the laughing stock of europe !

lili

what do you think about the rivalry between sarkozy and de villepin?
and what do you think about french politics in general?
it's starting to become ridiculous or should i say pathetic?

chirac is on the down hill, so many stupid decisions and unacceptable power abuse . who will take avantage of this?
a strong sarkozy, a surprising ségolène royal?

for more informations on what's going on, take a look at the clearstream's affair.

Sponge Bob

lili wrote:

what do you think about french politics in general?

Its Time for a 6th republic . France is fossilised, run by the Grand Ecole fools and overcentralised.

Until the 6th republic I care little about which Grand Ecole progeny gets selected to lead a party with a chance of winning power.

lili

Sponge Bob wrote:

Its Time for a 6th republic . France is fossilised, run by the Grand Ecole fools and overcentralised.

Until the 6th republic I care little about which Grand Ecole progeny gets selected to lead a party with a chance of winning power.

maybe you're right, maybe the bells of the 6th republic are rining.
seems the frenchies do have nomore respect for the institutions.

Sponge Bob

The 5th republic was brought in under threat of a military coup and after the debacles in Algeria and Dien Bien Phu. That threat to the stability of the state no longer exists in France and so its time for an intelligent and open debate on the 6th republic. Along with the dissipation of the threat the need to centralise EVERYTHING has also gone.

Yet France remains the most centralised of all the worlds powers along with China . Even Japan has a more functional regional tier of government .

As that debate on an intelligent and mutable structure has not even started in France we are way off being able to predict what happens but the German 'Land' model is a pretty good one .

The fact that all the people you mention subscribe, in essence, to the core model of the 5th republic and that they are all equally unwilling to throw any new ideas into the ring means that they are only prolonging the agony and are all therefore part of the problem.

C'est la folie

gom

Just to wade into this debate.
I was over in Paris back in March and took part in several student demos and the first general strike day. It was in inspiration from my prospective coming from the 'Irish Left' and Student movement over here. After discussions with many student leaders including the leader of UNEF, Gilliard I realised that France is on a path of no return. France will either morph into a completely failed state or a revitalised Social Democratic state (e.g. direction Denmark).

The [fictional] media debate between Sarkozy and Villepin. Who will Royal run against etc is alittle out of touch with the reality. Royal is by no means favoured by here own party to run for the Presidency in November(when the PS is holding its Presidential selection and programme for the presidency). Personally I think that Royal is the only hope for a future for France that I can see. The only problem is she is a complete Blairite which is not at all going to help France. She would face a similar opposition that the current UMP lot face.

Which brings me to the idea of the 6th Republic. I have many close friends and comrades in the French Socialist Party - PS. Specifically their highly active Youth Section - MJS. Rémi Bazillier, International Secretary of MJS has a very good mostly in English which highlights many of the issues in French Politics in a very readible manner from the ground. Give it a look in.

Back to the 6th Republic. MJS has a very clear idea about what the 6th Republic would be and are gaining substantial support for it.
Parlimentary Democracy. Essentially ending the old Presidential system that exists in France. Pretty much the only Western European Country with a President wielding such executive powers. They also want a greater level of PR introduced to France. I'm leaving out the substantial Socialist policies tagged to their idea of a 6th Republic for the sheltered minds of Ireland who shiver at the idea of Equality and Fairness[sic].

Personally I feel very depressed about France. Its a great country and a brilliant place to live (and study... about 600 Euros for the average Masters course even for an Irish citizen). France followed the correct social reforms and social agenda following the fall for the 4th Republic. The only problem is it has failed to account for the reality of Globalisation. As a Socialist I would love to implement Keynesian Policies but in reality I know it will led to high inflaiton which will result in job losses. In france this is still the policy objective of both the old-Right(Villepin and Chirac) and most of the Left. Royal and Sarkozy are both respectively seen as neo-left and neo-right ists. Royal as the Blairite and Sarkozy as Aznar/McCreevy. Both of these models are viewed with a level of hostility in Franc ebut I would expect one of the two. Most probably Royal to win the Presidency.

Fingeres crossed that France changes. But be aware. A Neo-Liberial France is an impossiblity. There would be a COmmunist revolution in Paris long before a real neo-liberial government could exist...

Sponge Bob

gom wrote:

Just to wade into this debate.
I was over in Paris back in March and took part in several student demos and the first general strike day. It was in inspiration from my prospective coming from the 'Irish Left' and Student movement over here. After discussions with many student leaders including the leader of UNEF, Gilliard I realised that France is on a path of no return. France will either morph into a completely failed state or a revitalised Social Democratic state (e.g. direction Denmark).

