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Derren Brown Double Bluff?

  • 15-05-2006 03:56PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37


    Does anybody else think Derren Brown is manipulating people's minds under the guise of a TV magician who pretends to manipulate people's minds?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    lol i had that discussion only the other day! if you think about it, he can make more money doing what he is doing now. People arent affriad to buy into it coz its explainable.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I can't say I'm entirely sure what you mean. If you meant that by claiming to be able to manipulate peoples minds so well, he is in fact manipulating their minds so that they automatically accept some of the things he does as wonderous, when in fact they're often simple tricks, then yes. On the other hand, that is exactly what he claims to be doing, he delivers exactly what he promises and for some reason people expect there to be 'more' to it.

    I personally think hypnosis works largely in the same way. Hypnotists tell you that they are going to put you in a mental state where you are extremely open to suggestion. Many people believe there is some kind of 'magic' to this, but the fact is that if you accept this premise then you are already in a mental state open to suggestion. So all the hypnotist then has to do is further convince you of this and you are 'hypnotised'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37 IPI


    Plus, he can make us believe we've been watching an hour's worth of entertaining television whereas all we've been watching is Derren Brown saying "You are watching an hour's worth of entertaining television" over and over for an hour.

    But how do you explain the people who don't like him or his shows?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    IPI wrote:
    Plus, he can make us believe we've been watching an hour's worth of entertaining television whereas all we've been watching is Derren Brown saying "You are watching an hour's worth of entertaining television" over and over for an hour.

    But how do you explain the people who don't like him or his shows?
    I can't really, I find him very entertaining. Some of the things he does completely boggle the mind, and with the ones I do understand, I can still appreciate his craftsmanship. He is very, very good at what he does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37 IPI


    Clearly, Mr Stevenmu, you believe Mr Brown is merely a stage magician, a man with an act, a performer. Ah, how foolish you will feel when the day does come that he melts all our minds into malleable mush and thus gains mastery over the entire planet and its human inhabitants (cats, as the most intelligent creatures on the planet, will, I believe, be immune).

    Or, you're right. It's just tricks.

    Or is it . . . ?

    For anyone else who didn't quite get my drift, what I meant to ask, though arguably less boringly, was this: is it possible that someone who truly has the capacity to manipulate people's minds would find it easier to hide his skills by pretending to be a theatrical mind-manipulator? The Anti-Uri, perhaps (the stage magician who tried to pass himself off as a true psychic by warping cutlery)?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    the guy challenges peoples perceptions, are you suggesting there is a supernatural element to his methods and that he is a) unaware of such an influence :) or b) aware but is in denial or c) is consciously aware but hides the truth.

    eh..

    pick a card..any card.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37 IPI


    "...are you suggesting there is a supernatural element to his methods..."
    What, you mean am I making myself a target for ridicule and derision? Have we yet established on this board whether "supernatural" is a term we use to describe flights of fantastic fancy or a term relating to aspects of nature beyond our current benchmarks of comprehension?

    I have read threads here which show that there are those among the membership who believe unarguably in spiritualism, in ghosts (not sure about the ghost car, it may have been a gag), in "the existence of extraterrestrial biological entities", in pshycho-kenesis, telepathy, Out of Body Experiences, telekenesis and the list goes on. In my own studies, I have discovered evidence, both anecdotal and through investigation, for which there is a high "non-disprovable" quotient (not to say that the interpretation is always bang-on, but that the experience or event often lacks even the most rudimentary of familiar reference points).

    We, by being here, have to some extent nailed our colours to the mast. It may be unlikely, it may be fanciful to suggest it seriously in mixed company, but there are unusual people in this cock-eyed world who can do things the rest of us can't. There are telepaths and remote viewers, there may be mindreaders and writers, there ought to be telekeneticists and EBEs, but we can't prove it or deny it.

