Gardai Get Political

civdef

Good or bad thing for democracy?

One might make the case that the time to oppose this was before the Oireachtas had actually passed the legislation..

GRA to target election over Reserve

09 May 2006 14:20
The Garda Representative Association is to target marginal constituencies and Government deputies with slim majorities as part of its campaign against the Garda Reserve.

The newly-elected President of the Association, John Egan, said that gardaí and Government were aware where these constituencies were.

But he cited Laois/Offaly, Longford/Westmeath, Galway West and Tipperary North where the garda college is based.


He said the Government had one year to abandon the proposal for a reserve and deliver the long promised extra resources for gardaí.

Mr Egan said 'if they do not, we will be waiting in the long grass'. The GRA had a strong voting power and it was not happy with the reserve, he added.

zuma

Very bad for Democracy!!!

If the Defense Forces are not allowed to meddle with Politics then I believe the same law should be enforced on the Gardai!!!

Its a disgrace!

mike65

Gardai get stupid more like, they want to be credible defenders of the peace well this course of action is a good way to blow that for once and for all.

If by some fluke one of them gets elected then what? Threaten the government with a dial vote? If none of them get within an asses roar of winning a seat they'll just look dumb(er).

Mike.

Widgeon

I believe that at this point in time the GRA is failing its members. While I believe that the threat of political activism will have little effect, the fact that it has been promised (threatened) is sad.
As a body An Garda Siochana should be apolitical. Sadly over the years it has not been. The GRA has been political for a number of years - it has called for tougher laws and more powers while not using the powers they have in any effective way, they have called for longer jail sentences also. These two subjects are the perogative of politicians.

I do believe that the idea of a Garda Reserve Force is a good one. There are many genuine people out there who care for their communities and are willing to serve their communities in this particular way. We should applaud these people.

At present I believe that the GRA has turned into a whinging obstructionist organisation

zuma

After listening to the Last Word on Today FM I think they are coming dangerously close to breaking some law introduced in the 1930's to stop the Army/Police interfereing in politics!

The Army in Turkey have a strong say in the politics of that country and its far from a stable democracy!

For the Gardai to threaten such actions here is VERY SERIOUS and should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

There is already a clear separation of the executive/judicial powers in ireland which is why the government cant easily fire a judge.
As a force under the judicary the Gardai have NO RIGHT to tamper with the executive.

As you can see Im very angry!

Dirk Gently

zuma wrote:

For the Gardai to threaten such actions here is VERY SERIOUS and should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

There is already a clear separation of the executive/judicial powers in ireland which is why the government cant easily fire a judge.
As a force under the judicary the Gardai have NO RIGHT to tamper with the executive.

As you can see Im very angry!

hey Zuma I can see why you like the political / judicial powers the way they are. You keep getting away with stuff. http://www.guardian.co.uk/southafrica/story/0,,1770514,00.html

civdef

I'm not sure how the GRA reckons they'll become a political force. Every party in the Dail supports the Garda reserve, with the exception of SF (I think some gardai may still have reservations certain SF policies), so who are they planning on casting their electoral weight (dispersed around the country as it is) behind?

DublinWriter

Considering how the Government use the guards as a political football, this behaviour is hardly surprising.

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

I think the reservest idea is good on the whole, but not when the current full timers aren't even issued with anti-stab jackets, pepper spray, and an encrypted digital radio system.

You can only push a group of people so far before the straw breaks.

At least in the UK, reservists have the power of arrest and have uniforms that aren't visually different from their full-time counterparts.

Not so with the mad-mullahs plan. He was bitch-slapped over cafè-licencening, how he wants to throw his weight around.

The government need to get back down to 'brass-tacks' spending on basic infrastructure in this country (including the health service), and get away from the the high-profile Ministerial-bauble PR-driven photo-shoot projects, such as e-voting and the recent introduction of €80K dual-fuel Lexus cars as ministerial vehicles.

rmacm

This is probably a bad thing. There's something about the people who enforce the law having a part in making said law that doesn't sit well with me and probably many other people. Does the same law that prevents the army from meddling in politics stop the Gardai from doing the same? It would appear not from the above but then again I'm not familiar with the law in this area.

