I was sold a car with a Missing Gear ?!? - UPDATE

Undercoverguy

As some of you might know i recently bought a used Punto Sporting from a very well known north Dublin garage....

Today i just realised 6th gear is missing!?! It come standard in ALL Sportings but its not in this. Even the gear know has 6th gear on it but its been scratched out or markered out.

Anyone ideas? What would have needed to be replaced for this to happen? The gearbox? Engine?

And what can i do with the garage?

Anan1

Undercoverguy wrote:

As some of you might know i recently bought a used Punto Sporting from a very well known north Dublin garage....

Today i just realised 6th gear is missing!?! It come standard in ALL Sportings but its not in this. Even the gear know has 6th gear on it but its been scratched out or markered out.

Anyone ideas? What would have needed to be replaced for this to happen? The gearbox? Engine?

And what can i do with the garage?

Sounds like the original 6-speed gearbox has been replaced with a 5-speed at some stage. I'd call the garage - they'll have to replace the gearbox with the correct 6-speed unit.

Rudolph Claus

lol,,, maybe its lying on the road somewhere.
Why do people buy fiats. There a false economy. THe money you save buyin the car is used up rapidly fixing it every 2nd week.

Seriously,, a 1991 corolla with 140000miles is a better buy than a 03 etc punto with 30000. I could never understand why people keep buying these balls of sh--it-e. My mate has a sporting,,, and hes had so much trouble with it its unreal. Stupid things go wrong with it. Theres so much needs doing on it at the min, hes not even gonna bother fixing it, or nct-ing it. Reckons it`ll die soon. And its a 01. Its a joke like, a 01 and its wrecked. There made of rubber.

Sorry, i didnt mean to distrupt your thread, but perhaps you can enlighten me as to why folk buy these yokes.

Anan1

Nuttzy wrote:

lol,,, maybe its lying on the road somewhere.
Why do people buy fiats. There a false economy. THe money you save buyin the car is used up rapidly fixing it every 2nd week.

Seriously,, a 1991 corolla with 140000miles is a better buy than a 03 etc punto with 30000. I could never understand why people keep buying these balls of sh--it-e. My mate has a sporting,,, and hes had so much trouble with it its unreal. Stupid things go wrong with it. Theres so much needs doing on it at the min, hes not even gonna bother fixing it, or nct-ing it. Reckons it`ll die soon. And its a 01. Its a joke like, a 01 and its wrecked. There made of rubber.

Sorry, i didnt mean to distrupt your thread, but perhaps you can enlighten me as to why folk buy these yokes.

That's very helpful, I'm sure. If you take the time to read the OP's post, you'll see that his car hasn't broken down, it has been fitted with an incorrect gearbox. If you don't like Puntos then don't buy one.

weemcd

Anan1 wrote:

you'll see that his car hasn't broken down, it has been fitted with an incorrect gearbox.

The garage didnt fit the car with a new (incorrect) gear box for no reason now did they?:rolleyes:

Owen

Okay, before we panic and start thinking there's a new gearbox in there, it could just be a case of the linkage inside has slipped, and to cover it up, the garage has scratched off the 6th to save having to work on Gearboxes (Working on Gearboxes is a pig). I'd get an independent assemement, and then politely confront the garage. Agression will get you no where in a situation like this. Perhaps a visit to a main FIAT Dealer might help?

To the guy who said FIATs were unreliable? I'm in the Motor Trade, and FIATs have become a lot more reliable in the last 5 years. They're even offering 4 year's warranty now!

Undercoverguy

Anan1 wrote:

That's very helpful, I'm sure. If you take the time to read the OP's post, you'll see that his car hasn't broken down, it has been fitted with an incorrect gearbox. If you don't like Puntos then don't buy one.

Well said.

If ya want a car a 15 year old ugly car that you can eventually watch the clock turn back to "0000000" then appart from being cheap cu*t you should buy really old built like a WV.

BUT!.... If ya want a car that YOU PERSONALLY like the Style, Look, Colour, Body, Features and Engine (ex. Get Box lol) then you should but that... In my case its a Punto. Build a bridge and get a new pet hate.

