House rules? ...follow on from Snappers thread

Scotty #

I'm a Green Joker Poker regular and rarely play anywhere else. I played my first Vegas Nights event Friday at the Anglers Rest and was amazed at the difference. VN seemed a much more "social" event, where GJ seems much more ermmm? Serious. Maybe it was "that Friday feeling".
I thoroughly enjoyed the night and it was great to catch up with boardies I don't see regular like Culchie, Ntl, and Rory. But one thing that struck me was the rule differences.

For example, I was having a smoke at the door near a table I was playing at. As I returned I noticed my BB out and my cards in front. As I sat down I was told it was up to me. I asked were my cards not dead and was told "no way" I'd paid to play with my BB. Later on in the night I was returning to another table and they were actually waiting for me. If I tried to play these hands at a GJ event in Drogheda I'd be lynched.

Another example was when I went all in. It was folded to the small blind who announced call and completed the big blind. When it was pointed out that it was 2100 to call he said "ohh, I didn't hear you" and took his chips back. No one batted an eyelid so I took it it was the done thing here as they were all regulars and I wasn't. Again, if someone did this at a GJ event they'd have to put in 2100.

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong but wouldn't life be a lot easier if poker tournament organisers could put a simple list of house rules on each table at each event? We all know the rules I'm talking about. Betting out of turn, revealing live hands, bum deals, discussing hands still in play, etc. etc.

Most, in fact nearly every time, you see a ruling being given its not because a player has intentionally broke a rule but because he didn't know it existed in the first place. I'm sure in The Snappers case (thread here) his opponent didn't know he was breaking the rules. He may not have been elsewhere but he was here because that's GJP rules. Had he read a list of rules before hand he may not have done it and if he did, he'd have no argument.

Wouldn't tournaments run a lot smoother and more peacefully if we all knew the rules beforehand?

Shortstack

I used to put a sheet of rules on the table at every game but nobody bothered reading them. I am currently working on a new set of rules which will go up the website and copies will be avaiable at all tournaments for those who wish to read them.

Poker & Pints

Scotty # wrote:

Another example was when I went all in. It was folded to the small blind who announced call and completed the big blind. When it was pointed out that it was 2100 to call he said "ohh, I didn't hear you" and took his chips back. No one batted an eyelid so I took it it was the done thing here as they were all regulars and I wasn't. Again, if someone did this at a GJ event they'd have to put in 2100.

Wrong decision, verbal is binding no matter and shoulda been enforced..period.

Scotty # wrote:

Wouldn't tournaments run a lot smoother and more peacefully if we all knew the rules beforehand?

Yes they would. But its hard when most don't know the rules themselves. Until there is a standard/governing body the rules will always be open to intepretation and enforcement.

And now not to be pessimistic/cynnical...but it is my belief you should go into any poker tournament knowing as many rules as possible and should never use ignorance or obliviousness as an excuse....Poker is about the only "sport" that has this oddity. When a ruling comes about you can challenge it.

Poker & Pints

Shortstack wrote:

I used to put a sheet of rules on the table at every game but nobody bothered reading them. I am currently working on a new set of rules which will go up the website and copies will be avaiable at all tournaments for those who wish to read them.

GJP and PE are the leaders IMO and should continue setting the standard.

ArmaniJeanss

I frequent bookmakers and they all have a 4foot by 2foot framed poster on the wall explaining the minutae of their rules dealing with the most obscure things they think can happen. (99% of punters never read, but thats by the by).
However it still doesnt stop arguments as things will happen that arent covered by the rules, and sometimes the rules will be clearcut but what transpires won't be (e.g., first goalscorer bets can be a nightmare if its not clear who scored, with TV and newspapers crediting different players).
So in poker the rules can only go so far - you will always need a strong fair tourny director with a dollop of commonsense, and for players to play the games in a sporting manner.

connie147

Poker & Pints wrote:

Wrong decision, verbal is binding no matter and shoulda been enforced..period.


I know this rule exists,but why?If it is obvious that the small blind only wanted to make up the big blind,why is it fair to make him call the all-in that he doesnt want to call.I cant see whats the problem with allowing the small blind get his chips back or at the worst suffering the loss of making up the big blind,surely this should come under the common sense rule.
I think this different rules is an excellent topic.I also think that Poker Events,Green Joker and other serious event organisers should sit down for a day and agree a set of rules that would govern most events accross this Island of ours.Poker is exploding and without a proper set of rules,arguements are a certainty.(dont wanna compare poker to pool but look at the arguements in pubs because theres different rules in operation in every bar).Im willing to get involved in a group to formulate a tournament set of rules,sooner rather than later,so who else is up for it?