Cheers
Rory

zuma

DublinWriter wrote:

Considering how the Government use the guards as a political football, this behaviour is hardly surprising.

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

I think the reservest idea is good on the whole, but not when the current full timers aren't even issued with anti-stab jackets, pepper spray, and an encrypted digital radio system.

You can only push a group of people so far before the straw breaks.

At least in the UK, reservists have the power of arrest and have uniforms that aren't visually different from their full-time counterparts.

Not so with the mad-mullahs plan. He was bitch-slapped over cafè-licencening, how he wants to throw his weight around.

The government need to get back down to 'brass-tacks' spending on basic infrastructure in this country (including the health service), and get away from the the high-profile Ministerial-bauble PR-driven photo-shoot projects, such as e-voting and the recent introduction of €80K dual-fuel Lexus cars as ministerial vehicles.

Oh come on, you can hardly say that the socities in NI and Ireland are the same!

Those 17,000 PSNI must countrol a society which is far more volatile than our own and frequently require the assistance of another 15,000 soldiers!!!

At 5:18:35 today in the last word at:
When playing listen from 18:35.
http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/952006-17.wmv

In terms of police per head of population we are 4th ranked in Europe ahead of everyone else (UK/France/Germany...etc) except Italy, Portugal and Belgium who have more police per head of population than us.....under resourced?...not in terms of manpower Im afraid!

Those figures are from the UN and UK Home Office.

zuma

rmacm wrote:

This is probably a bad thing. There's something about the people who enforce the law having a part in making said law that doesn't sit well with me and probably many other people. Does the same law that prevents the army from meddling in politics stop the Gardai from doing the same? It would appear not from the above but then again I'm not familiar with the law in this area.

Cheers
Rory

Im pretty sure they must adhere to the same law....any solicitors here?

Scary I know!

New_Departure06

Are they just worried about losing their overtime?

If the Gardai go on strike then the Army must be used to perform policing duties.

zuma

New_Departure06 wrote:

Are they just worried about losing their overtime?

If the Gardai go on strike then the Army must be used to perform policing duties.

I think they are worried that they wont be able to assimilate these Reserves into the Gardai regime!
By that I mean....when they spend the 2 years being trained they are though certain unwritten "rules".....such "rules" wont already be in the heads of these reserves so they are probable scared that the Reserves will be used as rats for the Superintendents to keep the full timers in check.

Their overtime and extra curricular activites will then be sharply curtailed!

A good comparison would be the Army...PDF and FCA/RDF.
The PDF almost totally ignore the Reserves as they dont think highly of them and are wary of them as well.
The exact same situation will occur when the police reserves begin their duties.

Ronin00074

I think that a Reserve Garda Force may be needed at some stage, in a period of Emergency like how the Taca Siochana was used, but I don't think that now is the right time to introduce a Reserve. Gardai that work day in and day out are woefully under resourced and under equipped. Until the Government resource the Gardai properly I don't see any point in spending millions to bring in a person with less training than a student Garda to do the job of a full time Guard for a few hours a week.

Manic Moran

What's the difference between taking a public position on something, and of being political? I'm sure we've all seen RTE reports saying "The GRA has released a statement describing its opposition to the proposed reserve." Is that wrong? As long as they're not expressing support for any particular candidate, and remaining focused solely on police-related policies, is there a problem?

A related situation is happening over here in the San Francisco area: A recent referendum was held to ban residents from owning handguns. The police officers' association made its views on the issue public. (They were against). Once the ban was approved, the police association joined in as a party to the court case to get it overturned: Police taking an involvement in a political decision, but at no point through the ballot box. Then again, what would happen if at the next meeting, one officer was to stand up and say "I will never vote for Chris Daly again!" (Followed by 'hear-hears'). Is this a political statement?

What is the written prohibition on Gardai and politics anyway? Other than, presumably, "no serving Garda may run for political office." Which, from my reading of the Examiner, is exactly what they're proposing. (Retired Gardai)

NTM

Sparks

Interesting post in this thread on the Gardai's perspective on the Reserve force proposal.
Not sure I'd agree with their approach to protesting this though. It has some extremely uncomfortable overtones to it. But then, so does the manner in which this administration legislates - any court case taken against it (for example, over bin taxes) are then legislated over in a rather cynical and almost petulent manner.

