poker players with morals

sprocket1

in the merrion friday night
sat in at the €50 b/in holdem only table after the tourney
about an hour in ,a drunk comes in ,does not know how to play at all and drops €750 in about 30 mins , dealer trys to project him and some of the players by telling him to relax a bit but hes seem quite happy and says hes fine, he has it sussed now (after 3 hands) hes playing every hand ,calling every bet on the flop ,turn ,and river, generally dos'nt even look at his cards its madness!!! and really funny(at the start)and hes laughing along with us while hes being cleaned out .
but its getting stupid now and people are really looking uncomfortable taking his money .anyway he heads off to the toilet and we all agree we didnt want him at the table as we felt he had lost enough so arranged for the floor manager (mark)to send him elsewhere

what would you have done?

ArmaniJeanss

Tis a very thin line - on balance I wouldnt feel comfortable and I would like to think I would have the decency to leave the table, but the bad person in me would like to get my share of the loot first.

valor

Taken his money

Ollieboy

Firstly, its not your fault he loss his money and that he's sitting at a table drunk and not in a fit state to play cards.

But I hate these situation myself and I would like to see the floor managers remove the player for his own safety.

There's a difference between outplaying someone and beating them or outdrawn them, than taken advantage, as this is an example of taken advantage, this person could have other troubles in his life and blowing of steam and taken his money is not going to help him.

Morals of life have to play a part here, how would you feel if you heard a bad story about him the next day etc.

I remember a situation like this happen to me once and a very nice kind man start talking to the guy and he start to spill out all his problems, in a funny way I'm sure it help the guy, I suppose a poker table is one place where you can pay people to listen to you.

I think you did the right thing. wp

Marq

If he wants to play, let him play. But I would often (as a player, very rarely as a dealer) encourage him not to play. I would never have agreed to what you agreed to.

myflipflops

i agree completely with marq: reason with the guy, if he decides to stay then thats his choice. the fact is, if he outdraws you with some ridiculous runner runner and takes a few hundred quid off you, he's not going to give it back.

Ollieboy

Just to make a point, your not allowed to serve drink to a person who is already drunk, so why should it be any different at a casino, ie dealing him cards, I know its not the same, but the person is not able to make a proper decision for himself. Taken a lot of money of a person like this, creates a negative image for the game and players.

Casino's should included it in there door policy not to allow people in you are drunk, been merry is a lot different.

Daithio

The cardroom manager should be keeping an eye on situations like this, and kick him out if he is that drunk and obviously doesn't know how to play. He's not aware of what he is doing and shouldn't have been allowed into the casino in the first place, if the cardroom manager didn't have the cop on to tell him not to play then I think it is up to the players.

Ozzy

If he was an asshole, i'd have no problem taking his money. But if he was a good guy,then I think i'd be an asshole to take his money. Moral of the story, don't play whilst drunk (and don't be an asshole)!

jtsuited

I saw something like this happen about two weeks ago in the fitz when there was a drunk at the table and every hand was one of us trying to get heads up with him. Normally I would love this type of player and they're the ideal type of player to be playing on a saturday night ( it was a tuesday!). But (maybe i'm wising up as i get old) I genuinely felt guilty afterwards, as I really felt bad for the guy.

He must have dropped about a grand in the time I was there, and it was obvious the guy was really badly chasing to get even again.
And then on the drive home i started thinking.

Alcohol can bring out the worst stubborn side in many of the nicest people, and i've seen many genuinely nice people turn into completely arrogant people when they're drunk. I've also seen firsthand the damage alcoholism does to people.
Suppose I hear from a friend how their dad who has a serious drinking problem has started losing money gambling while drunk. All the family and other implications of this are not even worth thinking about.
I had always been of the opinion that people choose to play poker, and it's their own fault if they're losing (which i still think).

