[article] New bus terminus should be on Dublin's 'periphery'

NavanJunction1

New bus terminus should be on Dublin's 'periphery'
Marie O'Halloran
04/05/2006

A new national bus terminus should be located on the perimeter of Dublin rather than the city centre, according to Minister for Transport Martin Cullen.


Mr Cullen expects to decide before the end of this Dáil session on the allocation of 100 buses this year and a further 100 next year to Dublin Bus, in the context of the bus network review and bus market reform proposals.

"We are close to the end game in these issues and I want to bring them to a conclusion very quickly during this session," he said.

The Minister said that while it was a "matter for the future" he would like to see a "new major national bus terminus for all inter-city traffic on the periphery of Dublin, where passengers would be redistributed to all the different points to which people want to go".

It was "not true that everybody travelling on an inter-city coach into Dublin wants to end up in O'Connell Street or in Busáras", he added.

Catherine Murphy (Ind, Kildare North) said the issue of bus transport was "not just a question of putting buses on the road, the other infrastructure is also required. It is desperately difficult to find space in the city centre for a bus terminus." Ms Murphy was concerned about the level of service for Kildare.

It "seems there is a dispute between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats as to the extent the Dublin Bus network will be privatised", she said.

Mr Cullen said he had no plans to privatise Dublin Bus.

Fine Gael's transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell said that "ten years ago Dublin Bus had just less than 1,000 buses. Now it has just over 1,000 buses despite the fact that the population has gone up by over 250,000 and geographically Dublin has grown beyond recognition", but the increased demand had been completely unmet.

© The Irish Times

NavanJunction1

I'm telling you, Broadstone will be lost, and what happened to Spencer Dock will happen there.

This is about developers not transport.

markf909

It was "not true that everybody travelling on an inter-city coach into Dublin wants to end up in O'Connell Street or in Busáras", he added.

The same could be said for Dublin Bus also. Anyone who's had to rely on the the 239 orbital route will testify to how poor the non-radial routes are.

parsi

NavanJunction1 wrote:

It was "not true that everybody travelling on an inter-city coach into Dublin wants to end up in O'Connell Street or in Busáras", he added.

Ah Bus Eireann - the Ryanair of the Road. I can see the destination scrolls now
"Baile Atha Cliath-LUCAN

murphaph

God that wa an awful article, drifting between BE and BAC in every paragraph. Anyway, surely the ideal location for a new bus station is near the southern mouth of the port tunnel, with people able to disembark at the various points around the M50 that the bus they are on crosses another major rail based mode, N1->metroNorth at Lissenhall, N2->metroWest at M50, N3->DART at Pace/metroWest at Blanch, N4->Lucan Luas/metroWest at Liffey Valley, N7->metroWest/Luas at Red Cow, N81->Luas/metroWest at Tallaght, N11->DART at Bray/Luas at wherever it will cross (cherrywood?). Then all the buses head round the M50 to access the port either by the tunnel from say N7 north or via the East Link from say the N81 south.

Of course, the cynic in me sees them floffing Busaras for a handsome profit and some piece of sh!t prefab replacement in some remote corner of the city, a la Sheriff St Staion fiasco.

Ste.phen

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Fine Gael's transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell said that "ten years ago Dublin Bus had just less than 1,000 buses. Now it has just over 1,000 buses despite the fact that the population has gone up by over 250,000 and geographically Dublin has grown beyond recognition", but the increased demand had been completely unmet.

How does "number of busses" compare to passenger capacity?
And are those figures correct to begin with?

MarkoP11

Dublin Bus have inexcess of 1100 buses, vast bulk of which are now double deckers where as in the past single deckers where more common. Each bus does carry more than those they replaced

I wouldn't listen to much Olivia Mitchell has to say she has been known not to do even the most basic research

Ste.phen

that was my first instinct alright

BuffyBot

Of course, the cynic in me sees them floffing Busaras for a handsome profit

Do CIE even own the building?

Transport21 Fan

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Fine Gael's transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell said that "ten years ago Dublin Bus had just less than 1,000 buses. Now it has just over 1,000 buses despite the fact that the population has gone up by over 250,000 and geographically Dublin has grown beyond recognition", but the increased demand had been completely unmet.