NickyOD

connie147 wrote:

I know this rule exists,but why?If it is obvious that the small blind only wanted to make up the big blind,why is it fair to make him call the all-in that he doesnt want to call.I cant see whats the problem with allowing the small blind get his chips back or at the worst suffering the loss of making up the big blind,surely this should come under the common sense rule.
I think this different rules is an excellent topic.I also think that Poker Events,Green Joker and other serious event organisers should sit down for a day and agree a set of rules that would govern most events accross this Island of ours.Poker is exploding and without a proper set of rules,arguements are a certainty.(dont wanna compare poker to pool but look at the arguements in pubs because theres different rules in operation in every bar).Im willing to get involved in a group to formulate a tournament set of rules,sooner rather than later,so who else is up for it?

Verbal declarations have to be binding Connie. Otherwise this leaves certain situations open to exploitation. For example the SB calls and then sees the BB reach for his chips and says "oh wait it's 2000 to call? sorry I didn't know!!"

I think the correct response is tough ****e!

DeVore

I know what you mean but my honest opinion is: If you want to put money down in a competition where the rules arent consistent and depend on someones mood then be my guest. Personally I prefer to know that the TD is competent, unbiased and more then anything ... consistent.

For a 20 pound game I dont much care, for a 250 pound game I want the proper rules enforced and it isnt that there are loads of differing rules, there are just lots of "TD´s" out there who don´t know the rules and the reasons behind them.

I agree the main players should get together and agree a set of rules, but to be honest the differences between PE and GJP is very small. Donal is a good TD as I´ve said before, its a major reason why I play PE events.

DeV.

DeVore

Btw Scotty , you´ve changed your tune from this post where "rules are rules"

DeV.

connie147

DeVore wrote:

Iwant to put money down in a competition where the rules arent consistent and depend on someones mood then be my guest. Personally I pr know what you mean but my honest opinion is: If you efer to know that the TD is competent, unbiased and more then anything ... consistent.

For a 20 pound game I dont much care, for a 250 pound game I want the proper rules enforced and it isnt that there are loads of differing rules, there are just lots of "TD´s" out there who don´t know the rules and the reasons behind them.

I agree the main players should get together and agree a set of rules, but to be honest the differences between PE and GJP is very small. Donal is a good TD as I´ve said before, its a major reason why I play PE events.

DeV.

Hi Dev,
Im in full agreement,but really when we travel to play tourneys,you expect to meet the same rules.This string betting rule is completely being over-used,when are your cards alive/dead if your not at your chair,calling to make up the blind like the example above only to find someones all-in(and that is a fairly common occurance),theres probably plenty other little things but I believe we should have uniformity.I use the Poker Events rules within my club as my players travel to play in PE tourneys so rules are the same.I just think its time for a definitive set of rules for tournament play in Ireland.Is it too much to ask?

Pokerevents

connie147 wrote:

Hi Dev,
Im in full agreement,but really when we travel to play tourneys,you expect to meet the same rules.This string betting rule is completely being over-used,when are your cards alive/dead if your not at your chair,calling to make up the blind like the example above only to find someones all-in(and that is a fairly common occurance),theres probably plenty other little things but I believe we should have uniformity.I use the Poker Events rules within my club as my players travel to play in PE tourneys so rules are the same.I just think its time for a definitive set of rules for tournament play in Ireland.Is it too much to ask?

I totally agree Connie, this string bet rule is gone completely nutty. We enforce it with caution and dealers are now instructed to explain to the player to announce what they want to do b4hand. It seems it a opportunity for experienced players(players who think they are) to jump down the novices throat.

I played a cardroom last week that I would consider the best in the country and one of the best in Europe. It was a while since I played but was shocked that the rules or lack of was so prominent.