But when alcohol is put into the equation, i think sometimes things change. Someone who is completely hammered is in no state to make rational 'choices'. Throw in an actual alcohol problem, and suddenly we're talking major emotional issues which are going to complicate things further. I can think of three distinct times when I was playing in a cash game with the sole intention of taking money off the drunk who's drinking was obviously a lot more than just a social activity (the guys were complete alcoholics). It's the correct poker playing thing to do. But i'm a human first and a poker player second. I hope!!!
In saying that, I have no problem with playing youngish drunk lads who are out playing poker after the pubs etc. close. I do it all the time. But what I'm talking about here is older men with obvious alcohol and gambling problems who most likely have families, who can't afford to drop the sort of money they do.

It's probably because I've had plenty of first hand experience of addicts (to everything) and I don't like the feeling that i've cashed in on their serious problems.
Anyone else ever have this crisis of conscience?

Marq

Ollieboy wrote:

why should it be any different at a casino, ie dealing him cards

Ollieboy wrote:

its not the same

.

Marq

I can't afford to lose a grand in a night at the moment. But as a poker player sometimes that's going to happen to me. do you feel sorry for me jeff?

jtsuited

do you have a family to take care of marq? Or a drinking problem that's adversely effecting your family?

Like I say, it's specific situations that i'm talking about. The majority of the time, it's people's own choice to play and hence own fault when they lose. most of the time

Samba

Of course there is always another argument.

Tell me what would you have done had the deck hit him in the head and he built up a 2k stack

Such wreckless play can on occasion result in what I call a Donkey Stack.

I've often been donkied and watched idiots pat each other on the back and say "well done", "you played the hand well". (having caught a gut shot with all the money in on the turn)

Do you ask the gent to leave, because he is taking all your money?

unfortunately, he may well have wandered up the road and donated another k at the Fitz.

From my past horrible donkey suckouts, im taking these guys money at every possible occasion because manny of them have robbed me in the past!

If you have issues or morals on this subject, I suggest you don't play cash games.

Because if you don't take the money. Some one else will, IMO that's the harsh bitter reality of the situation.

cardshark202

Take all his money, every cent, wish him well and tell him you'll see him next week at the tables.

jtsuited

Samba wrote:

If you have issues or morals on this subject, I suggest you don't play cash games.

Please take note that i am speaking of a completely specific situation here. It's only happened me three times, and it's not the usual 'let's get paid by the drunk donkey'. It's the times when the people are so hammered and evidently are losing massive amounts of money and chasing. And are really really drunk, and not anyway near merry.

Daithio

If a player is drunk and obviously not in control of his decisions and actions then he shouldn't be allowed to play whether he is winning or losing, simple as that. The winning or losing part wouldn't come into it if the cardroom manager in this case had been responsible enough not to let him sit down in the first place. Because obviously sometimes drunks will end up at the table through negligence on the part of the casino staff, then I think that it's just common decency to tell him he shouldn't play/ ask the staff to remove him.

Ollieboy

Marq wrote:

.

I was using it as an example Marq, you cant do most things in this country while drunk, or any country for that matter,so why should poker be any different?

Ollieboy

Daithio wrote:

If a player is drunk and obviously not in control of his decisions and actions then he shouldn't be allowed to play whether he is winning or losing, simple as that. The winning or losing part wouldn't come into it if the cardroom manager in this case had been responsible enough not to let him sit down in the first place. Because obviously sometimes drunks will end up at the table through negligence on the part of the casino staff, then I think that it's just common decency to tell him he shouldn't play/ ask the staff to remove him.

Totally agreed Dave. Were all worried about the image of poker at the moment and that the casino's might be force to closed in the future, if this guy drop 5k in a night and couldn't remember much the next day, he could go on a radio show and create a very negative image of poker and the players.

There's also the legal situation, I'm sure if he drop a couple of k, that he can take legal action against the casino for allowing him to play while drunk. Didnt a person win a case against a pub for letting him drive home after letting him get drunk or kept given him drink while he was drunk!

I agree with Samba also, more times I've seen these people get lucky, but it should be a standard rule, if drunk, you dont play.

At the end of the day, poker is about profit, but not profiting from the weak in society. I've no problem taken money from a guy if he doesn't know how to play, but from a drunk, thats weak.