    So, if I were one of these unusual folk, I might take my talent on the road and call it magic trickery, with a little bit of human psychology thrown in. And I might live comfortably on the proceeds for as long as I could manipulate my audience into believeing they're enjoying the show.

    So, am I saying this is what Derren Brown is up to? Of course not. But if I believe in the unbounded power of the human mind, can I rule it out as at least a possibility that someone, sometime, somewhere, will do just that and we won't notice?

    Seven of hearts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Hi IPI,

    nice to see a new serious poster joining the ranks. As you say there are quite a few here how believe with out much doubt that they have experiences many paranormal phenonemon, myself included.

    I'm here not to prove the existance of spirits etc but to discuss them.

    Withre gards to Mr. Brown I have concidered that maybe there is more than trickery to what he does, he is very clever but maybe there is more. Its possible he hides his true talents behind the mass acceptable face of illussion and psychology.

    I lokk forward to you becominga long term poster!

    6th


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    IPI wrote:
    Ah, how foolish you will feel when the day does come that he melts all our minds into malleable mush ...
    You're assuming that our minds aren't already malleable mush ;)
    IPI wrote:
    For anyone else who didn't quite get my drift, what I meant to ask, though arguably less boringly, was this: is it possible that someone who truly has the capacity to manipulate people's minds would find it easier to hide his skills by pretending to be a theatrical mind-manipulator? The Anti-Uri, perhaps (the stage magician who tried to pass himself off as a true psychic by warping cutlery)?
    While he certainly is very talented, I don't think he is, conciously at least, using any paranormal or supernatural abilities. Watching the way he works it seems to me that he is incredibly intelligent with an unbelievable attention to detail and he has used this to form an intricate understanding of the human mind. If you watch his shows carefully you can see that sometimes he makes small mistakes which show that the effects he achieves rely not on a reading (either psychic or otherwise) of the individual(s) involved, but rather on certain general behaviour patterns which apply to the majority of people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    I think Derren brown is a superb entertainer. One of my friends can do many of his tricks. It's an art and an excellent understanding of the human psyche with a little sprinkle of magic thrown in on top.

    There's absolutely nothing paranormal or supernatural about it. Period.
    IPI wrote:
    There are telepaths and remote viewers, there may be mindreaders and writers, there ought to be telekeneticists and EBEs, but we can't prove it or deny it.

    Come back to Earth. Telepathists and remote viewers are as real as Santa Claus and the Yeti.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    ian if you want to dismiss peoples beliefs take it elsewhere. I can take a chainsaw to a piece of wood and make it into something amazing - the mechanics of it are simply that, a series of physical actions but why is it that i can do it and some people cant?

    Surely that suggests we are more than just our bodies?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    And for the record who says there is no yeti? You sound like a very closed minded person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    6th wrote:
    ian if you want to dismiss peoples beliefs take it elsewhere. I can take a chainsaw to a piece of wood and make it into something amazing - the mechanics of it are simply that, a series of physical actions but why is it that i can do it and some people cant?

    Surely that suggests we are more than just our bodies?

    Man taking a chainsaw to a piece of wood and creating something from it is a skill. It is a skill that must be learned. Many people possessing that particular skill can teach it to others.

    Mind reading and remote viewing are not skills (IMHO of course as I don't believe they exist in the real world). They are in no way comparable to an ancient human craft such as carpentry (to be honest, this comparison debases your entire point)

    It's nothing to do with open-mindedness. I'm willing to listen to anyones point of view on any subject and will never keep my personal viewpoints set in stone.

    Stating that urban myths such as the Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster don't exist doesn't infer that I'm closed minded, more that I'm a realist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Its a skill alright and i'm sure if i spend enough time i could paint the mna lisa but they fact is there are people who have a gift. I've thought art and can assure you, though it is a series of simple step, some people possess a unimaginable talent which cant be taught.