1) A stack with a empty seat was being blinded away. I was in the button position and the absent player was on the big blind. I looked down at my cards and as I did a person brushed against my back and sat down in the empty seat. As I considered playing the hand I said to the dealer surely that hand is dead, the dealer said no and I mucked saying that playing was standing right behind me as I looked at my cards. The player was seriously thick with me and said "I was 'nt looking at your cards", I told him very politely I had never said he looked at my cards but the possibility was there and it's not comfortable for a player in the hand to have a opponent standing behind them and then had to compete against them. He said the house rule was the big blind could be played once the player arrived before it was action on them, however he did acknowledge the point I made.
2) When a player went all-in the dealer automatically counted the all-in players chips.

5starpool

Pokerevents wrote:

2) When a player went all-in the dealer automatically counted the all-in players chips.

I am annoyed when dealers don't do this. For a decent dealer it only takes a few seconds. The exception being when this player clearly has everyone else covered.

Pokerevents

5starpool wrote:

I am annoyed when dealers don't do this. For a decent dealer it only takes a few seconds. The exception being when this player clearly has everyone else covered.

Surely it is up to a player to request the stack size of the all in before the dealer should give a count.

5starpool

Pokerevents wrote:

Surely it is up to a player to request the stack size of the all in before the dealer should give a count.

I think we shall have to agree to disagree here. If the dealer can do a quick efficient count of the chips then no need to go around the table where potentially someone says call, puts out all their chips too which is around the same amount, then someone else asks for counts and then both stacks have to be counted in a row and so on, with the second person being stuck with a few chips left over which they can't put in the pot this time unless there is more betting etc etc.

A bit of a silly example but I have seen this carry on happening. Counting chips at the start is the method I prefer (probably cause this is what I am used to). Saying that though I almost always announce the amount of my all in anyhow and count the chips on the table myself as well so this negates the need for the dealer to do it.

Pokerevents

It is true that many players and a lot of dealers are used to doing a count without the request, but my understanding is this is completely wrong, and unfair to the player going all-in. I was not aware how serious this rule is untill I played in the states where they will bite the head off a dealer who does a count without a request. Take this for a example. WSOP the year Julia Gardener came second. Julian got into a raising war pre-flop and ended up head to head in a monster pot. The player (who I dont know but if you research the hendon mob articles, you can get the full details) made a significant bet (the majority of julians remaining chips, but he did'nt realise that as Julian had a massive amount of small value chips) Julian dwells and then announces all in as he pushes his tank. The player is really pissed and calls fold, only to say no hold on, how much is that bet. The dealer explains to the player he declared fold. It turns out the all-in would not have cost the player that much more, but did'nt stop to think of asking for a count. The point is if the dealer had automatically started counting Julians chips the played would have certainly called. It is clear from this situation how important it is for a dealer not to influence any decisions and counting a players all in can influence a call. It is up to a player to request the dealer to do a count.

5starpool

Ok, in an event the size of the WSOP where player can have chipstacks the size of small countries it is not feasible to count every allin when it happens. I see the point of your example, and the argument for standard rules is irrefutable.

I suppose *if* this was part of a new standardised ruleset then it would have to be the 'on-request' method that was chosen for the times when there are huge numbers of chips in play, but I think dealer discretion can and should be used normally. When it is a quick 5 second job to count, then count it, if not then it is usually going to be enough to prompt someone to either fold, or call (if headsup) without a count.

I don't think there is enough common sense applied in poker and too much of an "it's the rule" attitude.

Pokerevents

You are missing the logic of the rule It is absolutly nothing to do with the amount of chips in play. It is also nothing to with whether the dealer can or cnnot do a count promtly. It is because a count may influence a player to call when he decided to pass, while this is fine in itself the count should be requested by the player who is competing in a competition, not the dealer, who is simply there to deal the cards and award the pots.

5starpool

I am not missing any logic. I understand what you are saying perfectly. I am just stating a personal preference.

Pokerevents

5starpool wrote:

I am not missing any logic. I understand what you are saying perfectly. I am just stating a personal preference.

Excuse my ignorance.
I think we are of the same opinion the rules need to be drawn up and documented. The sooner the better.

Scotty #

DeVore wrote:

I know what you mean but my honest opinion is: If you want to put money down in a competition where the rules arent consistent and depend on someones mood then be my guest. Personally I prefer to know that the TD is competent, unbiased and more then anything ... consistent.

