new student centre

ball ox

whats the deal on the new student centre thingy did they come to a conclusion?

Riamfada

as far as i know it passed. You will get a lovely new debating chamber and gym and pool however your fees will go up over a number of years to pay for it (15%,20%,25& afaik) so enjoy it when your a graduate cause you will get the use of it because you paid for it to be built but be sure to pay the graduate fee for using it.

sportswear

verry pissed off about it tbh. even though i don't want it i still have to pay for it........i hate democracy!

Stabshauptmann

Vote for me next year and I promise to do my best to undermine democracy within the union

humbert

So few people care enough to vote on any of the union referenda it's a bit of a farce to call it a democracy, but I like your style, you've got my vote:)

cruiserweight

Grimes wrote:

as far as i know it passed. You will get a lovely new debating chamber and gym and pool however your fees will go up over a number of years to pay for it (15%,20%,25& afaik) so enjoy it when your a graduate cause you will get the use of it because you paid for it to be built but be sure to pay the graduate fee for using it.

Allegedly these services will be available! If you have a link to any concrete plans or anything I would be very interested to see them, all I have seen is that handout/brochure that gives very little if any detail!

dajaffa

As of yet that's the best they can do. I presume now they're in the process of getting that done, outting a tender out for architects and builders etc.

Morgan Shelley

The result of the referendum was:

YES: 1,204
NO: 793
Spoilt: 80

The Union has 18,825 members, which means that the quorum was 1,883.

Since at least 2,038 members of the Union voted and a majority of those voted Yes, the Referendum passed.

Riamfada

its amazing the amount of people who are apathetic to such votes in UCD but IMO the no campaign didn't do enough to rally people against the vote.

Sorry VG but I did start a row with a yes campaigner from the back of theater P about it before and archaeology lecture. Weird having the entire class turn around to see who the trouble maker was and obviously, as usual . Twas me

panda100

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Vote for me next year and I promise to do my best to undermine democracy within the union

Can I be your campaign manager??

Seriously that vote shouldnt have been put in with the executive elections....The student centre repferendum was a serious topic that affects akl students and shouldnt have been lumped in with voting for a womens officer and Irish language officer!

If the coke refernedum was held seperatly...twice..then the student centre which is 100times more important then the coke referndum should have been given the attention it deserved. This vote should heave been held at the beginning of next year when both sides of the 'NO' and 'YES' campaign could have time to get material together so us students could make an informed decision.

And whats with the 18,000 students??There is a lot more then that studying in UCD.....

Red Alert

Mr. Shelly it was widely reported in the college tribune that you and certain others massaged the membership records of the union to make this referendum be quorate.

who exactly was included in the quoroum for this?

did any post-referendum massaging take place?

hullaballoo

Red Alert wrote:

Mr. Shelly it was widely reported in the college tribune that you and certain others massaged the membership records of the union to make this referendum be quorate.

who exactly was included in the quoroum for this?

did any post-referendum massaging take place?

Please try to refrain from accusatory statements like that. I don't want this thread to turn into a flaming match.

panda100

Red Alert wrote:

Mr. Shelly it was widely reported in the college tribune that you and certain others massaged the membership records of the union to make this referendum be quorate.

who exactly was included in the quoroum for this?

did any post-referendum massaging take place?

Massaging??What is going on in the union these days:D

Morgan Shelley

The quorum doesn’t affect the result of the referendum itself, it just dictates what effect that result will have.

The effect of reaching the quorum of 10% is just that the referendum result is a policy binding on the Union and its officers indefinitely. Had less than 10% of the membership voted it would just have been a plebiscite and Union Council would be free to authorise a campaign against the levy at some stage in the future.

The result is moved from: “a majority of members who expressed an opinion were in favour of the levy” to “it is now a binding policy that the Union is in favour of the Student Centre Levy”.

The implementation of the levy was dependent on the former, but that implementation is eased by the latter.