RossMahon

They are wortless! we need a proper police force!

RossMahon

We need proper order and law

New_Departure06

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

Actually the PSNI is around 7,000 these days after the cuts under Patten.

ArphaRima

I'm not particularly enamoured with the idea of a semi-trained, semi-professional police force.
I am, however, extremely concerned with the influence the gardai believe they have the right to wield in politics. This should be stamped on immediately. No state body, especially those sworn to serve the state, and defend it, should ever meddle in its administration. Even as a critic. They are charged with protecting the people, and the people chose this government.

Ex-gardai, like ex-servicemen have every right to serve in government. They cannot however influence garda action(especially voting direction) through their representative organisation. I would construe that as corruption of the highest order, and would support every move to legislate against it.

Sparks

I am, however, extremely concerned with the influence the gardai believe they have the right to wield in politics.

It sits uneasily - but as they're the ones who have the most personally at stake in this, denying them representation would be immoral, even if it's not actually unconstitutional.

On a side note your post raises; people may choose the government - but they do not choose it's policies, and should those policies be not in the best interests of the people, whom should the Gardai or any other state group with a similar oath protect?

civdef

It seems wiser heads have prevailed in the GRA. In my opinion this was an important move for the organisation to make, which has prevented serious difficulties.

Stone overrules Egan's statement

10 May 2006 12:09
The General Secretary of the Garda Representative Association, PJ Stone has overruled his association's newly elected president, John Egan.

Mr Stone has ruled out targeting politicians or marginal constituencies as part of its campaign against the proposed Garda Reserve.

Mr Stone said gardaí wanted to be involved in policing, not politics, and he said if the impression was given otherwise he was very sorry.

Referring to the comments by John Egan yesterday, Mr Stone said sometimes people go further than they should and make mistakes and that was regrettable.

He said he hoped the original statement would not damage the association. However, he insisted that the GRA was still totally opposed to the Garda Reserve and would not cooperate with it.

mike65

I did'nt spot John Egan was newly elected, I think that may explain alot.

Mike.

Dirk Gently

U-turn.

General secretary over rules president of GRA and apologises for any confusion caused. They say they will not get political and will stay out of politics. They adopted a non-coroporation policy with the new reserves.

ArphaRima

people may choose the government - but they do not choose it's policies, and should those policies be not in the best interests of the people, whom should the Gardai or any other state group with a similar oath protect?

My argument would be that it is not the gardais right to determine the direction a government takes. This issue aside, which is clearly an industrial pay/working conditions dispute, the gardai have absolutely no right to act as a pressure group. They are a group of specialists in the policing field, that the government may call upon for opinion or support, but they may never act unilaterally against the government.
Possible exceptions include popular uprisings against unconstitutional governments. However I believe the army would be far more influential there.

The reservist scheme I believe is being used as a cheap number fixing scam by the government. They can raise thousands of cheap un-pensioned (and therefore non-contributory to the gardais scheme) semi-volunteers, with little legal training, low hours worked, and only political statistics to show for it. The government will be able to show massive apparent dividends. Peak time police presence will seem huge (sat nights), overtime bills will dive, pension pressures stabilise, wage demands are undercut (sufficient supply of labour), and all the while their reliability will be rather poor in the eyes of a court.
I'm not convinced just yet.

civdef

and all the while their reliability will be rather poor in the eyes of a court.

I'm skeptical about this one. Special constables in the UK testify in court regularly with no more difficulty than regular officers. The key to this is proper training, and oversight/backup of regular officers to assist the part-timers (which of course looks like will be missing here).They types of offences reservists will be dealing with are going to be of the straightforward type.

Sparks

fluffer wrote:

My argument would be that it is not the gardais right to determine the direction a government takes.

I'd agree with that; but not with the notion that the government has a right to dictate policy to those the policy affects without consultation, which seems to be exactly what's happening here.

This issue aside, which is clearly an industrial pay/working conditions dispute

In fairness to the gardai, that's not clearly the case at all. Working conditions would have to factor into it, but the main concern seems to be the increase in personal risk and workload to the gardai purely caused by being required to work with (presumably) well-meaning but undertrained and inexperienced amateurs.

the gardai have absolutely no right to act as a pressure group. They are a group of specialists in the policing field, that the government may call upon for opinion or support, but they may never act unilaterally against the government.

