is your life pre-decided?

The Bollox

this topic MUST have been posted a few times before, but what the hell, here we go again. Do you believe in fate, do you believe you are a mere actor perfoming on some stage, or do you believe that every decision you make is completly independant?

Dave!

I have free will. Can't really prove it either way, though, can we? But free will makes more sense to me, as fate generally implies some sort of deity exists, and I don't buy that I'm afraid.

aidan_walsh

Completely independant of what?

melekalikimaka

somebody watched donnie darko on tv3 :rolleyes:

The Bollox

Adian_Walsh wrote:

Completely independant of what?

independant of any external force. i.e. you are your own man, like if you come to a fork in your life it was not predecided that you took either way

melekalikimaka wrote:

somebody watched donnie darko on tv3 :rolleyes:

I have the Directors cut on DVD, but it wasn't that, it was Red Dwarf actually

melekalikimaka

LoL

well in realion to it, I believe our lives are not pre determined, if for any other reason than i would become very depressed at the thought of 60 or so years of illusionary choice. to what extend do you mean pre determined?

MrJoeSoap

I don't think it is at all, we all have a free choice over our actions and movements.

I'm often confused by the phrases "A twist of fate" and "Tempting fate".

Surely they make absolutely no sense?

The Bollox

well that before you were born some 'greater being' decided what cource you would take in your life, after that you could debate yourself as to exactly how detailed it would be. for instance a simple pre determination would be what career you persue, and who your life partner will be, a more specialised one would be exactly what will be your reply to this, or even if you will post one. It makes you think.

it is unfortunatly very hard to voice exactly what I mean. like to MrJoeSoap, you feel like you have free choice over what you do, but what if that choice you made was already pre determined, no matter how rash ot unexpected it seems to you

aidan_walsh

Marts wrote:

independant of any external force. i.e. you are your own man, like if you come to a fork in your life it was not predecided that you took either way

So circumstance is an independant external force that plays no part in your life?

monkeyfudge

Well there is the posibility that the human brain is hardwired and that all the choices you have made in your life were the only ones that you were actually capable of making.

We could just be suffering under the illusion of free-will.

MrJoeSoap

Marts wrote:

well that before you were born some 'greater being' decided what cource you would take in your life, after that you could debate yourself as to exactly how detailed it would be. for instance a simple pre determination would be what career you persue, and who your life partner will be, a more specialised one would be exactly what will be your reply to this, or even if you will post one. It makes you think.

it is unfortunatly very hard to voice exactly what I mean. like to MrJoeSoap, you feel like you have free choice over what you do, but what if that choice you made was already pre determined, no matter how rash ot unexpected it seems to you

Well then I suppose it all comes down to the Science vs Religion debate, and I'm sided very strongly with the former of the two.

melekalikimaka

well i guess many people whom are unhappy with their life, ie in a rut(no saying anyone on here is, this just popped in my head), they would tend to used re determination as a scape goat for themselves, i just a form of self pity.certain actions we take CAn pre determine future events for many years ahead of out lives, but I'm going off a bit here, the whole'big plan from the man in the sky' idea is what you on about is it?

pclancy

I dont see how any outside force is controlling me but someday I do expect to be asked do I want a red or a blue pill and a lot of questions will be answered.

The Bollox

I did not want this to turn to a religious debate, just because there are so many among us with their own religious beliefs and obviously there are a lot of athiests who do not believe in any 'greater beings' (I am doing my best not to p*ss anyone off, but I have got a few on-board atm) all I am asking is that anyone interested think outside the box for a minute

Only by the actions I have previously taken.

monkeyfudge

Marts wrote:

well that before you were born some 'greater being' decided what cource you would take in your life,

It could just as easily be randomly determined by your DNA.

Your DNA determines what you look like, why not also how you behave?

melekalikimaka

pclancy wrote:

I dont see how any outside force is controlling me but someday I do expect to be asked do I want a red or a blue pill and a lot of questions will be answered.

you know what you've started now... boardies are gonna run to their dvd cabinets to play that movie for quotes to check in here.


its kinda creepy cos theres an agent smith on here...:eek:

aidan_walsh

bluewolf wrote:

Only by the actions I have previously taken.

Consider also the actions of others.

The Bollox

monkeyfudge wrote:

It could just as easily be randomly determined by your DNA.

oh I know, I was looking for a better phrase, 'greater force' might have been more appropriate, but I fear that will get the Star Wars boffins over

aidan_walsh

aidan_walsh wrote:

Consider also the actions of others.

Depends on what I've done to get into a situation where they'd affect me, non?
Assuming I believe in rebirth, of course, since I'm affected by birth etc

MrJoeSoap

Marts wrote:

I did not want this to turn to a religious debate, just because there are so many among us with their own religious beliefs and obviously there are a lot of athiests who do not believe in any 'greater beings' (I am doing my best not to p*ss anyone off, but I have got a few on-board atm) all I am asking is that anyone interested think outside the box for a minute

I think its hard to have a discussion about whether or not our lives are "pre-determined" (controlled by an outside force) without referring to the outside force, which I would imagine in most peoples eyes is ultimately religion.