Inconsistency over different tourney organisers I presume? I never suggested inconsistency within vegas nights!!

changed my tune? How?
Rules are rules and should be stuck to. I'm just saying that it struck me the contrast between one tourney and another. I think both run a good tourney and I'm happy to play within both sets of rules. I wasn't complaining that VN didn't have the same rules as GJ. Going back to Snappers thread:rolleyes: ...if it was within the rules for that player to expose his cards then I'd have no problem with him doing so.

My point was...wouldn't it make life easier for TD's, dealers, and players alike if players got the opportunity to see a list of rules before the tourney. Then the player doesn't have to break the rule and lose chips before being made aware that that rule exists. I don't particularly mind if its the exact same set of rules at each tourney or not. Lots of sports have slight variations within the same game but they usually know before they start playing which one they'll be playing that day

We could start a whole set of threads to argue each rule to death but that's not why I started this thread.

RoundTower

Pokerevents wrote:

When a player went all-in the dealer automatically counted the all-in players chips.

This, like the other objection you had, is standard in the Fitz but not elsewhere.

roryc

Scotty # wrote:

For example, I was having a smoke at the door near a table I was playing at. As I returned I noticed my BB out and my cards in front. As I sat down I was told it was up to me. I asked were my cards not dead and was told "no way" I'd paid to play with my BB. Later on in the night I was returning to another table and they were actually waiting for me. If I tried to play these hands at a GJ event in Drogheda I'd be lynched.

I let this go because it is a much more laidback atmosphere. Id never stand for this in a real game.

NickyOD

Pokerevents wrote:

Excuse my ignorance.
I think we are of the same opinion the rules need to be drawn up and documented. The sooner the better.

Every casino and tournament organiser will have atleast one rule or spin on an existing rule that is different form everywhere else. That doesn't necessarily mean that the ruling is wrong or better, its just not the same. The rule that a players hand is not declared dead until action is forced on him and he's not in his seat is much more common than the rule that the hand is dead as soon as the first card hits the table and he's not in his seat.

Pokerevents has a ruling which I personally find completely ridiculous which is if you decide you want to show one of your cards when when winning a pot without a showdown you can be forced to show the other card if a player asks to see it, even when no one paid to see both your cards. As far as I'm aware this ruling is unique to poker events and should any official rules be "drawn up and documented" it certainly wouldn't be included.

The fact is that is that until cardrooms and poker tournaments need to comply with a certain ruleset in order to operate legally then rulings will be different everywhere, and that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Pokerevents

Quote Nicky "
Every casino and tournament organiser will have atleast one rule or spin on an existing rule that is different form everywhere else. That doesn't necessarily mean that the ruling is wrong or better, its just not the same. The rule that a players hand is not declared dead until action is forced on him and he's not in his seat is much more common than the rule that the hand is dead as soon as the first card hits the table and he's not in his seat."

The standard rule, and what I mean by a standard is a rule set out by TDA (tournament directors association) which the WSOP & WPT, have adopted, is when the dealer has dealt the second card to the button position the hand of any player not in the sitting position is dead. It was not common in Ireland and that is why we have enforced it harshly by deeming a hand dead by the first card that hits the table, it gets the message across. I believe it is far more common now as last years Irish Open brought in the same rule and I believe Mike has now also adopted it.

Quote Nicky "Pokerevents has a ruling which I personally find completely ridiculous which is if you decide you want to show one of your cards when when winning a pot without a showdown you can be forced to show the other card if a player asks to see it, even when no one paid to see both your cards. As far as I'm aware this ruling is unique to poker events and should any official rules be "drawn up and documented" it certainly wouldn't be included."

Again Nicky this is something we have thought about and discussed having looked at the different rules worldwide. This is a standard rule in all cardrooms/casino's in the state of California. I believe it is the rule in the Fitzwilliam also. Nevada & Europe it is Different.
The reason we adopted it was to keep taunting and teasing at a minimum, however we do make clear that it is not good etiquette to request to see the second card , but it is there to stop assholes like myself constantly winding up players by giving them just half the story after they fold and then just revealing the one card.

DeVore

The "show one show both" rule is standard in the Fitz and I believe elsewhere, it rarely happens but the other card can be requested.

An all in bet should of course be counted by default imho, every other bet is declared by the player and should be repeated by the dealer. Every action should be clearly announced at the table and that includes all in bets and their amounts. Again imho but I believe it to be the standard in the European casinos I've visited.