Now back to the thread.... Will the garage change the box? Big job? Also bearing in mind altho i only have the car a week i've caused some nasty cosmetic damage to the passenger side... could this void the warrenty or something?!?!

TempestSabre

Nuttzy wrote:

...Why do people buy fiats. .

Flair design... Schumacher has one?

Nuttzy wrote:

...My mate has a sporting, ...Theres so much needs doing on it at the min...

What do you expect if he doesn't maintain it? :rolleyes: Bad workman...

Undercoverguy - need to know more about how you bought it, how long ago. This is something you really should have spotted when you bought the car. But perhaps it was bought "as is". Maybe they pulled a fast one, hard to tell from the info thus far. Its a strange one alright. You might need to get some one to a report on what actually is on the car. Different gearbox, engine who knows?

Owen

Tough question. The warranty shouldn't be affected by cosmetic damage, but it does lessen your rights to return the car and get your money back if it comes to that situation.

Get yourself to a FIAT Dealer mate, it'll answer all your questions.

Anan1

Undercoverguy wrote:

Now back to the thread.... Will the garage change the box? Big job? Also bearing in mind altho i only have the car a week i've caused some nasty cosmetic damage to the passenger side... could this void the warrenty or something?!?!

I don't think it's anything to do with the warranty. The garage sold you a 6-speed Punto with only 5 forward gears. This is how they gave you the car, it didn't develop this problem during your ownership. They'll have to do whatever it takes to make the car as described, ie with 6 foward gears. That said, ned's post makes sense. Remember also that the garage that sold you the car may be completely unaware of this - it may have been done by a previous owner before they ever saw the car. Of course it's still their problem, but it may be a genuine oversight.

TempestSabre

Undercoverguy wrote:

....Will the garage change the box? Big job? Also bearing in mind altho i only have the car a week i've caused some nasty cosmetic damage to the passenger side... could this void the warrenty or something?!?!

Depends why its fitted. The other damage has nothing to do with the gearbox, though you've probably made it very hard to return the car if that was an option to explore. Problem with the wrong box apart from the gearing effecting the performance, is that it will effect the resale of the car aswell.

TempestSabre

What kinda place did you get it from? Dealer, Private?

Undercoverguy

Okay i got the car for the FIAT Dealer in Swords, I never seen an spec sheets as it was a "Standard FIAT Punto Sporting". I got the car late friday night and cause the body damage... late friday night. I Know, MADNESS but i have a TINY Gate lol

If this garage are not aware of this and i bring it to them tomorrow, what happens from there on in? Replace the box? Could the 6th gear still be in the just closed off due to damage?

Why would the box be changed down a gear? Surely its a major job and there wold have to be good reason.

Owen

It just sounds like a linkage has popped off. I had it on a car years ago, I had 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th. The third linkage was loose in the box, my mate reattached it, and hey presto, 3rd gear again. They probably didn't notice it, how often would they get to use 6th on their service test drives around Swords?

BArra

they might have had to replace the clutch and just put in a 5 gear, a black marker over the 6th gear thing on the knob sounds very dodgey.

Undercoverguy

BArra wrote:

a black marker over the 6th gear thing on the knob sounds very dodgey.

Couldnt agree more. But tomorrow should i get the garage i purchased it from to take a look or a "down the lane" machanic i know?

Who knew getting a car could be so much fun. I have it 3 days and i've gotten 1000euro worth of body damage and a missing gear.... Think a break light is gone to..... JOY! lol

Owen

BArra wrote:

they might have had to replace the clutch and just put in a 5 gear, a black marker over the 6th gear thing on the knob sounds very dodgey.

Huh ?

Replacing a clutch would have nothing to do with the gearbox. The clutch is just a friction linkage between the engine and the gears, it doesn't matter if there's 1 gear or 47.

Lets just wait for diagnosis from the Dealership before speculating. We could all be wrong

TempestSabre

Bring it back to the dealer you bought it from. I reckon they'll sort it out for you.

No point worrying about it till then.

maidhc

Undercoverguy wrote:

Today i just realised 6th gear is missing!?! It come standard in ALL Sportings but its not in this. Even the gear know has 6th gear on it but its been scratched out or markered out.

My money is definately on the original 6 speed being replaced by a 5 speed. The 5 speed would have been much cheaper to fit into the car than sourcing an 6 speed.