If there was any scientific hypothesis behind "fate" I'd love to hear about it, like in Donnie Darko with the "portal" that comes out of his stomach. But I didn't fully understand that either tbh! Still a great film.

melekalikimaka

for the religious buffs, I'd be interested in their views on this, I very much sit on the fence when it comes to god but this theory and the theory of conditional predestination(conditional election) interests me

Conditional election is the doctrine that states that God's election (or "choosing") is not determined arbitrarily or according to some hidden motive undiscernable to humans. Instead, as God looks down the corridors of human history, he chooses all individuals that have faith in Jesus and sovereignly decides to save those and those alone.

monkeyfudge

A lot of this does come down to genetics.

There are cases of identical twins seperated at birth who meet up later in life to find they have both pursued the same careers and married women with the same names.

MrJoeSoap

monkeyfudge wrote:

A lot of this does come down to genetics.

There are cases of identical twins seperated at birth who meet up later in life to find they have both pursued the same careers and married women with the same names.

Another thing I often think about. Have you got any links to those?

mloc

pre-determined in what sense? the future is ultimately indeterminable due to the theories of quantum physics.

If it were possible however to know the position and energies of everything in the universe, then, yes, it would be possible to predict the actions of everyone and everything exactly. But that would be totally impossible to do.

At the end of the day, it's all just one big equation. We are all just variables. Everyone has an impact on everyone else. While in some respects it's true that our lives are pre-determined the whole argument is moot: they are only pre-determined in the sense that they are the result of other actions before them.

As far as some greater being having some effect on the direction of our choices, that is a matter of personal opinion, in itself a result of indoctrination and information learned from events in the past.

melekalikimaka

monkeyfudge wrote:

A lot of this does come down to genetics.

There are cases of identical twins seperated at birth who meet up later in life to find they have both pursued the same careers and married women with the same names.

yeah i've heard bout stuff like that... but coincidence is also possible, which is also the discussion, coincidence or fate???

The Bollox

ok I'll give another definition of what I mean: say that in a formerlife / afterlife there is a script where every single creature that ever existed or that ever will exist on earth is a character, and their lines and actions are all in this script. But because we will never be able to read the script before we die we don't know what we are supposed to do, and therefore we assume that everything we do here on Earth is what we decide to do, and we cannot go against what is written down

(this is mind boggling)

MrJoeSoap

Marts wrote:

ok I'll give another definition of what I mean: say that in a formerlife / afterlife there is a script where every single creature that ever existed or that ever will exist on earth is a character, and their lines and actions are all in this script. But because we will never be able to read the script before we die we don't know what we are supposed to do, and therefore we assume that everything we do here on Earth is what we decide to do, and we cannot go against what is written down

(this is mind boggling)

What difference does anything make then? Would the "script-writers" add an Internet Thread like this in for comic effect?

Myself and a friend used to talk about this, but only really for a laugh. If he'd say something like "Wow, theres hardly any traffic today" and then a load of cars came we'd both look up to the sky and shake our heads (as if to say "we know you're having a laugh up there"). It was only trivial stuff like that, and it was quite funny at times, but being an Atheist my belief is firmly rooted in the type of ideas MLOC posted above.

melekalikimaka

Newcomb's Paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_paradox

The Bollox

melekalikimaka wrote:

Newcomb's Paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_paradox

I feel weak after reading that, God damn that is confusing

monkeyfudge

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Another thing I often think about. Have you got any links to those?

Not off the top of my head, but I've read of it in the past.

Seperated twins are perfect for studies into human behaviour as it allows us to see how much of a factor enviroment and genetics play in shaping how a human behaves.

I don't believe in a God or fate... but I do believe that a large amount of our behaviour is determined by our genetics, but of course enviroment plays a large part as well.

MrJoeSoap

monkeyfudge wrote:

Not off the top of my head, but I've read of it in the past.

Seperated twins are perfect for studies into human behaviour as it allows us to see how much of a factor enviroment and genetics play in shaping how a human behaves.

I don't believe in a God or fate... but I do believe that a large amount of our behaviour is determined by our genetics, but of course enviroment plays a large part as well.

Yeah, the whole "tabula rasa" vs "genetics" vs "a combination of both" comes into play.

That Newcombs Paradox took a while to get through but it is actually genius. Can't wait to try it out on someone!

melekalikimaka

another theory is the grandfather paradox, but just google it, tis not relevent as much here. i think the twins theory is a bit far fetched but I'm no expert.the very idea of free will, kinda is atheist i think.