Back to the 6th Republic. MJS has a very clear idea about what the 6th Republic would be and are gaining substantial support for it.
Parlimentary Democracy. Essentially ending the old Presidential system that exists in France.

That AND decentralisation to some degree, there is no point having all the decision making in Paris ...whether parliamentary or presidential.

There would be a Communist revolution in Paris long before a real neo-liberial government could exist...

But there was a big one in Paris about 130 years ago was there not ???? and thats before they even became fashionable.

While I believe France is fixable I also believe there is a huge gap between the Grand Ecoles caste (or tribe ) ...whether left or right wing.....and those they rule from Paris .

gom

SpongeBob

While I agree with you on many of the points you just mentioned I might draw your attention to Ireland. Ireland is actually the most Centralised country in Europe. In the late 70s all Local County Councils lost their powers. There is no constitutional protection of Local/Regional government in Ireland unlike most other democratic EU states. There is no directly elected regional government(i.e. quangos of BMW, SERA and GreaterDub Athority). City Mayors are not able to exercise executive powers as is necessary for real regional development to take place....
France used to be and has undergone a huge amount of devolution(decentralisation is not nearly the same). Extensive Decentralisation in the 80s led to Devolution under Delors in the early 90s. While there is room for more devolution in France it is not nearly as big a problem as the current ideas from the Right-Wing government. French regional areas have substantially more power than even the Scottish Regional Assembly does.

Ireland is the closed thing to Soviet Russia in Europe after Moldovia in terms of Central PLanning.

Sponge Bob

gom wrote:

Ireland is actually the most Centralised country in Europe. In the late 70s all Local County Councils lost their powers.

While you are technically entirely correct its not correct to consider Ireland, the size of a large Departement in France in the same way . Ireland can do with 2 tiers of government where France needs 3 or 4 .

France used to be and has undergone a huge amount of devolution(decentralisation is not nearly the same).

Devolved government is what I meant , thanks for the correction.

As for future leaders its Royal vs Villepin (ENA vs ENA) in place of Chirac (ENA) or maybe Royal vs Sarkozy who never got thru Sci Pol to get into the ENA which is what he no doubt wanted.

Fossils they are . Roll on the 6th and abolish the ENA !

lili

decentralisation, you mean give more power and self determination to the regions?
it would be quite dangerous for the republic, i'm thinking to regions like : corse, britany, pays basque...

TomF

I just read an interesting commentary on the recent demonstrations by French young people against the proposed law allowing employers to put make new employees under a longer "provisional" period of employment. It does make a difference whose ox is being gored, doesn't it!

"Diogenes' task of finding an honest man was surely no more difficult than the task of finding a French student who would admit to protesting for selfish reasons. No doubt they were all protesting for 'liberty, equality, fraternity.' But by sabotaging the hope of serious labor reform, many of the students made themselves better off, at least for a while. And their gain comes at the expense of poor French youth of foreign (mostly of North-African) descent.

Those university students in the vanguard of the anti-reform protest are the ones most likely to get the secure jobs that are becoming increasingly scarce in France. And they increased their chances by stopping labor reform in its tracks. The student leaders are predominantly well-connected, upper-class types who have learned to expect privileges, such as university attendance at almost no cost. They are unlikely to be discriminated against because of their religious or ethnic backgrounds. Young ethnic minorities in France aren't so lucky. They are discriminated against, in large measure because of the labor market restrictions the elite students fought to maintain. And why not? Discrimination protects the favored students from the competition of the less fortunate minorities for the permanent jobs that are available. This discrimination goes a long way in explaining why in some of the French communities populated primarily by North Africans, the unemployment rate exceeds 30 percent.

Most French employers prefer to hire non-minorities unless there is some offsetting advantage to taking a chance on minority workers. This could be because of prejudice against minorities, or because minorities haven't had the training desired, or because of some combination of the two. As long as labor laws restrict flexibility on wages and salaries and make it extremely difficult to terminate workers who don't turn out to be satisfactory, the unemployment rate will remain higher for the minority than non-minority workers."
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=050506D

spanner

France really needs to sort out the unemployment problem, I dont know the paticulars of the arguement about the law for probationary period but I do know what it is like been on the dole, its depressing embrassing and you lose all purpose and drive in your life. Some of the % that are said about youth unemployment are alarming.
Painful changes are going to have to be made and their unions will need to get on board.

Cork

Europe needs a France with it's act together.

France was one of the forces in Europe - it is now a mess.

What is worrying is that it is likely to remain a mess without major economic reform.

This will not come untill it can be sold yo the French voters.

I am not holding my breath on this one.

Unpossible

revitalised Social Democratic state (e.g. direction Denmark).

would that not be a good thing? I havent been there, but Im led to believe that all nordic countries are quiet good places to live.