You have a pretty good claim against the garage for it.

esskay

Nuttzy wrote:

lol,,, maybe its lying on the road somewhere.
Why do people buy fiats. There a false economy. THe money you save buyin the car is used up rapidly fixing it every 2nd week.

Seriously,, a 1991 corolla with 140000miles is a better buy than a 03 etc punto with 30000. I could never understand why people keep buying these balls of sh--it-e. My mate has a sporting,,, and hes had so much trouble with it its unreal. Stupid things go wrong with it. Theres so much needs doing on it at the min, hes not even gonna bother fixing it, or nct-ing it. Reckons it`ll die soon. And its a 01. Its a joke like, a 01 and its wrecked. There made of rubber.

Sorry, i didnt mean to distrupt your thread, but perhaps you can enlighten me as to why folk buy these yokes.

Sorry folks, Gotta agree with Nuttzy. I have a 00 Punto ELX and it's muck. Has more new parts than Pamela Anderson. Funnily enough I did buy a 14 yr old VW Corrado and love it :-P

TempestSabre

esskay wrote:

Sorry folks, Gotta agree with Nuttzy. I have a 00 Punto ELX and it's muck. Has more new parts than Pamela Anderson. Funnily enough I did buy a 14 yr old VW Corrado and love it :-P

Yes and they are completely different type of cars. You might aswell compare a Ford Mondeo 1.6 and a Audi S8. I know people with Fiats who look after them and have no more problems than people with VW's. Problem is most people who buy them don't maintain them properly, and they do not stand up to neglect or abuse, why? Because they are cheaper car. Get over it and quit the thread spoiling. Its not cool.

prospect

Nuttzy wrote:

lol,,, maybe its lying on the road somewhere.
Why do people buy fiats. There a false economy. THe money you save buyin the car is used up rapidly fixing it every 2nd week.

Seriously,, a 1991 corolla with 140000miles is a better buy than a 03 etc punto with 30000. I could never understand why people keep buying these balls of sh--it-e. My mate has a sporting,,, and hes had so much trouble with it its unreal. Stupid things go wrong with it. Theres so much needs doing on it at the min, hes not even gonna bother fixing it, or nct-ing it. Reckons it`ll die soon. And its a 01. Its a joke like, a 01 and its wrecked. There made of rubber.

Sorry, i didnt mean to distrupt your thread, but perhaps you can enlighten me as to why folk buy these yokes.

I am also curious,

Why do people who clearly know SFA about cars post onto a Motoring Forum?

Get off that bandwagon, it doesn't suit you.

Owen

maidhc wrote:

My money is definately on the original 6 speed being replaced by a 5 speed. The 5 speed would have been much cheaper to fit into the car than sourcing an 6 speed.

I doubt it. A Gearbox is going to be expensive whether it's 5 speed, or 6 speed, and will take the same amount of time to fit.

TempestSabre

ned78 wrote:

I doubt it. A Gearbox is going to be expensive whether it's 5 speed, or 6 speed, and will take the same amount of time to fit.

Thats what I was thinking. Maybe they are hard to source, some fiat parts are like that, so they fitted what they could get. Unlikely though. Perhaps theres a linkage/selector broken. Could be any reason though. No point guessing till you get the original garage to look at it.

cargrouch

I hate to even acknowledge the two blatant whinging thread spoilers that wandered in here, but there are three types of problems with FIATs

1)70% - poor maintenance, and young drivers driving the ring out of them. Let's be honest about this - they are cheap cars and the majority are in the hands of people who know nothing about cars.

2)20% - sensors/electronics type problems that pretty much all european car manufacturers seem to have.

3)10% - genuine FIAT foul ups.

I'm constantly amazed by the amount of people with a wheezing, creaking, patched up corolla (for example) that would tell you a FIAT was complete crap if it had half of the same things wrong with it. Granted, the corolla is a fine car and a well maintained one will go "forever".
But it always seems to me that the people that bought a Toyota for FIAT money (ie a knackered corolla) that are most vocal about how FIAT have always been and always will be crap.
Now, before I drag a load of people into an off-topic argument, I'm not say they're fantastic or anything, just that if you know your stuff and treat 'em right a fiat can work out to be a cheap way to get around.