RoundTower

sprocket1 wrote:

what would you have done?

Send him to the fitz, I'll PM you my phone number.

MrPillowTalk

I have no problem with people playing with someone in that kind of state, however if I was there I would encourage him to stop. If he still didnt leave and was losing hand over fist and I felt he couldnt afford it then I would quit the game, I play poker to win money but I want to win it not be given it by someone who cant afford to lose it.

Other side of the coin though, if he was a wealthy guy who was happy enough to lose the money and found the game entertaining I probably stay in the game.

Hectorjelly

Some funny stuff in this thread. Do you think a guy losing large amounts of money at a table is going to go home with all the money you save him by refusing to play him, and then give it to his family so they can eat for the month, or waste it in some other - EV gamble.

A huge % of the players playing online at night are drinking, if you play in vegas most of the table will be tanked up - poker and drinking go well together.

5starpool

I love to see random drunk people sitting at the Omaha tables in the Fitz for 2 reasons.

1. They usually don't have a clue hoe to play Omaha.
2. They lose all their money usually.

hotspur

I've seen people sitting at roulette in casinos here who were so drunk they could barely see. Taking money from people who are very mentally incapacitated (even if it was their own doing) is morally equalivant to suckering someone with a learning disability out of their money or a scumbag door to door insurance salesman ripping off an 80 year old woman with Alzheimer's. Letting obviously drunk people into casinos is wrong and should be contrary to our new Gaming & Leisure Association's charter in relation to protecting vulnerable people. But it's kind of hard to argue the ethical principle to an industry which is predicated on taking advantage of suckers.

It shouldn't be up to the poker players at the table to have to make the call, but I respect eveyone who said that they wouldn't take the guy's money beyond a certain point.

Daithio

Hectorjelly wrote:

Some funny stuff in this thread. Do you think a guy losing large amounts of money at a table is going to go home with all the money you save him by refusing to play him, and then give it to his family so they can eat for the month, or waste it in some other - EV gamble.

A huge % of the players playing online at night are drinking, if you play in vegas most of the table will be tanked up - poker and drinking go well together.

That's not much of an argument. It does happen online, and it does happen in Vegas, but that doesn't mean that it should happen here.

ArmaniJeanss

Hectorjelly wrote:

if you play in vegas most of the table will be tanked up - poker and drinking go well together.

I think this is different - many would regard it as part of the whole tourist thing - get tanked up and play some cards like a highroller. Theyve budgeted the gambling money as part of their holiday anyway.

And online you can at least have a clear conscience as you cannot know who is drunk or not.

sprocket1

as i said to the rest of the people at the table (while the mark was in the bog)
if i was a pro player and i depended on my poker winnings for a living ,i would take all he had and be happy about it (i mean isnt this the ideal situtation for a good player )but none at the table were pro's so we came to that "gentlemens" agreement
the floor manager said " if a certain crew were at the table there would be a telephone call made for people to come inand join)it had happened two weeks previous and that time the guy lost his shirt,pants and jocks €5k approx he said

sprocket1

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I think this is different - many would regard it as part of the whole tourist thing - get tanked up and play some cards like a highroller. Theyve budgeted the gambling money as part of their holiday anyway.

And online you can at least have a clear conscience as you cannot know who is drunk or not.

as i said to the rest of the people at the table (while the mark was in the bog)
if i was a pro player and i depended on my poker winnings for a living ,i would take all he had and be happy about it (i mean isnt this the ideal situtation for a good player )but none at the table were pro's so we came to that "gentlemens" agreement
the floor manager said " if a certain crew were at the table there would be a telephone call made for people to come in and join)it had happened two weeks previous and that time the guy lost his shirt,pants and jocks €5k approx he said

An Gaiscíoch

No matter what you or the rest of the table decide to do, either as individuals or as a group, it's a question of moral. If this guy of his own accord has sat down with a couple of grand he feels he can lose then whether you decide to take or advantage or not is up to you. Gambling and alcohol problems are terrible and can affect families and individuals greatly. However, the majority of poker players are in it to win money, along side their love for the game. So if you do take his money of him have you done wrong ? You can argue till the ends of the earth but at the end of the day it comes down to your own morals

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Some funny stuff in this thread. Do you think a guy losing large amounts of money at a table is going to go home with all the money you save him by refusing to play him, and then give it to his family so they can eat for the month, or waste it in some other - EV gamble.