Actually, since being given the vote in the 1960s, the gardai may do exactly that as individuals - and that seems to be precisely their plan, according to statements from the Garda who held the post of GRA president before Egan.

And do you not feel it should be encumbent, if not mandatory, for the government (who are not experts in policing) to consult the experts in the field (which would be the gardai) before determining policy?

mickcarroll10

DublinWriter wrote:

Considering how the Government use the guards as a political football, this behaviour is hardly surprising.

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

Are you seriously trying to compare policing levels with the north,yer are having a laugh.

Em 20 years of troubles might be a reason for policing levels

ISAW

zuma wrote:

A good comparison would be the Army...PDF and FCA/RDF.
The PDF almost totally ignore the Reserves as they dont think highly of them and are wary of them as well.
The exact same situation will occur when the police reserves begin their duties.

Nope becaues the FCA or reserves serve on their own. i served eleven years the only time I served with regular army on a day to day basis was when I did border duty. I did border patrols and guard duties and got on fine with my regular counterparts. the reserves will have to do duties the Gardai do. It isnt good enough to split them off to do mundane jobs the Gardai dont like. It will create a "black in the jacks" senario. I don't approve of some secition of society been looked upon as doing the dirty mundane and low paid jobs. But the Gardai don't want yellow pack gardai either.

The political push isnt with the GRA it is with AGSI. Who will supervise all these reserves? ther is a need for extra sargeants and Inspectors. Most bright can get to Inspector rank without politics if they work hard and keep their bib clean. After Inspector politics comes into the picture. Anyway, they will need more of the senoir ranks. The Gardai will want promotions. so the political answer in my opinion is to promote the worst agitators in any district.

ISAW

zuma wrote:

After listening to the Last Word on Today FM I think they are coming dangerously close to breaking some law introduced in the 1930's to stop the Army/Police interfereing in politics!

the Last word was wrong in my opinion. I think it was the 1923 electoral Act but some people e.g Judges, comptroller and auditor general etc. are constitutionally banned.
I am not certain but check it out on gov.ie and follow the autourney general link to the Irish Statute book. Im fairly sure im right.
****e Ill check!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/
Here is section 57. Section 51 says the same for Dail Eireann:

57.—(1) Every citizen of Saorstát Eireann without distinction of sex who is of the age of 35 years or upwards and is not subject to any of the disqualifications mentioned in this section shall be eligible to be elected and (subject to taking the oath prescribed by the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann) to sit as a member of the Seanad.

(2) Each of the following persons shall be disqualified from being elected or sitting as a member of the Seanad, that is to say:—

( a ) a person who is undergoing a sentence of imprisonment with hard labour for any period exceeding six months, or of penal servitude for any term imposed by a court of competent jurisdiction in Saorstát Eireann;

( b ) an imbecile and any person of unsound mind;

( c ) an undischarged bankrupt under an adjudication by a court of competent jurisdiction in Saorstát Eireann;

( d ) a person who is by the law for the time being in force in Saorstát Eireann in relation to corrupt practices and other offences at elections incapacitated from being a member of the Seanad by reason of his having been found guilty by a court of competent jurisdiction in Saorstát Eireann of some such practice or offence:

Provided always that the disqualification effected by this Sub-Section on account of a sentence of imprisonment or penal servitude shall not, in the case of a person who is a member of the Seanad at the date of such disqualification take effect until the expiration of thirty days from the date of the sentence, or in the event of an appeal, from the date of the order confirming such sentence.

(3) A person shall be incapable of being elected or sitting as a member of Seanad Eireann who is

( a ) member of the defence force of Saorstát Eireann on full pay;

( b ) a member of any police force in Saorstát Eireann on full pay;

( c ) a person either temporarily or permanently in the Civil Service of Saorstát Eireann unless he is by the terms of his employment expressly permitted to be a member of Seanad Eireann.

(4) If any person who has been duly elected a member of the Seanad should while he is so a member become subject to any of the disqualifications mentioned in this section he shall thereupon cease to be a member of the Seanad

There is already a clear separation of the executive/judicial powers in ireland which is why the government cant easily fire a judge.
As a force under the judicary the Gardai have NO RIGHT to tamper with the executive.
As you can see Im very angry!