DeV.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Every casino and tournament organiser will have atleast one rule or spin on an existing rule that is different form everywhere else. That doesn't necessarily mean that the ruling is wrong or better, its just not the same. The rule that a players hand is not declared dead until action is forced on him and he's not in his seat is much more common than the rule that the hand is dead as soon as the first card hits the table and he's not in his seat."

Fintan is right, the other rule is standard.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

Fintan is right, the other rule is standard.

The Pokerevents rule is actually different. Dealers are forcing players to show the second card even when nobody at the tbale asks to see it.

RoundTower

Yeah that rule is crap and not standard and encourages pettiness rather than discourages it. But if you read my post I was talking about hands being dead when the player is not in his seat.

Pokerevents

NickyOD wrote:

The Pokerevents rule is actually different. Dealers are forcing players to show the second card even when nobody at the tbale asks to see it.

In the event of a showdown a player showing only one card will be requested by the dealer to show the other in order to claim the pot.
For a dealer to show the second card of a player who has already won the pot and then decides to show one is completely wrong and the floor should be called as the dealer is mistaken and needs to be instructed. This has happened me last year on one occasion but not since.
Pokerevents rule is a player must request to see the other card.

NickyOD

Pokerevents wrote:

In the event of a showdown a player showing only one card will be requested by the dealer to show the other in order to claim the pot.
For a dealer to show the second card of a player who has already won the pot and then decides to show one in completely wrong and the floor should be called as the dealer is mistaken and needs to be instructed. This has happened me last year on one occasion but not since.

Its still going on. I saw it at Galway again this weekend. Player shows one card and throws te other on top of the muck. Dealer decided to turn over the second card.

Pokerevents

NickyOD wrote:

Its still going on. I saw it at Galway again this weekend. Player shows one card and throws te other on top of the muck. Dealer decided to turn over the second card.

This is a dealer error and the floor should be called. I will make sure a complete set of rules is documented so players know exactly where they stand. I will have this available for our next super-satellite and have no problem posting them here for persons to view.
In fact I think a new thread should be created with each organizations rules, which could be debated as to their merits. Maybe we could use this at a later stage to form a standard that will be the norm.

DeVore

Hang on a second, was this a showdown to claim a pot or had everyone folded to a bet?

If it was a showdown between two or more players, then to claim a pot you MUST show both cards. If the player doesnt do it, the dealer should. If the player tries to be smart and toss it on the muck then I (as a player at that table) want it shown. If it cant be retrieved from the muck, I want that player warned and then punished if he repeats it.

The reason behind this is that I want to know he has only ONE other card and that its not a duplicate of a card on board. Take the case where a king high flop comes down. A cheat switches his hand with one with a king in it, however the river comes down and duplicates his kicker, now he has a problem, if he shows both its going to be clear he cheated. This also works for simply adding a card to your hand and dumping the other two into the muck, plus the other players paid to see the hand in its entirety and since you are claiming the money you should show them. Theres a number of other reasons for this rules (including anti-collusion between 2 players against a third) etc etc. At showdown, all hands should be shown, its only a politeness that we generally allow a player who is conceding fold unseen in order to avoid embarrassment. Even then I sometimes ask, particularly if I got bet out of the pot and then its won by a weak hand and a concession. I want to know I'm not being team played.


If its NOT a showdown, then the player should either show nothing or be prepared to be asked to show the second. The dealer shouldnt show the second card by default unless a player asks for it.

DeV.

Pokerevents

What Nicky was talking about was a case where the table folded to a bet, player decides to show 1 card and dealer turns the other without a request.

RoundTower

Pokerevents wrote:

What Nicky was talking about was a case where the table folded to a bet, player decides to show 1 card and dealer turns the other without a request.

This happened at my table at the Pokerevents game in January. Overall I thought the dealers were pretty good though.

Rockfish

Poker & Pints wrote:

GJP and PE are the leaders IMO and should continue setting the standard.

I have never seen any rules at PE events, but at least there are dealers at every table who seem to know what they are at.

Pokerevents

Rockfish wrote:

I have never seen any rules at PE events, but at least there are dealers at every table who seem to know what they are at.

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Verbal Disclosing Content

Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may

result in a penalty.



Less Than Full Raise

An all in bet of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who already has

acted.



Show One-Show All

If cards are shown to one player they must be shown to all players. Also, if one card is shown the second card should be shown by the dealer if requested by any other player.