Back to the OP, did a bit of googling, and not ALL Sportings had 6speed, but maybe you meant all of your particular model.

punto website wrote:

Several Punto Sporting have been produced by Fiat:

Punto Sporting Mk0 (1994-1995, 88 HPs, 1587 cc)
Punto Sporting Mk1 (1996-1999, 86 HPs, 1242 cc, 16 valves)
Punto Sporting Mk2 (1999-2001, 80 HPs, 1242 cc, 16 valves, 6 gear speeds)
Punto Sporting Mk2 Speedgear (1999-2002, 80 HPs, 1242 cc, 16 valves, Speedgear gearbox)
Punto Sporting Mk2 (2001-2002, 80 HPs, 1242 cc, 16 valves, 5 gear speeds)
Punto Sporting Mk2 JTD (2001-2002, 86 HPs, 1910 cc)

So it's possible you have a gearbox from a different Punto Sporting? As TempestSabre said, maybe that's all that was available when the job was originally done. That said, I def think you should get the correct one!

Slinky>

Its a bit convenient that Fiat owners are 'special' in that they drive their cars to destruction and dont bother getting them serviced dont you think ?

If you look at the JD Power survey's and www.honestjohn.co.uk Fiat is always worse off than Toyota, Nissan VW ect. .

Ive a 13 year old supra I "drive the ring out of it" all I want no doubt every one else who had it before me did the eand it runs a lot better than a 2 year old Fiat I had before, No main dealer rip off I can change the oil myself,

Fiats can be great value cars but you either want to be paying very little for it or else getting a one owner main dealer serviced car.

Good Luck to guy with the 6 Speed Sporting im sure the main dealer will sort it out, Often their inspections of trade in's are quite basic and they may have overlooked it

cargrouch wrote:

I hate to even acknowledge the two blatant whinging thread spoilers that wandered in here, but there are three types of problems with FIATs

1)70% - poor maintenance, and young drivers driving the ring out of them. Let's be honest about this - they are cheap cars and the majority are in the hands of people who know nothing about cars.

Kimbot

I would imagine the gearbox went in the 6 speed and to source a second hand 6 speed box is a nightmare so they opted for a 5 speed!! Either that or when they sourced a 6 speed box it was really a 5 speed!!

maidhc

cargrouch wrote:

I'm constantly amazed by the amount of people with a wheezing, creaking, patched up corolla (for example) that would tell you a FIAT was complete crap if it had half of the same things wrong with it. Granted, the corolla is a fine car and a well maintained one will go "forever".

There is no amount of maintenance will do anything for a gearbox (or a headgasket). Aside from not dog it, there is little you can do but hope for the best. Most cars don't even have a filler to allow you change the oil in the box, and even if they do there is little benefit in doing it more than every 100k (I changed the oil in a tractor gearbox yesterday for the first time since in almost 40 years, and it is still perfect!).

The only routine maintenance a car should need is an oil change, new filters when recommended, and replacment wearing parts (brake pads, trackends etc).

cargrouch

Slinky> wrote:

A supra is better than a punto

Slow slap for Slinky! How long did it take you to work that out!

cargrouch wrote:

Toyota for FIAT money

I think you may have picked up the wrong end of a stick from a different tree on a diffent continent. We sure as hell aren't talking about the same thing here.

PauloMN

Are you sure your model is supposed to be a 6 speed? This may sound daft, but maybe the previous owner simply liked the gear stick knob of the 6 speed, screwed off the old one and popped the new one on. Is it a steel knob or anything that might have been nicer than the standard one?

Wibbs

That sounds well dodgy. Now as has been pointed out it's possible that your car didn't have the 6 speed box in the first place, though that begs the question why it had the 6 speed gearknob. It'll be interesting to see what the dealer says about this.

As for Fiats and reliability; They can be less reliable than many other manufacturers on average(do not get me started on the mechanics friend Alfas ). If you're lucky you can get a good one though. I know two people who got the same model new Punto within 3 weeks of each other, one swears by the car, one swears at it. The litany of faults the unlucky one suffered you would scarcely believe.