And rightly so! If it wasnt illegal it should be made so by seperation of powers. But when the GRA was set up six members had to go on the run. I knew two of them. You would never believe where they were hiding out! Anyway the point is that PDFORA GRA etc. need to be allowed exist as well.

We used to be closer to a police state then we are now. some people say Dev put the President into the constitution as chief of staff to prevent the possibility of a coup. Could you imagine Mary Mac or robinson heading up a military coup?

the_syco

All else has failed, it would seem. I'd say they don't see why civilians should just be allowed to join, given power, and not have had to do 4 years of training to get to that point. The Gardai will now have to babysit them half the time. And what happens when they do something wrong? And get sued? Will we, the tax payer, be left to foot the bill?

In the FCA, you're trained a bit, and the training keeps going, and even then, you're not just lumped with the Defense Forces.

From what it sounds like, the Gardai Reserves will get a bit of training, and then get lumped with the Gardai.


I wonder were the Gardai asked if they'd mind. Or if the politicians decided that it'd win a few votes. Becasue, to me, it sounds like the politicans are intervening in what the Gardai do.

DublinWriter

Comparing the FCA to the guards is like comparing apples and oranges.

The FCA doesn’t see much active service, aren't deployed on UN peacekeeping duties, and unlike the guards, don't go into battle every day.

I spoke to a friend of mine who is an Officer in the army shortly after the whole Willie O'Dea gun pointing episode. I asked him why any of the senior Officers didn't tell him to hold his horses. His exact words to be where of the effect 'if the Minister wants to pull his trousers down on the parade ground and moon the press, that's his right'.

In our democratic society, we have this strange paradox where the Minister sits at the top of a chain of command. The Minister tells the Commissioner what do to, the Commissioner tells the Deputy Commissioners what to do, the Deputy Commissioners tell the Assistant Commissioners what do to and it all falls down on the shoulders of the humble mule in the field.

If McDowell turned around in the morning and told Noel Conroy that standard garda male uniforms would incorporate a pink tutu, then Noel Conroy would be legally obliged to carry out the Minister's instruction.

On the ground, you could expect mutiny, and I think that's what we're in for over the reservists.

Whatever about the GRA not supporting it, if the AGSI are agin it, then it won’t happen.

However McDowell continues to behave like Judge Dredd, constantly stating "I am the law!" and pointing to his electoral mandate as proof.

The core of the question is that in this country Ministers can, and frequently do, make bad legislation and bad decisions, yet there is no effective process of checks-and-balances to hold them into account.

Having an electoral mandate and a ministership does not automatically mean 'papal infallibility'.

Hotblack Desiato

Sparks wrote:

I'd agree with that; but not with the notion that the government has a right to dictate policy to those the policy affects without consultation, which seems to be exactly what's happening here.

That's exactly what the government is doing to civil and public servants over decentralisation.
At least the Garda reserve won't waste a billion euro for nothing.

DublinWriter

ninja900 wrote:

At least the Garda reserve won't waste a billion euro for nothing.

Really? Just wait till the claims cases start rolling in.

Dark_lord_ire

I am a member and i wont say to much otherthen the GRA made a bad call they have acknowledged that fact. Basically gardai are annoyed at this reserve as we feel point one that any garda that you me that being me or anyone else is the as normal as the nest man, we get 2 years training over a year and a bit before you making an arrest. I joined 5 yrs ago and am still learning, no matter what people think its not a job you can walk into and do it is a hard job. No only putting yourself on the front line for the common good but also the paper involved with that. No part timer can do this and people respect the gardai for being professional with dealing with incidents. I have heard all the bad press about the force some deseved some not. But all gardai ask is that we get resourced, by this desent cars that can take a hard impact, good communication system and personal protective gear i.e. stab vests in the city and uniforms thats dont fall apart.

Sorry people it touching on many points with little detail but thats only because i could write a page on each

Unpossible

This may be a tad off topic (and probably a stupid idea but...), somebody in a previous post said that the reserve members would have less training than a student Garda. So why can we not have student gardai out on the street for a few hours a week? It could be put down as some kind of work expirence, they get to go out into the field with one or two "proper" garda/i and see how things are done.
It doesnt seem unreasonable to me, college students have to do 6+ months of work before graduating & my friend who is training to be a doctor often has to work in the local hospital.
We also had the student gardai out on the "Blue Flu" day if any of ye remember

zuma

I think the student Gardai already do work experience before becoming qualified.