RoundTower

Looks like these rules were cut and pasted at least in part from something like the TDA rules. For example I don't believe Pokerevents operates a casino, but there is one mentioned in the text. Certainly the rules have changed from the ones I read at the last Pokerevents event I attended (admittedly some time ago).

Pokerevents wrote:

Odd Chips
In a split pot the odd chip(s) will be awarded to the player involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction.

Here's one we discussed recently. Do you think this is a better rule than to give the odd chips to the players left of the button in order, with no player getting more than one odd chip? If so, why?

Scotty #

Pokerevents wrote:

Penalties
A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if soft-play occurs, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behaviour, or similar incidents.

What constitutes soft play exactly??

Pokerevents wrote:

Rabbit Hunting

No rabbit hunting is allowed.

Never heard of this before. What is it?

Pokerevents wrote:

Expose

A player who deliberately exposes his cards during the play may have his hand killed, or have
a penalty imposed.

So can you expose or can't you?

I think the rules here are very vague. There seems to be a lot of "may's"

Pokerevents

RoundTower wrote:

Looks like these rules were cut and pasted at least in part from something like the TDA rules. For example I don't believe Pokerevents operates a casino, but there is one mentioned in the text. Certainly the rules have changed from the ones I read at the last Pokerevents event I attended (admittedly some time ago).


Here's one we discussed recently. Do you think this is a better rule than to give the odd chips to the players left of the button in order, with no player getting more than one odd chip? If so, why?

It is the same thing That is what we do.

And we do base our rules on the TDA charter as does the WSOP,WPT,EPT and now the NW American tour.

Pokerevents

Scotty # wrote:

What constitutes soft play exactly??

Soft play is a type of collusion when one player is playing into another.
E.G My friend and I are at the same table. We play a hand heads up, he's out of position and checks it to me. I have the nuts but still check it down. That would classed as soft play.

Never heard of this before. What is it?

I'm heads up with you and I go all-in on the turn, you fold your nut flush draw, but are curious as to what card would have come up.
Rabbit hunting is when a player requests the dealer to show what card would have come up if the hand were to continue.

So can you expose or can't you?

No you can't but if you do , pending on the circumstances you could be penalised or your hand could be deemed dead.
e.g 1)I go to fold my hand and as I muck a card accidentally turns, there is still action, but in this case the player would not be penalised.
e.g 2)I'm in early position and go to fold my A 10 while delibertly hitting dealers hand so the cards are exposed and players can see how tight I am.
This should be warned and penalised if repeated.
e.g 3)I'm in seat #10 UTG with AA and raise, I dont see seat # 1 call (this is common place with a weak dealer), it's folded right around to the BB and I show the table my AA thinking I've no action. It's a obvious mistake with absolutly no advantage to me. Ruling should be I'm held to check , but no other penalty.
e.g 4) I'm heads up and go all-in on a 666 9 A board, player is considering a call, I have 6 2 and delibertly expose my 2 to try and induce a call.
Hand would be deemed dead as player was trying to gain advantage by exposing his cards.
I could go on all night but It's basic common sense and I think you should read the opening paragraph to understand what we are about.

I think the rules here are very vague. There seems to be a lot of "may's"

How much live poker do you play?
How many rulings have you actually seen?
Most are down to the directors intelligence and his interpetation of what has happened. Many times it's not so black and white but again it's about fair play and understanding the game which takes time and much experience of the different situations that arise

RoundTower

RoundTower wrote:

Odd Chips
In a split pot the odd chip(s) will be awarded to the player involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction.

Do you think this is a better rule than to give the odd chips to the players left of the button in order, with no player getting more than one odd chip? If so, why?

Pokerevents wrote:

It is the same thing That is what we do.

And we do base our rules on the TDA charter as does the WSOP,WPT,EPT and now the NW American tour.

No this is NOT the same rule and I hope if you are running the tournament you understand the meaning of the rules you use, even if you just copied them from someone else.

For example, lets say the pot is 650 and the smallest chip is 25 and it is being split 3 ways between the small blind, the big blind and the button. So give everyone 200 and there are 2 odd chips. Under your rule they both go to the small blind. This is extremely clear from the wording of the rule above. Under my rule, which I think is fairer, one chip would go to the small blind and one to the big blind.

Perhaps you think you are already using my rule? In that case you should change the relevant entry in the rulebook.