The S.U. Constitution only extends membership of the Union to certain categories of students:

1. Students registered for a degree or postgraduate diploma of the NUI
2. Full-time elected officers of the Union
3. Others recognised by the Independent Appeals Board

There are 21,140 students registered with UCD, but only 18,820 of them fit into those three categories. Add in the 5 sabbatical officers and the Union membership is 18,825.

Those who aren’t members are 1,414 certificate and undergraduate diploma students (including Architecture Continuing Professional Development students, for instance) and 906 occasional students (JYA, etc.). Interestingly, UCD students currently abroad on Erasmus, etc., are still members of the Union, and are entitled to vote if they happen to be in Dublin on the day of a referendum.

There's a copy of the Constitution at http://www.ucdsu.net/resources/UCDSUCON.DOC

While it's slightly out-of-date, the membership section (Article 3) is correct.

Red Alert

I wouldn't mind being on that table panda.

I wasn't accusing anybody of anything for the record. People had concerns about the matter and this was publicised in the tribune and I wanted to see what Morgan had to say about it. I'm quite happy with him as a returning officer and his ability to do his job.

If you were doing this again Morgan would you have had the referenda on a separate day? A lot of people were unaware of what the referendum actually meant (because they didn't read the ballot paper properly) - they thought a No vote was a vote against a new/improved student centre as opposed to a fee.

I'd like to see a referendum-commitee type thing which makes a double-sided sheet explaining what a no and yes vote actually means in plain english.

Would a move to internet voting or similar boost the numbers who actually go to the polls? It's a big thing when 10% decide on a fee increase for a referendum.

Or should we look at increasing the quorum to say 40% (same as a pass mark!). That would have the knock-on effect of forcing both sides to run credible campaigns, thereby more people voting and a more credible result.

Morgan Shelley

In response to Red Alert, I don't think the Tribune said any such thing.

If anyone wants a copy of the data used to ascertain the quorum, or the decision of the IAB in setting the quorum, just drop me an email at returningoffice@gmail.com

All the electoral lists and the numbers for setting the quorum come directly from the University and I presume the numbers of students doing the various courses in UCD are in the public domain, so if you don’t believe my figures, you can always do the sums yourself.

The question on the ballot paper was “Are you in favour of the proposed levy to fund the Student Centre Extension?”

Some confusion may have arisen out of the campaign materials, which used the slogans “The new student centre - vote YES” and “Vote NO against the new student centre”, but that’s really a tactical question for the 2 sides, rather than a matter for me. The Union website was very clear that the policy question was about a levy, it’s at http://www.ucdsu.net/studentcentreref.html

The setting of dates for referenda is a difficult area. You have to have the referendum within three weeks on the one hand, but you have to give two weeks' notice on the other and the primary polling date has to be a lecture day as does the preceding day. It’s difficult enough to set dates within a week-long window at the best of times, but the Student Centre referendum “window” stretched over Good Friday and Easter Monday.

The Independent Appeals Board made a decision in this area recently, but I still haven’t received a copy of that, so I can’t really say what guidance they’ve provided for the future.

dajaffa

Red Alert wrote:

I wouldn't mind being on that table panda.

If there's any massaging being done, I'l be the one to do it. We can't have amateurs doing that now can we...

Red Alert

EDIT to dajaffa: thanks hun

Cheers for clearing that up Morgan. In fact I think it may have been a long running thread here and not the tribune as I previously mentioned where the quorum issue appeared. I'll check it out later although I don't have any archived tribune copies. I'm very sorry about that, I honestly thought I had seen it there.

Given how closely electoral campaigns are regulated in the college - such as handbills, manifestos, posters etc, does any similar rules exist for referendum campaigns? Or does the issue of campaigns boil down to individuals willing to take up the cause?

Young Siward

Red Alert wrote:

Mr. Shelly it was widely reported in the college tribune that you and certain others massaged the membership records of the union to make this referendum be quorate.

The Tribune never did report that or make any insinuation to that effect....

Morgan Shelley wrote:

There are 21,140 students registered with UCD, but only 18,820 of them fit into those three categories. Add in the 5 sabbatical officers and the Union membership is 18,825.