Even by her statndards this is pretty clueless. Everyone and her mother knows that there was loads of unused capacity on BAC 10 years ago and since then we have also had BE operating several commuter route, Maynooth Commuter rail, Hueston upgrade, DART upgrades and Luas as well. Not to mention the growth of private bus services. She really knows nothing about public transport.

Broadstone is the perfect location for Dublin's main bus terminal (or office blocks...)

murphaph

BuffyBot wrote:

Do CIE even own the building?

Possibly not, the dept. of social welfare have offices in it but it is state owned. Not sure who manages it for the state (OPW, CIE etc.). I like Busaras as a piece of architecture, would hate to see it demolished. It needs cleaning up to restore it to it's original glory however.

BuffyBot

I like Busaras as a piece of architecture, would hate to see it demolished.

I don't think it can be - I'm fairly sure it's listed now.

John R

Busaras is owned by the state and managed (by the OPW?) for the Department of Social Welfare who effectively "own" it.

It is not part of the CIE property portfolio, Bus Eireann basically lease and run the bus station part of it.

It is a listed building, the current interior refurbishment is about as far as it's going to go with regards to modernisation. The exterior could do with a cleaning but that is down to the DSW/OPW/etc.



Putting a bus station on the outskirts of the city is an appalling idea, it may be true that everyone doesn't want to go to the city centre but nobody wants to go to an industrial estate off the M50.

This idea is not to develop public transport although it would be a huge boost to business for all the private operators who use city centre streets to load up in, a situation that is much less desirable than a central bus station.

I can think of no city where it's main long distance bus station is outside the city centre, it is a patently stupid idea from a minister that hasn't got a clue about the area he is in control of.

Dublin does need a bunch of local bus stations in peripheral towns to serve local, orbital and express city services. Several locations for these were identified in the recent Dublin Bus report but that is a different issue entirely.

The DB fleet size is an issue, overall capacity has gone up mainly by replacing smaller buses with larger ones and the addition of extra "euro" peak operations in 2000-2002 but in no way is the fleet adequate for the size of the city as it now is.

dowlingm

If the Eastern Bypass was constructed then a new station near DPT seems like the best option.

murphaph

dowlingm wrote:

If the Eastern Bypass was constructed then a new station near DPT seems like the best option.

Even without it it's attractive IMO. The N11 has the best QBC by miles running along it so BE buses from the southeast could easily reach the East Link without too much traffic problems. The bus depot in the port also allows the Luas Red line reach it so city centre passengers have a decent rail mode even if they stay on the bus all the way to the bus station. I agree that a bus station on the M50 ring would be disastrous. I like Buchanan St bus station in Glasgow more than most and it's because it has rapid access to the M8. A station near the DPT woul have similar benefits. It'd all hinge on a successful M50 upgrade of course.

seamus

There a large section of land out beside B&Q in Liffey Valley which is zoned for civic buildings. There's a large sign at one side of this saying "Future site of bus terminus". Maybe that's what they're referring to?

jd

seamus wrote:

There a large section of land out beside B&Q in Liffey Valley which is zoned for civic buildings. There's a large sign at one side of this saying "Future site of bus terminus". Maybe that's what they're referring to?

Jeeze I hope not. The terminus doesn't have to be next to O'Connell street, but should be more or less within the canals..

bazzer06

John R wrote:

I can think of no city where it's main long distance bus station is outside the city centre

Amsterdam?
Barcelona?
Frankfurt?

I don't think its a bad idea at all if the transport links to the centre are adjacent and reliable - which i presume would be a prerequisite of finding a site for this proposed bus station.

icdg

Think its a bad idea. At least at Busaras pretty much anywhere in Dublin you can get a bus and have a short enough walk there. If it was put anywhere in the suburbs likelyhood is that many people will have to get at least two buses to get there. Before you even get on your coach.

bazzer06

At the moment it takes me 45 minutes to get from busaras to loughlinstown (i get the bus to wexford). I reckon a peripheral station would cut down on total journey time from door to door. if it meant less time travelling, i personally would be happy to have to change modes once or even twice!

jd

bazzer06 wrote:

At the moment it takes me 45 minutes to get from busaras to loughlinstown (i get the bus to wexford). I reckon a peripheral station would cut down on total journey time from door to door. if it meant less time travelling, i personally would be happy to have to change modes once or even twice!