Pokerevents

In a split pot the odd chip(s) will be awarded to the player involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction.

This is a split pot. It is to be split evenly. No player can recieve more than 1 chip more than the other. The odd chip (s) goes to the player involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction as stated above. Under this rule with a 650 pot to be split 3 ways (between sb bb and button) the sb, & bb would recieve 25 extra each.

Quote Roundtower
"No this is NOT the same rule and I hope if you are running the tournament you understand the meaning of the rules you use, even if you just copied them from someone else"
This looks like your trying to be nasty here.
Our policy with rulings is to explain to the player the reason behind the decision. I can remember but one complaint in the last 18months from a player. We do copy our rules from others, namely Matt Savage, Thomas Kremser, Linda Johnson and Luke Ivory.
We considered what they have told us and Donal has come up with the above set of rules.
If you study them you will notice they are fact unique as we have taken what we believe to be the best advice from each of these true poker people.
Your comment on the rules is appreciated but please tell us something we dont already know.

5starpool

He is telling you that the wording in your rule for odd chips seems to contradict the practice in that the rule states that the odd chip(s) go to the player closest to the dealer button, implying that one person can get more than one chip, whereas in practice it seems to be the standard (irish standard anyhow) that a player can only get one chip and they are distributed in a clockwose manner from the left. I hardly think it is meant to be nasty, bit some people do not like contradictions.

This is not likely to be something that a person would cause a ruckus over, but it is plausible that there would be some confusion with someone who has read the rules prior to playing a PE tournament for the first time.

I think the word "chip(s)" is the crucial one here, and as you say you are going to update your rules soon it would be good to remove this ambiguity.

jacQues

My personal opinion: Counting the chips when a player goes all-in should always be done.

First argument: A player says "bet" and throws a large number of differently coloured chips behind the line (all at once and about 20% of his/her total stack). These chips should be counted simply because a player wanting to call this bet needs to know how many chips to put out and a player wanting to raise this bet needs to know what the minimum raise would be.

Question: How is an all-in any different? (rules-wise) To me it is not. Actually, its more important to count when all-in in order for players to determine a possible "under-raise" situation.

Second argument: Couldn't "not counting unless asked" seen as (however remotely) hiding bigger valued chips behind lower valued chips? Not giving your opponent all available information is simply not on. For a player to have to ask for a chip count is silly, bordering to stupid.

When someone goes all-in, just as like with a good bet, people considering calling/raising will want to know how much. As simple as that. The only exception is when a BIG stack is calling a small stack. But even then (s)he will need to know how much it is in order to get the pot correctly before continueing ("working it our later" is sloppy IMHO). If no-one is considering this then a chip count is not needed, just as when everyone will fold to any bet it doesn't matter what bet is done. Still, when I say bet and put in a random amount of chips its sloppy and must be counted immediately. An all-in is the exact same situation, just more chips to count.

Any TO who has the rule to not count until asked should consider the following example: Three players left. Button is chip leader by far with 50K, SB has about 10K and BB has about 2K. Blinds are 200/400. Button says "raise" and throws in a random amount of chips. It looks about 1K but nobody cared to ask. SB calls, throwing in just over 1K and BB goes all-in. The button then says "sure, fine, all-in too" and throws in the rest of his/her chips. At this point the SB says "hold on; BB's raise was an underraise so you cannot raise any more". Now what? There is no way to backtrack.

You need exact chip counts for every bet. Chips behind the line are different and only counted on request. But any chips over the line must always be counted. This is the rule for all poker events I organise.

jacQues

patmac

Pokerevents wrote:

RULES FOR POKEREVENTS TOURNAMENTS



At Table

A player must be at the table by the time the first card is dealt to any player in order to have

his hand live. Players must be at the table to call time

I recently played one of your pub tournaments which was starting for the first time and long after it had started as I was dealing I automatically mucked the cards of a player who wasn't there. He then sat down after the betting had gone round saw his pair of Queens and started getting quite aggressive and made a few snidy remarks about why I couldn't have waited, this made me feel very uncomfortable for a while afterwards as he was making comments at the bar etc during the interval.
I think if any company is starting a tourny in a new place with a lot of players new to the game with self dealers then basic rules should be announced as it is not fair on those who know them and could avoid situations like the one above.