This can happen with any car maker in fairness, but the italian stuff seems to have the worst record by far. FIAT/Alfa joint worst for breakdowns attended by German ADAC during 2001, 10th from Bottom of 100 models for reliability in Auto Express 2004 survey, 10th least reliable car in 2005 Warranty Direct Reliability Survey with 48 repair claims per 100. 48 per 100 FFS!!. They're mostly newer cars too. Scale that up for cars with bigger mileage. No amount of care and attention will help with those kind of stats.

As maidhc points out, maintenance will only take you so far. Drive a civic or polo and a punto the same distance, with the same maintenance schedule and see how far the Italian car goes.

That said if you do get a good one, they're a stylish little car that can be nice to drive and pretty cheap to run. If I asked the friend who got the aforementioned good one about them, he'd likely beat me up for even suggesting they're not a good car .

Slinky>

cargrouch wrote:

Originally Posted by Slinky>
A supra is better than a punto
Slow slap for Slinky!

How long did it take you to work that out!

Please dont misquote me its deceitful.

The point I was 'trying' to make was that I would expect a few year old supermini to be more reliable than a 13 year old sports car which hasnt seen a main dealer in 8 years and for the last 5 years has had 'DIY' servicing.

TempestSabre

Reliability has nothing to do with this thread. Stop hijacking it.

If you want to start a thread on cheap cars vs expensive ones or big capacity GT cars vs budget small capacity hackbacks do. Perferably in the inane analogy forum.

cargrouch

Slinky> wrote:

Please dont misquote me its deceitful.

The point I was 'trying' to make was that I would expect a few year old supermini to be more reliable than a 13 year old sports car which hasnt seen a main dealer in 8 years and for the last 5 years has had 'DIY' servicing.

Might be, mightn't be. Too many factors apart from age.

Sorry bout the paraphrasing. Genuinely! I do just have a thing against people who say "ALL toyotas are great, ALL Fiats are crap", thought you may have been one of these, sorry.

Slinky>

cargrouch wrote:

Might be, mightn't be. Too many factors apart from age.

Sorry bout the paraphrasing. Genuinely! I do just have a thing against people who say "ALL toyotas are great, ALL Fiats are crap", thought you may have been one of these, sorry.

Not at all, I would buy a Fiat coupe in the morning.

I seen 99 Punto's going for €1500, Thats excellent value if you get a good one,

Undercoverguy

Was just on to the sales guy who sold it too me. He's a friend of a friend so first we joked about how this car seems to have bad karma or something with things going wrong.

He said it could just be a linkage thats gone but they'll need to see it. But no matter what they'll fix it. So before they have a look at it i'm taking it to a machanic i know down the road so he can tell me excatly whats happening under there.

Slinky>

Undercoverguy wrote:

On to the sale guy who sold it too me. He a friend of a friend so first we joked about how this car seems to have bad karma or something.

He waid it would just be a linkage gone but theey'll need to see it. But no matter what they'll fix it. So before they have a look at it i'm taking it to a machanic i know doen the road to tell me excatly whats happening under there.

Thats a good idea, I suggest not mentioning it to Fiat that youve had the car checked out and see what they come up with, It will give you a good idea of the dealers integrity/quality.

Best of Luck with it,

TempestSabre

Slinky> wrote:

....you either want to be paying very little for it or else getting a one owner main dealer serviced car....

Slinky> wrote:

...The point I was 'trying' to make was that I would expect a few year old supermini to be more reliable than a 13 year old sports car which hasnt seen a main dealer in 8 years and for the last 5 years has had 'DIY' servicing.

Personally I have no faith in main dealer servicing.

Wibbs

Slinky> wrote:

Thats a good idea, I suggest not mentioning it to Fiat that youve had the car checked out and see what they come up with, It will give you a good idea of the dealers integrity/quality.

Good plan.

Best of Luck with it,

I second that.

bazz26

ned78 wrote:

I doubt it. A Gearbox is going to be expensive whether it's 5 speed, or 6 speed, and will take the same amount of time to fit.

True but if the car was fitted with a reconditioned gear box then a 6 speed might have been harder to get hold of at the time, so the more common 5 speed was used. Strange though that they didn't just replace the gear knob too from a scrapped Punto.