A huge % of the players playing online at night are drinking, if you play in vegas most of the table will be tanked up - poker and drinking go well together.

lol.! As a player I would never want him to leave. In fact I'd be sure to let him know the nearest banklink is just around the corner, but if I was in the cardroom manager's shoes I probably would have done the same thing seeing as the players at the table asked him to. I would be vary wary though that I might insult the man by doing so. I certainly wouldn't ask him not to play, I'd just tell him that maybe he shouldn't play so many hands and watch for a while.

There was a time when I felt bad about seeing this kind of player at the table but after a wnile you realise there is absolutely no point in trying to tell people how to spend their money. It's tgheir own business what they want to do with it. I have only ever intervened with one player who was a regular and that was when his wife started calling.

bohsman

NickyOD wrote:

There was a time when I felt bad about seeing this kind of player at the table but after a wnile you realise there is absolutely no point in trying to tell people how to spend their money. It's tgheir own business what they want to do with it.

As long as they dont work for you :rolleyes:

In the Fitz drunk punters are often asked to have a cup of coffee before being allowed to play, this is more done for the good of the game speed etc than for the players wallet

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

That's not much of an argument. It does happen online, and it does happen in Vegas, but that doesn't mean that it should happen here.

Its every persons right to be able to get pissed and play cards, its not for us, or cardroom managers to decide what a person should get up to with their own money and their own time.

strewelpeter

You are so completly wrong about it not being the cardroom managers job Hector. The problem should never have arisen for the players.

As this kind of messing appears to be the norm in the "private members clubs" I think the case for strong regulatory control of them is well made here.

bohsman

strewelpeter wrote:

You are so completly wrong about it not being the cardroom managers job Hector. The problem should never have arisen for the players.

As this kind of messing appears to be the norm in the "private members clubs" I think the case for strong regulatory control of them is well made here.

They serve alcohol in the highly regulated casinos in England and they give it away in Vegas.

Lafortezza

What if you knew that the hammered guy who hadn't a clue what he was doing at the poker table was a millionaire who didn't give a toss about the hundreds he was losing? Would you still like the card room manager to remove him for his own benefit?

Waylander

I dunno, guy gets drunk, goes to card room and loses a bundle. All of a sudden he is an alchoholic with a gambling problem? Each man is respnosible for his own actions. If it happens several times, then I suggest the club have a word in his ear, but if it is a once off, it'll be an expensive lesson, but one he probably won't forget in a hurry. To my mind, this guy is better off losing a bundle, if the deck happens to hit him in the face the first night he will think he can do it all the time, and may lose allot more in the long run.

opr

Samba wrote:

Of course there is always another argument.

Tell me what would you have done had the deck hit him in the head and he built up a 2k stack

Such wreckless play can on occasion result in what I call a Donkey Stack.

I've often been donkied and watched idiots pat each other on the back and say "well done", "you played the hand well". (having caught a gut shot with all the money in on the turn)

Do you ask the gent to leave, because he is taking all your money?

unfortunately, he may well have wandered up the road and donated another k at the Fitz.

From my past horrible donkey suckouts, im taking these guys money at every possible occasion because manny of them have robbed me in the past!

If you have issues or morals on this subject, I suggest you don't play cash games.

Because if you don't take the money. Some one else will, IMO that's the harsh bitter reality of the situation.

Completely agree.

Was sitting at a table one night when a guy blindly played a hand all in preflop for about a pot of 800.

Drunk guy turns over Kd3 other player KK 4 diamonds poor guy busts out. Drunk guys went on to hit one outers fill gut shot straight draws ....... most amazing poker table i have ever sat at. Clean almost eneryone.