They have blue marks where their rank should be....I think....
The last time I saw them "working" in a group was at a concert.

the_syco

The student Gardai need to work for at least 6 months (maybe more) on the street, before doing more college, and only then do they get the powers to arrest people. Yeah. For 6 months they have to walk around, without being able to arrest people.

JoeB-

The garda reserve is a joke... I fully support the gardai in not working with them...

The guards or anyone else shouldn't follow directions from the minister without question, that would be stupid, think of the Nazi's and the 'I was just following orders'...

A reserve force of untrained civilians, probably not having undergone pyschological profiling to determine suitabilitity would be a disaster... a cheap number boosting stunt for the government. Human rights abuses would increase, I believe anyone could question the motivation of anyone working for free in a garda reserve force, are they doing it so that they feel important and have power over people (which they will abuse)??? Will they take minor transgressions personnally and 'throw the book' at people? And will they work in their own local areas? with people they know?

The Garda can oppose the reserves on the grounds that it would diminish the credibility and the effectiveness of the Garda to such an extent that to allow the reserves would be akin to destroying the force... I hope they do this and say 'NO' to media grabbing, soundbite polititions.
The garda need modern equipment like encrypted radios and whatever else... not stupid government policies.

ISAW

DublinWriter wrote:

The FCA doesn’t see much active service,

Increasingly they are doing more. By the way the FCA dont exist anymore. They are called "reserves"

aren't deployed on UN peacekeeping duties, and unlike the guards, don't go into battle every day.

Nor do the army. the "reserves" might be on UN duties in the near future. and how is the regualr army so "active"?

In our democratic society, we have this strange paradox where the Minister sits at the top of a chain of command.

Actually constitutionally the President sits at the top of the Defence Forces. the Minister sets policy.

The Minister tells the Commissioner what do to, the Commissioner tells the Deputy Commissioners what to do, the Deputy Commissioners tell the Assistant Commissioners what do to and it all falls down on the shoulders of the humble mule in the field.

not quite right. The Minister tells people what should be done but not {b]how[/b] to do it. the minister steers the boat but the admin row it. [pun intended] That is why from time to time the Minister says he will not comment because it is "an operational matter". It is called "seperation of powers" and it is a constitutional impreative.

If McDowell turned around in the morning and told Noel Conroy that standard garda male uniforms would incorporate a pink tutu, then Noel Conroy would be legally obliged to carry out the Minister's instruction.

correct. But not if it affected operational matters. the commissioner could say that a tutu
is b a restrictive garment which does not allow gardai to perform their functions or even that the image of tutu wearing Gardai will affect performance and working conditions. As such the Ministers wishes could be denied.

On the ground, you could expect mutiny, and I think that's what we're in for over the reservists.

during the "emergency" 2000 temporary part-time reservists were drafted in. The Gardai lost a pay increase because of it. They kept them and one of them became a commissioner afterwards.

Whatever about the GRA not supporting it, if the AGSI are agin it, then it won’t happen.

I dont know bout that but have you noticed the loud cries from AGSI condeming the policy??? see what I mean?

However McDowell continues to behave like Judge Dredd, constantly stating "I am the law!" and pointing to his electoral mandate as proof.

He was not elected minister. He was appointed! Nor could he claim "I AM the law" ! He could claim "I PROPOSE the law" Or "I LAY BILLS which become law". The legal system goes much further than making laws and Mc dowell knows this all too well.

The core of the question is that in this country Ministers can, and frequently do, make bad legislation and bad decisions, yet there is no effective process of checks-and-balances to hold them into account.

Frequently? How many acts went through the Oireachtas last year? the last five years? How many of then were flawed? and there IS an effective process to test new legislation. It isnt only the minister who should be held to account. the minister is not a legal expert (well int this case he IS actually but I mean in general) there are AGs State solicitors etc.

Having an electoral mandate and a ministership does not automatically mean 'papal infallibility'.