Those who aren’t members are 1,414 certificate and undergraduate diploma students (including Architecture Continuing Professional Development students, for instance) and 906 occasional students (JYA, etc.). Interestingly, UCD students currently abroad on Erasmus, etc., are still members of the Union, and are entitled to vote if they happen to be in Dublin on the day of a referendum.

I'm no Pierce-Farrell like expert on the SU constitution but surely it would be logical if students (JYA etc or not) are allowed to cast a vote, then they be counted towards a quorum.

Vorsprung

Morgan, you got an email about a month ago on the subject of polling stations in hospitals. Could you please reply?

Vainglory

The significant thing about the quorum declaration was that foreign students on Erasmus here were discounted. This is despite the fact that they have voted and have been allowed to vote in every election and referendum we have ever had (and the Ents election this year that was decided by 5 votes).

This means that next year, Erasmus students won't be able to vote for their class rep or the International Students Officer.

hullaballoo

Why is that Vainglory?

Red Alert

when we're talking Erasmus do we mean foreign students over here or UCD'ians in foreign lands?

Vainglory

hullaballoo wrote:

Why is that Vainglory?

Why won't they be able to vote, or why were they struck off the membership lists?

Red Alert wrote:

when we're talking Erasmus do we mean foreign students over here or UCD'ians in foreign lands?

Foreign students over here.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

This means that next year, Erasmus students won't be able to vote for their class rep or the International Students Officer.

Surely since they're not in the country for their class reps term, they shouldn't vote.
I thought International Students officer was for foreigners coming to UCD not UCD students in foreign places?

EDIT: Sorry Vainglory answered already. Does that mean Eugenia Kasakova (thats a stab in the dark) would not have been able to run?

hullaballoo

Well, presumably they won't be able to vote because they were struck off the membership lists. So why were they struck off the membership lists?

Vainglory

Euginya isn't an Erasmus student..She's here for her whole degree.

Basically, the Yes campaign in the Student Centre challenged the legitimacy of Erasmus students being allowed to vote in SU elections and referenda and thus be included in the quorum calculation. By the letter of the constitution, Erasmus students here for the year are not pursuing degree courses from the NUI and so were deemed not to be members of the Students' Union.

The material effects of this will be..

1. Erasmus students next year won't be able to run for Class Rep or vote for their Class Rep.
2. Erasmus students won't be able to vote in any referenda.
3. Erasmus students could technically be turned away by any officer of the Union because they're not "members".

They were allowed to before this decision, because no-one had ever challenged their membership of the Union before.

I found all this particularly interesting because Erasmus students have always voted in elections and referenda, even though they technically shouldn't have, and if their invalid votes could be retrospectively discounted then it would likely change a good few results (especially 5 vote difference Ents results).

ferdi

Vainglory wrote:

3. Erasmus students could technically be turned away by any officer of the Union because they're not "members"

thats mad, how does this benifit the student body??

hullaballoo

Surely it would be more appropriate to change the SU constitution so that they can have an input, and cannot be turned away by an officer then to start worrying about how you can retrospectively discount their votes.

Vainglory

ferdi wrote:

thats mad, how does this benifit the student body??

It doesn't, but it benefitted the Yes campaign for the student centre because discounting the Erasmus students (and some Cert and Diploma students who also aren't technically members) meant that the referendum was quorate, and that's why we're getting a new student centre now..

hullaballoo wrote:

Surely it would be more appropriate to change the SU constitution so that they can have an input, and cannot be turned away by an officer then to start worrying about how you can retrospectively discount their votes.

Oh yeah, believe me I didn't want to discount their votes or their numbers. I was helping the No campaign out. But you have to change the constitution by referendum.

hullaballoo

I know you do, that's what I'm suggesting should take place. It seems very unfair that they aren't allowed to receive the same level of benefits from the union as other students, especially seeings as they're from a different country.

I know that in practical terms, the SU does help them out, but the constitution should reflect that.