So as you say i am more than happy to clean them out.

Opr

Daithio

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its every persons right to be able to get pissed and play cards, its not for us, or cardroom managers to decide what a person should get up to with their own money and their own time.

I think it's bad for the image of the game, bad for the player in question, and a hassle for all the other players at the table. Do you think it's wrong not to serve somebody in a bar when they have obviously already had too much drink, and could seriously do themselves damage if they have any more? I think this situation is very similar. For people to be able to make their own decisions they need to be of sound mind, and in a drinking culture such as ours I think it's perfectly reasonable to put a few safeguards in place to ensure that people don't make disastrous decisions such as this one when under the influence.

strewelpeter

The point is that card room or "Private Members Club" should be run in a way that provides a comfortable and safe environment for the players.

A properly run business will protect its customers.
A well run pub should stop serving customers who are drunk, a well run pharmacy should not fill multiple prescriptions, Banks should not lend people more money than they can afford to borrow. Note that I am not saying what does happen but what ought to happen and there are various degrees of regulation as to what can be allowed. But because this market is a free for all there are no rules.

As has been pointed out on this thread the moral calculation here is difficult because the point of the game is to take money from the table. If you play at all but especially online you can be certain that at least some of the table are playing with borrowed money that is beyond their means.
There though I expect (at least to have my conscience massaged) by the sites support of organisations like GamCare.

If you walk into a card room anywhere you expect that it will be run in such a way that you are protected from collusion at the tables. Well then, why shouldn't you be protected from the various levels of discomfort that are caused by having someone incapable of making rational decisions put sitting beside you? Why shouldn't the incapable person be protected from themselves?

Also, Just because Alcohol is served at a casino does not mean that drunkeness is or should be tolerated at the tables

Hectorjelly

strewelpeter wrote:

You are so completly wrong about it not being the cardroom managers job Hector. The problem should never have arisen for the players.

Its the cm job to insure the games are full and running smoothly. If a player is so drunk that he is stopping the game from continuing, or is causing offence to the other players then that is a problem. Otherwise its not his job to make sure players play to any level of competence.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

I think it's bad for the image of the game, bad for the player in question, and a hassle for all the other players at the table. Do you think it's wrong not to serve somebody in a bar when they have obviously already had too much drink, and could seriously do themselves damage if they have any more? I think this situation is very similar. For people to be able to make their own decisions they need to be of sound mind, and in a drinking culture such as ours I think it's perfectly reasonable to put a few safeguards in place to ensure that people don't make disastrous decisions such as this one when under the influence.

The analogy with a pub has been repeated several times already in this thread, and its pretty useless. If someone who has already drunk a lot continues to drink heavily they will get sick at some stage and fall unconsious. Clearly this cant be allowed to happen in a public venue for any number of reasons. A drunk playing poker may lose money but they are unlikely to wake up in the A+E ward.

myflipflops

Hectorjelly wrote:

A drunk playing poker may lose money but they are unlikely to wake up in the A+E ward.

unless the wife finds out........

MrPillowTalk

I was playing on crypto about 6 months ago, it was late and the game went to hu, the other guy was a regular player at 10/20 and is a winning player but also a nice enough chap. Anyway we played a 4k pot where I cracked his AA with QQ all in pre flop.

About five minutes later he found AA again and I found a openend straight flush draw, it all went in and he lost another buyin when I hit the river.

At this point he went on tilt after he pissed away another three buyins playing like a donkey I sat out. At the time he was really pissed off that I was quiting a winner but I felt it was for his own good, I didnt say to him Im not playing cos your giving it away I simply told him he was never going to get even for the night and should take a break. He joined another table and continued to throw money away, when he moved tables I joined it as I felt if he was that determined to keep playing I may as well grab some of the benefit.

I was playing the same player a week or so later and he thanked me for sitting out on him, I said it was ok just do the same for me if he found me tilting.