Pokerevents

patmac wrote:

I recently played one of your pub tournaments which was starting for the first time and long after it had started as I was dealing I automatically mucked the cards of a player who wasn't there. He then sat down after the betting had gone round saw his pair of Queens and started getting quite aggressive and made a few snidy remarks about why I couldn't have waited, this made me feel very uncomfortable for a while afterwards as he was making comments at the bar etc during the interval.
I think if any company is starting a tourny in a new place with a lot of players new to the game with self dealers then basic rules should be announced as it is not fair on those who know them and could avoid situations like the one above.

Hi Pat , did u play last night?
We are currently doing up a set of rules for the pub events which will be less rigid than our weekly main tourney's with dealers.

RoundTower

Reread your own rulebook before you tell me I'm trying to be nasty or that you already know what I'm telling you. I'm not and you don't.

Fintan's rule

Pokerevents wrote:

In a split pot the odd chip(s) will be awarded to the player involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction.

Fintan's interpretation

This is a split pot. It is to be split evenly. No player can recieve more than 1 chip more than the other. The odd chip (s) goes to the player involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction as stated above. Under this rule with a 650 pot to be split 3 ways (between sb bb and button) the sb, & bb would recieve 25 extra each.

The rule you use makes it very clear that the odd chip or chips go to the player involved closest to the button, i.e. the SB. The or chips specifically provides for one player to get more than one odd chip. This is the rule used in some places, for example online at pokerstars.com. The rule does not say "no player can receive more than 1 chip more than the other" or "the odd chips may be distributed among more than one player" or any of the other things you have in your interpretation.

There are two possible rules here, both of which are in use in different places. I know which rule you use in practice and it is the standard rule here and the one I prefer. However your rulebook gives the other rule.

I am sure what has happened here is that you copied and pasted the rule from someone else's rulebook. You didn't read the rule carefully, and assumed it said what you expected it to. It doesn't.

Pokerevents

RoundTower wrote:

Reread your own rulebook before you tell me I'm trying to be nasty or that you already know what I'm telling you. I'm not and you don't.

Fintan's rule

Fintan's interpretation

The rule you use makes it very clear that the odd chip or chips go to the player involved closest to the button, i.e. the SB. The or chips specifically provides for one player to get more than one odd chip. This is the rule used in some places, for example online at pokerstars.com. The rule does not say "no player can receive more than 1 chip more than the other" or "the odd chips may be distributed among more than one player" or any of the other things you have in your interpretation.

There are two possible rules here, both of which are in use in different places. I know which rule you use in practice and it is the standard rule here and the one I prefer. However your rulebook gives the other rule.

I am sure what has happened here is that you copied and pasted the rule from someone else's rulebook. You didn't read the rule carefully, and assumed it said what you expected it to. It doesn't.

In a split pot the odd chip(s) will be awarded to the player(s) involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction.

This is what the rule should read like for it to be exact without the interpetation you have presented.
I said, it looks like your trying to be nasty, with the nit-picking together with the tone of your post adds further evidence to that.
Why there is not a unified voice here in Ireland that can simply produce a documented set of rules to develop the game for the better I'm now beginning to understand. There are too many knockers. Anyone who is trying to do anything about is not supported.
Thanks for constructive advice Roundtower. Good luck.

RoundTower

Pokerevents wrote:

In a split pot the odd chip(s) will be awarded to the player(s) involved who is closest to the button in a clockwise direction.

This is what the rule should read like for it to be exact without the interpetation you have presented.

I concur.

patmac

Pokerevents wrote:

Hi Pat , did u play last night?
We are currently doing up a set of rules for the pub events which will be less rigid than our weekly main tourney's with dealers.

Yeah good crowd 35 players some new notably from CPT bragging about how great their tourney is shows that they read boards even though they won't come on it (In an official capacity anyway) but I think weve done that one to death. Struggled after my house kings got beaten by house aces on the river which I dealt myself (not very clever, there can't be any worse feeling than dealing your opponent an ace on the river on an A9k flop when your all in with KK and your opponent has Ak), didn't want that to sound like a bad beat. Left as the final table started as I was wrecked from the Athlone tourney the night before, hard work all this poker, but not good enough yet to give up the day job.

Rockfish

Rabbit Hunting

No rabbit hunting is allowed.

What on earth does this mean??

Moving Players

Players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position.

What is the worst position?

Thanks