Criticism of play from fellow STT player - deserved or not?

barrera

Playing a 10-player $10 STT on Ladbrokes last night, all still playing at level 2, 15/30, starting chips 1,500 each. I have about 2,400, and am on the button.

Short-stack with 420 chips approx is second to act, and goes all-in. Folds around to me, and I call it with KJ, reckoning it was a reasonable call against a desperate shorty. Blinds both fold.

He shows A9. Flop comes down KJT. Alas turn is Q and he makes his straight and takes the pot.

I type in 'Ouch!', which send short-stack off on a bit of a rant about how it wasn't 'ouch', because he was ahead pre-flop, and that if I call with **** I deserve what I get, and that I'm nothing more than a bingo player. I typed back that it was a reasonable call vs a shorty, cue more abuse from player plus some other mate of his at the table. A couple of others who reckoned I was right were similarly labelled bingo players 'who keep us paid' according to shorty.

Forgetting the intemperate way they expressed it - were they right? Should I have folded?

Hectorjelly

yes you should fold

PPP-Pit Boss

It was a fold IMHO but no need for the barrage

jacQues

barrera wrote:

Forgetting the intemperate way they expressed it - were they right? Should I have folded?

If you want to call by all means call. Even if you are holding 7 2 off-suit its fine. I do not see any need for slagging. You were ahead on the flop. I'm surprised that this happened on Ladbrokes. I find Ladbrokes a very friendly environment, whereas some other sites are full of moaners, trashers and complainers.

Smart is another matter. As last to act I'd say 'fine'. But with two people behind you its very silly. I personally don't fancy sidepot building against a better hand pre-flop. Anyone calling has to have a better hand than you and may even push pre-flop. Even its only a chance of that happening, its very risky.

jacQues

Hitman Actual

Well, he's not exactly desperately short at all (14BBs is ok), plus he's second to act so he has some sort of a hand. Definately a hand that KJ wont be ahead of, or getting a price to call. So yeah, it's a fold.

Lots of idiots online, I wouldn't worry about them. I always leave the chat turned off when I play online (which is rarely); if other players talk is tilting you, then maybe you should do the same.

Edit: In fairness, it's not the best push ever by him either. He was lucky to get a call by someone he was actually ahead of.

Ollieboy

Fold, you didnt have a massive chip advantage to be calling this and its far to early in a tourney to be taken a risks like this, there's no way you could be ahead with KJ, he could have a pp to A x with a 9 been the bottom of his hand range I hope. Is play was far from brilliant, but your call was bad.

He should have been delight with your call do, as it gave him a chance to double up, so he should have thank you instead of abusing you.

Just out of interest, did you tilt after this hand?

Hectorjelly

This is a simple maths question, basically you need to call X amount, to win X*2 and the blinds. If you think about that youll see that when the blinds are very small, (and the all in is relatively big as in this case) then your hand needs to win about 50% of the time to make calling profitable. As the blinds get bigger (or there is other dead money in the pot) the % time you need to win becomes lower. If the amount in the pot is equal to the amount you have to call (eg $100 pot and $100 bet) then you need to win the hand 33% of the time ($100 is 1/3 of the total pot size if you call).

So to see if you should call you need to find out what % of the time KJ wins agaisnt the range of hands you feel the othe rplayer would push with. Theres a program here which will do just that: http://www.pokerstove.com/

Basically KJo performs badly against any normal players hand range. Unless he is pushing nearly 1 hand in 3 you will win the pot less than 48% of the time, and so you lose chips by making this call. Coupled with this is the fact that if someone has a better hand behind you its probably going to cost you some more.

If you understand and utiilise what I just wrote you will have a better understanding of poker than 90% of the people you play against.

Drakar

Another tool for analysing these types of situations is http://www.sitngo-analyzer.com/. At $79 though it's a tad more expensive than free, but it does provide more functionality.

Linford

barrera wrote:

Playing a 10-player $10 STT on Ladbrokes last night, all still playing at level 2, 15/30, starting chips 1,500 each. I have about 2,400, and am on the button.

Short-stack with 420 chips approx is second to act, and goes all-in. Folds around to me, and I call it with KJ, reckoning it was a reasonable call against a desperate shorty. Blinds both fold.

He shows A9. Flop comes down KJT. Alas turn is Q and he makes his straight and takes the pot.

I type in 'Ouch!', which send short-stack off on a bit of a rant about how it wasn't 'ouch', because he was ahead pre-flop, and that if I call with **** I deserve what I get, and that I'm nothing more than a bingo player. I typed back that it was a reasonable call vs a shorty, cue more abuse from player plus some other mate of his at the table. A couple of others who reckoned I was right were similarly labelled bingo players 'who keep us paid' according to shorty.

Forgetting the intemperate way they expressed it - were they right? Should I have folded?

I read this guy "thelodger on ladbrokes" blog the odd time. He generally moans about bad beats and is not the nicest guy in the world but I think you must have made an impression on him as he mentions this hand in his latest entry : http://thelodgeruk.blogspot.com/2006/05/hackers-attack.html

PPP-Pit Boss

Jesus what a moany-hole

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

Fold, you didnt have a massive chip advantage to be calling this and its far to early in a tourney to be taken a risks like this,

No, you should fold because you are behind his range and not getting good pot odds.

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote:

No, you should fold because you are behind his range and not getting good pot odds.

Yes, as I already said, your not ahead, so fold. Didn't have to mention pot odds, because the blinds were so small and it was calling a all-in. So the odds were never going to be possible in this hand to call if your behind.

jhegarty

I find on STT short staked played will wait for a rag ace (or pocker pair) for their all in... so I was not suprised you where behind before the flop...

Goodluck2me

Linford wrote:

I read this guy "thelodger on ladbrokes" blog the odd time. He generally moans about bad beats and is not the nicest guy in the world but I think you must have made an impression on him as he mentions this hand in his latest entry : http://thelodgeruk.blogspot.com/2006/05/hackers-attack.html

thats hilarious..if only all our bad beats were rewarded with such publicity!