    As for discribing the like of Yeti and Lochness Monster as Urban Myths maybe you should consider what an urban myth is. Its usually a story or variation of a story spread by word of mouth. Where documentation has been put forward it cant be discribed as an urban myth, though obvious documentation doesnt make it real.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,399 ✭✭✭✭Thanx 4 The Fish


    But surely ruling them out, out of hand without any kind of reasoning or some kind of proof shows you up as a closed minded person as if you were not then you would at least accept the possibility that they may exist until proven otherwise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 522 ✭✭✭comer_97


    a lot of people claim they are open minded yet rubbish the believes of others.

    Why is the idea of a Yeti so unbelievable? There are many animals yet to be discovered and there is a lot left to our understanding of our own consciousness yet to be discovered....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Well said comer. New animals are popping up all the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37 IPI


    ianmc38 wrote:
    Telepathists and remote viewers are as real as Santa Claus and the Yeti.

    And you are here because ... ? I'm sorry, I thought ridiculing the beliefs of others was the fascist approach to freedom of speech. I maintain, things exist in this world that are beyond our meagre understanding. Disprove it before you deny it. Or ignore the suggestion and carry on with your life in contented ignorance. But please don't insult me by half-reading what I've written and assume that this has given you enough data by which to characterise me.

    Stevenmu, I completely concur that there is no evidence on which to base a suspicion that Derren Brown is anything more than an extremely competent, talented and charismatic artist. And, ianmc38, I can also do *some* of his tricks, and have worked out to my own satisfaction at least how he does some of the others, but a lot of the rest, even when I think I know how they're done, I find myself wondering if it really could be done that way - even when I suspect him of having a radio receiver in his wristwatch (or similar) or, as you yourself suggest he might be doing it, "with a little sprinkle of magic thrown in on top" (didn't think you'd believe in 'magic'. Takes all sorts, doesn't it?)

    What places DB in a separate class, for me, is that with other magicians, I can usually be content with the conclusion that anyone could do it with the right equipment. There is no doubt he is special, whatever the origin of that speciality might be. And be fair, even Paul Daniels was "special" in the phenomenological appearance of his memory skills.

    Wouldn't it be nice, though, if it turned out DB was something else again? Stop. I'm not saying I think he is. I'm saying, wouldn't it vindicate our faith (ianmc38 excepted, of course, even though he believes in magic) in nature beyond nature if it turned out that he was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Ian, have a read of the charter before you continue posting and everyone can get along nicely.Thanks.

    As far as Brown goes, he states from the outset that all his stuff is just tricks and what he claims to be psychology (although many psychologists claim its all just tricks).

    He definatively states that there is nothing supernatural involved in his work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    psi wrote:
    As far as Brown goes, he states from the outset that all his stuff is just tricks and what he claims to be psychology (although many psychologists claim its all just tricks).

    He definatively states that there is nothing supernatural involved in his work.

    I think the point IPI is making is that he may be stating this for his own reasons and is in fact using other possibly paranormal means. If this was the case (big if) it makes sense as he is free to move around and make his money with trickery as opposed to claiming that his methods are paranormal in origin which would lead people to ridicule him and possibly target him as a freak.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    For me the most interesting tricks Derren Brown performs are when he manipulates people's thought processes. When he plays rock, paper, scissors. When he asked Stephen Fry to pick an object from a huge number of objects in the room he was in. They're amazing to watch and I think what he does involves a huge amount of skill/talent or whatever you want to call it.

    There's certainly no paranormal or supernatural elements to his shows as DB has stated on numerous occasions.

    I wouldn't like to play poker against him!

    Apologies to anyone who was offended by my remarks, as that wasn't the intention. I should really have posted in the Irish skeptics forum!!

    If/when you find the Loch Ness Monster i'll eat my hat.

    As much as I'd love to believe in some of these notions such as the existence of a Loch Ness Monster or a Yeti, I'm high


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    There are a lot of things I dont give much credence to, but just because I dont believe in say, fairies, I wont write off everything else. The Loch Ness Monster is a very different thing to the concept of remote viewing etc, and to lump them both together is a lazy thing to do and makes it harder to discuss either specifically.