Chances are all this was done by the previous owner of the car rather than the garage. The garage if not a main Fiat dealer may not have even known that that this Punto model had a 6 speed gear box or didn't bother to check if it did when taking it in as a trade-in. The salesman could have given it a quick spin around the block just to make sure it was driving ok and checked the body work.

ZENER

Just a thought, does the car feel like it needs a 6th ? I mean when you get to 5th does the rev counter reach max before the car has reached its max speed ? I'm sure there are people here who know what I mean. If your 5 speed car lost 5th gear you'd be aware of it wouldn't you, you wouldnt reach top speed.

Can someone who knows what I mean explain this better?

ZEN

Anan1

ZENER wrote:

Just a thought, does the car feel like it needs a 6th ? I mean when you get to 5th does the rev counter reach max before the car has reached its max speed ? I'm sure there are people here who know what I mean. If your 5 speed car lost 5th gear you'd be aware of it wouldn't you, you wouldnt reach top speed.

Can someone who knows what I mean explain this better?

ZEN

To further complicate matters, 6th could be an overdrive - there are 6 speed cars that can only reach top speed in 5th.

yellow012

Well the MK 1 Sporting had 5 gears and 86bhp, six more than the MK2 and it didn't need a sixth gear.
I've heard a few reports that the 6 speed gearboxes in the MK2 Sporting could be quite fragile so you are probably better off with what you have. If it is the case that the gearbox has been replaced, ask the garage for an extended warranty on the gearbox and then get a gear knob off a 5 speed Punto, stick it on and forget about it.
For what it's worth, I owned a Punto Sporting for 6 years and 70000 miles without an ounce of trouble. My sister is currently driving it and there is now over 85k on it and it still feels as new. They are a great little car.
Alternatively I could have spent 6 years driving around in a clapped out Jap box wishing to god the thing would break so I could end the misery not have to drive it any more:)

Paul (MN)

I had problem with a swords FIAT dealer before. I would be careful and not take any bull. I would start recording all interactions, and put any complaints, demands in writing, just in case.

Kersh

If the box has been changed , ask why? The cars not that old. My youngest car is 15 (108k), the oldest 27 (170k), and neither has ever had a box change.
Regardless of the answer you get, keep asking questions.

mike65

Right no more off-topic posts about why FIATS are crap or why they are not crap.

Anyone who violates this will be banned for a week.

Mike.

Dilbert75

OP are you sure it was registered as a Sporting? Is it possible it was fitted with a Sporting bodykit and its plonker owner tried to scratch the 6th gear where there never was one?

ianobrien

Have you examined identical models from the same year to see if they have a 5 or 6 speed 'box?

Another option is to start off playing dumb with the dealer "What happened to the gear lever?" and then hit him with that another identical model has X gears, is there a hidden history with the car and so on.. Ideally find an identical model on the own dealers forecourt.

I'd take somebody with you, somebody who you trust and who is calm to keep you on the straight and narrow if youo fly off the handle with the dealer.

ZENER

ianobrien wrote:

Another option is to start off playing dumb with the dealer "What happened to the gear lever?" and then hit him with that another identical model has X gears, is there a hidden history with the car and so on.. Ideally find an identical model on the own dealers forecourt.

I wouldn't bother with this approach, they read this forum and probably already know you're on your way.

ZEN

chicken_food

My advice would be talk to them nicely. They probably didnt even know it was like that or were oblivious to it. Either way if ur nice to them they will be nicer to you. Theyv taken your money but still want repeat custom. Going in and shouting the odds will just cause a stalemate. Now if they start fobbing you off with exscuses then start demanding answers and report them. But dont threaten, these guys get threatened every day by customers who hear what they are entitled to,not what they ARE entitled to.
My 2c anyway!

Interceptor

If the gearbox was replaced, the ratio for 5th is THE SAME as the ratio for 6th so there will be no difference in performance, just less gear changing. A second hand 6sp box costs >€600 and a 5sp<€150 with the 6sp being as rare as rocking horse poop.

The gears are cable-shifted so unless a selector fork is bent then I doubt its a 'box problem - no linkages to bend/fall off.

My bet is its a 5sp sporting with the wrong gearknob - its a nice colour too - pity about your gate/door interface OP.

'cptr