Point is that I didnt feel comfortable just taking someones money, despite them being a good player usually, however if the guy had been someone I didnt like then Im not sure if I would have said anything.

RoundTower

strewelpeter wrote:

If you walk into a card room anywhere you expect that it will be run in such a way that you are protected from collusion at the tables. Well then, why shouldn't you be protected from the various levels of discomfort that are caused by having someone incapable of making rational decisions put sitting beside you?

This is the funniest thing in the thread, if you are uncomfortable sitting beside a bad poker player go to the cinema instead of the cardroom.

Last night I went to the Fitz with a friend after having been out for a few hours and possibly having had a drink at some stage. On the way we made friends with this hammered guy who was looking for a light, I ended up climbing up to a first floor window on Pembroke Street to help him out. Once we got to the Fitz I stopped outside and told the doorman the guy was too drunk and wasn't to be allowed in. I don't know why I did this, mostly for his own good I suppose, but I think the club appreciates it too.

But on the table it's different, there was only one guy I played with last night who was obviously plastered and I didn't play with him for long, but I sat beside him and tried to get into big pots with him. It would be rude not to.

Daithio

OK, the thrust of your arguments is that people should be allowed to do what they want to do when they want to do it. To be sure you want to do something, in my opinion, involves actually wanting to do this when you are in a sane and rational state of mind. If a drunk comes into the casino and proceeds to lose a fortune which he would not have lost if he was sober, then can you really say that he wants to (edit) RISK this money? I don't think you can, so the argument that people should be allowed to do what they want doesn't apply, because this person doesn't really want to do this, they are just drunk and think that they do. To claim that safeguards don't need to be put in place to protect drunk people from themselves is ridiculous, of course they do, and I don't think that the difference between doing physical damage to yourself when drunk and financial damage is really that big, hence safeguards should be put into place to protect people from losing huge amounts of money at the poker table while drunk.

RoundTower

Daithio wrote:

hence safeguards should be put into place to protect people from losing huge amounts of money at the poker table while drunk.

People shouldn't carry round "huge amounts of money" if they don't want to go and get drunk and lose them in a poker game. If you're walking around at 3am with €5k in your pocket you can probably afford to lose it. Not giving them too much credit is the only safeguard you need.

mewso

I'm beginning to think people are making a living from these guys. Not to mention a kind of bizarre sense of morals. MrPillow sitting out on a tilter then joining the table he moves to I'm not knocking it I'm just seeing the strange side to it.
It's a difficult area because drunks rarely like being told they are not in a condition to do something. I would guess we could take money off a drunk all night online because we don't need to look them in the face and we can pretend they are some rich idiot who cares nothing for money.
Fact is people lives are probably being ruined 24/7 in this game online and off and I would be very uneasy taking money off one of these guys in the Fitz for example wheras I would probably be calling the same kind of guy a chump as I took his money online.
I think if faced with it offline you know it is happening and I would probably do what others said and advise him to stop but if hes ignoring this kind of advice I think thats all you can do.

mewso

RoundTower wrote:

People shouldn't carry round "huge amounts of money" if they don't want to go and get drunk and lose them in a poker game. If you're walking around at 3am with €5k in your pocket you can probably afford to lose it. Not giving them too much credit is the only safeguard you need.

Surely all they need is a credit card.

Daithio

musician wrote:

Surely all they need is a credit card.

Exactly.

MrPillowTalk

musician wrote:

I'm beginning to think people are making a living from these guys. Not to mention a kind of bizarre sense of morals. MrPillow sitting out on a tilter then joining the table he moves to I'm not knocking it I'm just seeing the strange side to it.
.

lol

I know what your saying but I figured I had done my best at that point, if he is that determined to give it away then.............

ocallagh

RoundTower wrote:

People shouldn't carry round "huge amounts of money" if they don't want to go and get drunk and lose them in a poker game. If you're walking around at 3am with €5k in your pocket you can probably afford to lose it. Not giving them too much credit is the only safeguard you need.

people can always get more money at 3am, you can take a couple thousand off your credit card for example