    As for DB, I think hes an amazingly talented sleight of hand man. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 320 ✭✭Sysiphus


    I read this thread up until I saw people trying to propose the idea that "there are a lot of animal we haven't found" so the yeti musty be true and other such ****e (paranormal, tele-****e-geller-pick-your-belief),

    Ian is the only one that makes sense. While he/she says he is open minded, you decry him/her because they don't accept your brand of tripe. Skeptic is a bad word to most people, while "faith" is seen as a great thing.

    Me, I'll take proof over "belief" any day. as a former editor of new scientist once said in relation to the ambit of the magazine. "we are interested in science and exploration, if your not then **** off!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭kshiel


    Anyone catch his show on last night? He is an amazing entertainer, as for use of some paranormal gift, its possilble, but I have to say watching last night at the end of the show where he shows the audiance how he has been manipulated them into certain frame of mind or picking what he wishes them to, it is pure brilliant. The power of sugguestion is a very power tool and to be able to wheel it as he does is a skill that seems supernatural in its self, but he does state that he uses only relavant sciences of today so to speak and I guess I would have to take him on his word in that for now.

    I remember one show about a year or two ago where he brought people into a supposely haunted location, preformed amazing trickery to make the people involved believe they were communciating with a dead girl, only to bring the girl in alive and well at the end of the show. Does this mean that people who entered this building at a different time without DB and had experienced somesort of paranormal activity were deluding themselves, I dont think so. Only that this man was able to use his gifts or talent to make the people there that night with him believe by the end of it all that it was only the power of suggestion, pyschology, maths etc.

    the man is a very talented person in what he does and may process a skill that only a mere few in this world can control and use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭aphex™


    Just reading Derren's book. He has done lots and lots of great research into how paranormal tricks are carried out. The movement of the glass in the ouiji board is named as the ideomotor effect (google it), and he talks about some of the research people have done on it. "Tricks of the mind" is a great read.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    6th wrote:
    I think the point IPI is making is that he may be stating this for his own reasons and is in fact using other possibly paranormal means. If this was the case (big if) it makes sense as he is free to move around and make his money with trickery as opposed to claiming that his methods are paranormal in origin which would lead people to ridicule him and possibly target him as a freak.

    Well, as you said, that is a big "if"

    Its an interesting idea, but is there any real reason to suspect that he is doing this?

    He certainly does make up a lot of mumbo-jumbo about the psychological explanations for what he does, which are often simple magic tricks.

    But it is a bit of a stretch from that to saying that he actually possesses real magic powers but pretends he doesn't while pretending that it is all psychological tricks.

    If he does possess real powers the question that must be asked, as it should be asked with all mind readers, is why has all he done with this power is have a Channel 4 TV program where he pretends he doesn't have these powers. The claim often used in defence of traditional mind readers that they are respecting the ancient profession and don't seek great riches or fame clearly doesn't hold, since Brown doesn't seem to respect the profession of mind readers at all. So why not simply walk up to the first scientists he can find and say "I can read your mind and I can prove it"

    Of course he might not realise he actually is using supernatural powers, like the episode of Star Trek with the "Traveller" propelling the enterprise outside the known universe while all along the engineer guy thinks it is his new warp calculations .... or something :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    I dont think that the OP is the case at all, I was simply clarifying what I thought the OP meant. It is, of course, an interesting idea but a far fetched one.

    As for the question why not go up to a scientist? He is getting fame, money etc by doing what he does while having the freedom to walk around just like anyone else. If someone like this did open themselves up to science then maybe the pressure to 'use his powers' for the gain of different groups would be alot of pressure and he wouldnt get a moments peace?

    Like I said I dont think this is the case but if it were me then I would 'possibly' do just as he is doing.


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