The argument that they won't be in the college when their vote will effect it (i.e. the following year) falls down through logic. If you were to look at it that way, then none of the final year students/Irish Erasmus students etc. should be allowed to vote either.

humbert

Seems like a great move, now loads of people will have to pay a fortune for a facility they wont get the chance to use and don't need anyway and into the bargin Erasmus students can't vote or become class reps, etc, or technically I assume use the student bar, SU shops, or copy print services, from what was said about leaving the SU.

Vainglory

hullaballoo wrote:

I know you do, that's what I'm suggesting should take place. It seems very unfair that they aren't allowed to receive the same level of benefits from the union as other students, especially seeings as they're from a different country.

I know that in practical terms, the SU does help them out, but the constitution should reflect that.

The argument that they won't be in the college when their vote will effect it (i.e. the following year) falls down through logic. If you were to look at it that way, then none of the final year students/Irish Erasmus students etc. should be allowed to vote either.

Yeah, agreed. There will be a constitutional referendum sometime in the next academic year and I'm going to make sure it includes proposals to make Erasmus students members of the Union.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

Yeah, agreed. There will be a constitutional referendum sometime in the next academic year and I'm going to make sure it includes proposals to make Erasmus students members of the Union.

Do they pay for the student centre when they join?

Vainglory

Firespinner wrote:

Do they pay for the student centre when they join?

They only pay the fees connected to their home university, but would you begrudge them a year's use of our facilities while they're here?

Red Alert

Jane, what's the possibility of shooting down the new fee/student centre at next year's council?

(Are you no to the fee only or to the fee+centre project?)

singingstranger

Red Alert wrote:

Jane, what's the possibility of shooting down the new fee/student centre at next year's council?

Not that I'm one to jump in but a referendum can only be overturned by another referendum.

I'll let Jane answer for herself for the other question, RA.

Vainglory

singingstranger wrote:

Not that I'm one to jump in but a referendum can only be overturned by another referendum.

I'll let Jane answer for herself for the other question, RA.

Yeah, Gav is right..a referendum can only be overturned by another referendum. Council would have no power to reverse the result.

You could probably collect the signatures for another referendum early next term but Morgan Shelley would be the best person to ask about it.

Hmm..I'm against the fee because it doesn't take into account the ability of students to pay it. Like...students on grants don't have to pay the Reg fee, but they still have to pay the Student Centre levy no matter what their financial situation is. So this would be added to with the new fee and cause perhaps more people financial difficulty.

As for the centre itself? To be honest I don't see the need for things like a "House of Lords style debating chamber". I think it was rushed through and pretty much got passed by default. I don't think we should have to pay for something we'll never see (and the stuff about a graduate discount is a white elephant; it's obvious that there would be a graduate discount, this isn't any sort of concession to us. There is a graduate discount for the library and we didn't help pay to build that).

dajaffa

I was under the impression that graduates who had paid for it would get some special discount. Yes? No? Maybe so?

Oh, and does anybody know if the debating chamber would be used for council. I think that'd be cool

Vainglory

dajaffa wrote:

I was under the impression that graduates who had paid for it would get some special discount. Yes? No? Maybe so?

Oh, and does anybody know if the debating chamber would be used for council. I think that'd be cool

Yes, we will, but that would have happened whether we agreed to pay for it or not. Like the library (graduates can use it for cheaper, and we didn't have to pay for it).

singingstranger

dajaffa wrote:

Oh, and does anybody know if the debating chamber would be used for council. I think that'd be cool

That would be up to the Secretary of the day, if they were to book it or not. If it was me I'd be all for it. tbh I'd have booked more Astra Hall Councils this year if the idea had hit me any earlier than the busy end of the year.

pretty*monster

singingstranger wrote:

tbh I'd have booked more Astra Hall Councils this year if the idea had hit me any earlier than the busy end of the year.

Yeah, those comfy Astra Hall chairs would have beed great for councils that went on, and on (and on, and...). Might have helped everyone stay a little more chilled out.

Grimes wrote:

IMO the no campaign didn't do enough to rally people against the vote..

In fairness they (well, we, I helped a teeny bit) did their best considering extreme time constraints and the fact that a lot of us were massivly election fatigued at that stage, and had exams looming large by that stage.