pay fees and support myself at the same time without having to work.

Would any barristers out there recommend doing this at 30???

I should point out that I've been working for about 10 years, have no high flying business contacts or anything like that. If I do this, am I joining some sort of elitest Etonian club where I'll end up with a bit of paper and nothing else after qualifying 'cos I didn't come from the right family or because Daddy didn't play at the right golf course??? Have been down in the Law Library in the Four Courts and this is the impression I get to be honest, but I know I'd love the job and could stick out the course...

I'm afraid you are exactly right. I have degrees, the most useless of which is a B.L. I am a practising barrister, if I could go back in time and talk some sense into my younger self about this route now I would be a much happier person. It is a lot like a club for landed gentry from another era, i.e. a nice occupation for people who don't need money. It is no fun at all without connections or money. Don't get trapped, once your in, leaving is tantamount to admitting that you are a failure. The reasons for this may be beyond your control but then again so is the heartbreak.

johnnyskeleton

a-ha wrote: »

I'm afraid you are exactly right. I have degrees, the most useless of which is a B.L. I am a practising barrister, if I could go back in time and talk some sense into my younger self about this route now I would be a much happier person. It is a lot like a club for landed gentry from another era, i.e. a nice occupation for people who don't need money. It is no fun at all without connections or money. Don't get trapped, once your in, leaving is tantamount to admitting that you are a failure. The reasons for this may be beyond your control but then again so is the heartbreak.

Are you saying that there is no one at all who has made it as a barrister without connections & money? I don't think you can honestly verify that.

a-ha

Sure some people have made it without connections, but you find many took a full 5-6 years to do it, after 6 years+ of study. They are the ones who write the books, articles, conference papers, manuals, who lecture, get into debt and suffer daily heartbreak until they have made it. It is an Olympic task. Think carefully about whether u want to spend your twenties alternating between penury, burn out and despair.

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote: »

Am thinking along the same lines myself. Am 30, very unhappy in my career and luckily am now in a financial position to be able to put myself through college again, pay fees and support myself at the same time without having to work.

Would any barristers out there recommend doing this at 30???

I should point out that I've been working for about 10 years, have no high flying business contacts or anything like that. If I do this, am I joining some sort of elitest Etonian club where I'll end up with a bit of paper and nothing else after qualifying 'cos I didn't come from the right family or because Daddy didn't play at the right golf course??? Have been down in the Law Library in the Four Courts and this is the impression I get to be honest, but I know I'd love the job and could stick out the course...

Would you not think of becoming a motor assessor instead (maybe do law by night?)

johnnyskeleton

a-ha wrote: »

Sure some people have made it without connections, but you find many took a full 5-6 years to do it, after 6 years+ of study. They are the ones who write the books, articles, conference papers, manuals, who lecture, get into debt and suffer daily heartbreak until they have made it. It is an Olympic task. Think carefully about whether u want to spend your twenties alternating between penury, burn out and despair.

So the point stands that you don't need to have connections to make it as a barrister, but it helps. Hard work will get you there too, in fact hard work will more likely stand to you if you want to make a long term career out of it, while people with contacts run the risk of failing to develop a practice outside of their contacts. And should those contacts dry up, it's game over for them whereas the person who works hard survives.

As for the debt, hartbreak etc, not all hardworking people have 5-6 years of it, surely many of them enjoy it and make enough money to scrape by? In any event, all this is explained to young barristers before they join the law library. It is explained to them by the bar council and kings inns themsevles. What you are saying is nothing new or relevatory. The amount of time it takes to establish yourself has always been long. It seems to me that perhaps, and this is just a suggestion, you ignored or underestimated the cautions and thought that you would fare better than most. However, if you have not, I guess it's something to chalk up to experience.

a-ha

Sure there will be the odd unusual individual who will survive without connections. The question should not be is it possible because there will always be rare individuals who can overcome unbearable odds but rather is it likely? If it is next to impossible (highly unlikely) that a person without connections in the legal profession will survive their first five years of practice, then there is something wrong with the bar and the sole trader model to which no alternative has been allowed. What about freedom of contract? The rules say masters shall not exploit devils but also that they may not pay them. The bar council rules also forbid the formation of partnerships and chambers which work well in the uk (a near identical legal system from which our own evolved). In chambers devils are paid, the clerk chases up unpaid fees (late or non payment is a big problem for all barristers). Administrative tasks are not left to individual barristers(in Ireland junior sole traders do all their own secretarial work also. Why can't we have the freedom to choose our own business model, sole trader or otherwise?

johnnyskeleton

a-ha wrote: »

Sure there will be the odd unusual individual who will survive without connections. The question should not be is it possible because there will always be rare individuals who can overcome unbearable odds but rather is it likely? If it is next to impossible (highly unlikely) that a person without connections in the legal profession will survive their first five years of practice, then there is something wrong with the bar and the sole trader model to which no alternative has been allowed.

You have not demonstrated that it is either next to impossible or highly unlikely that a person without connections in the legal profession will survive. Perhaps I should clarify - when you say connections I take that to mean relatives in the legal profession who will help you out. But there are other kinds of contacts - the contacts that you build up for yourself. Obviously a barrister will not survive if no solicitors brief him or her, so in that sense contacts are necessary. But you do not need to come to the bar with contacts, they are something you acquire when there. You acquire them by impressing solicitors & other barristers.

a-ha wrote: »

What about freedom of contract? The rules say masters shall not exploit devils but also that they may not pay them.

Some masters give money to their devils or pay for their fees etc. Others will let their devils send out fee notes for work that they did. Finally, some masters will hand work over to their devil(s) after the deviling period. So in some cases some level of remuneration passes between the two.

a-ha wrote: »

The bar council rules also forbid the formation of partnerships and chambers which work well in the uk (a near identical legal system from which our own evolved). In chambers devils are paid, the clerk chases up unpaid fees (late or non payment is a big problem for all barristers). Administrative tasks are not left to individual barristers(in Ireland junior sole traders do all their own secretarial work also. Why can't we have the freedom to choose our own business model, sole trader or otherwise?

That's a matter for a different thread - there was a thread about whether barristers should have chambers in Ireland and if you want to discuss it you should resurrect that thread. Suffice it to say for the purposes of this thread, the introduction of chambers or partnerships would not automatically mean that devils would get paid, nor is it true to say that chambers/partnership is the only way in which devils could get paid.