No it doesnt! Which is why we have an Oireachtas, Tribunals, courts, social bodies etc.

ISAW

JoeBallantine wrote:

The garda reserve is a joke... I fully support the gardai in not working with them...

The guards or anyone else shouldn't follow directions from the minister without question, that would be stupid, think of the Nazi's and the 'I was just following orders'...

it isnt a question of that! It is a question of division of powers. the policy making and implementation are seperate issues. It is not for the Gardai to question the policy.

A reserve force of untrained civilians, probably not having undergone pyschological profiling to determine suitabilitity would be a disaster... a cheap number boosting stunt for the government.

It was done in 1939 with I think two weeks traiining . some of them made commissioner afterwards.

Human rights abuses would increase, I believe anyone could question the motivation of anyone working for free in a garda reserve force, are they doing it so that they feel important and have power over people (which they will abuse)??? Will they take minor transgressions personnally and 'throw the book' at people? And will they work in their own local areas? with people they know?

Whay dont you ask the same of military reservists? they don't seem to be a threat do they?

The Garda can oppose the reserves on the grounds that it would diminish the credibility and the effectiveness of the Garda to such an extent that to allow the reserves would be akin to destroying the force... I hope they do this and say 'NO' to media grabbing, soundbite polititions.

No they cant! It isnt up to Gardai to determine for themselves what credibility is. They could oppose it if it subatantially changed their working conditions. they could oppose it if it was not resourced to such an extent as to make it a hinderance and consequently undermining their duty. Resourcing will require maybe one to two hundred sargeants and several dozen inspectors. Watch this space.

The garda need modern equipment like encrypted radios and whatever else... not stupid government policies.

True. They have the radios by the way. But what they really need is integrity and the trust of the people.

Victor

ISAW wrote:

during the "emergency" 2000 temporary part-time reservists were drafted in. The Gardai lost a pay increase because of it. They kept them and one of them became a commissioner afterwards.

I thought it was much higher, reaching nearly 100,000 (and another 100,000 in the Local Defence Force).

Unpossible

Yeah. For 6 months they have to walk around, without being able to arrest people.

So if we had the final year (or else the second last year) students out on the beat every week for a few hours, with the power to arrest people then we wouldnt really need a reserve force would we?

It seems like a better solution to me..... maybe Im just not seeing the bigger picture/problem

zuma

Victor wrote:

I thought it was much higher, reaching nearly 100,000 (and another 100,000 in the Local Defence Force).

Irish Army:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_army wrote:

However, the Irish Army was greatly expanded (from about 10,000 men up to 40,000 or so, with more recrutied to reserve forces) for the duration of the War to ward off potential invasions from either the Axis or Allied powers (both of whom drew up contingency plans to invade Ireland).

I have no idea about the size of the police force but I guess it shouldnt be more than the Army.

Victor

Local forces were "By August 1940 the strength had risen to 148,306" which included a police and army element.

http://www.army.ie/reserves/fca_history.htm

Widgeon

Now that the GRA blunder about becoming involved in politics make the politicians think twice about becoming involved in Garda affairs? I'm talking about individual politicians interfering with the day to day running of the Gardai and trying to influence their decisions.
I exclude of course the accountability of An Garda Siochana to the Minister and Government.

Cork

It was a massive blunder by the GRA.

The Minister will now introduce the reserves.

McDowell will also have to modernise the force after he recieves the full morris report.

Who will join the Garda reserves - will it be community alert people?

It is volentary so It may encourage people to volenteer.

Widgeon

I don't think it will be all community alert people. It is voluntary and there will be plenty of volunteers.
There is anxiety that the reserve will be full of unsuitable people. There are a large number of unsuitable people in the Guards at present.
The original Garda Siochana members had very little training and inded up to quite recently training involved about three months training for full time Gardai.
There needs to be a fundamental review of the way they work. I can detect a history of cover up over the yerars in a number of different areas. There has always been an element of denial of anything wrong. It would be interesting to look at some high profile cases that went wrong and see what happened top those involved. I have an idea that some of them were promoted, perpetuating the denial and giving the wrong message.

Victor

Many police forces operate training courses of 3-6 months for ordinary "bobby on the street" positions.

Widgeon

It will be interesting to see what the lady from Boston will do or be allowed to do in her new post.