What if the peripheral station was in Liffey Valley (The Wexford bus continuing down the M50!!) ??

dowlingm

I suppose if the bus station was on the lucan luas and had the same arrangement as Heuston (a ticket to the bus station is good for a trip to city centre) that might work?

NavanJunction1

This government has no interest in public transport.

They'll sell a city centre asset(s) and buy on the cheap elsewhere.

Expect disappointment.

Kind of rob Paul to pay Peter scenario.

Build a toll road - pay anything.
Build or upgrade public transport - pay minimum and fund expenditure by flogging as many assets as possible

Transport21 Fan

John R wrote:

I can think of no city where it's main long distance bus station is outside the city centre

Actually it tends to be the norm more and more these days. In many European cities they have the main bus depot on the outkirts of the city centre with metro connections and/or local bus services into the downtown areas.

If the new Dublin bus station is on the Metro then no problem.

I am starting to suspect it'll be on Metro-North somewhere between Ballymun and the Airport next to the M50.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Actually it tends to be the norm more and more these days. In many European cities they have the main bus depot on the outkirts of the city centre with metro connections and/or local bus services into the downtown areas.

If the new Dublin bus station is on the Metro then no problem.

If it's done properly.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could actually see what was planned for once?

BendiBus

I'm definitely undecided on this. I'm very supportive of maintining the city centre as the focus of city life, and delivering visitors to the centre of the city is important. It is also the most 'egalitarian' as it is by definition central so no area is unfairly distanced from the centre.

However the advantages in terms of bus fleet utilisation - the bus companies could save a lot of time/fuel and get more trips out of their fleets if they can avoid city traffic. This is positive for public transport in general.

Provided it is co-located with high quality, high frequency, accessible city-based public transport it could work.

Currently Busaras is more-or-less accessible in a single no-change trip to most people. I can think of nowhere even post T21 that can provide this kind of accessibility outside the central zone. I agree with T21Fan ( ) that the Metro adjacent to the M50 would be the best out-of-town location but it's far from perfect for people on the Southside, especially if their bus trip is taking them sout or west.

I need more convincing that the city centre can be beaten as a location.

Intuitively, Docklands near the DPT feels right. Maybe the new Docklands or Spencer Dock rail station could have a bus station co-located. Maybe. :cool:

John R

murphaph wrote:

Even without it it's attractive IMO. The N11 has the best QBC by miles running along it so BE buses from the southeast could easily reach the East Link without too much traffic problems. The bus depot in the port also allows the Luas Red line reach it so city centre passengers have a decent rail mode even if they stay on the bus all the way to the bus station. I agree that a bus station on the M50 ring would be disastrous. I like Buchanan St bus station in Glasgow more than most and it's because it has rapid access to the M8. A station near the DPT woul have similar benefits. It'd all hinge on a successful M50 upgrade of course.

East Wall is still an area nobody wants to go to though, putting a main bus station in a periphery makes bus travel less attractive.

Buchanan St has direct access to the motorway network but is is also a short walk from the centre of Glasgow.

Europa bus station in Belfast is probably the best example of a good location close enough the centre of the city along with excellent access to the road network. Being co-located with the main rail station is a big benefit too. This isn't an option for Dublin, we aren't going to get any motorways that close to the city which IMO is no bad thing.

Only N1, N2 and maybe N3 routes would be quicker via the DPT/M50 than current routes. Services to all places from Sligo to Waterford would take longer than current routes and leave passengers further away from their Dublin destination than before.

If the political will was there a proper city location could easily be found and financed privately similar to the Dublin Bus site at Strand Street.

John R

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Actually it tends to be the norm more and more these days. In many European cities they have the main bus depot on the outkirts of the city centre with metro connections and/or local bus services into the downtown areas.

Outskirts of the city centre is one thing, particularly in cities with larger centres (Amstel station in Amsterdam for example) but putting it in a far flung suburban location and forcing passengers to change to crowded stopping commuter rail services is a terrible idea.

If it is forced on Bus Eireann alone it will instantly kill their express network from Dublin adding huge amounts of extra privates loading up on city centre streets where passengers want to go from.

Whatever your view on BE vs Private operators i challenge anyone to argue that allowing long distance services run from bus poles on crowded city streets is a good thing.

If it is forced on all operators it will leave inter-city bus travel to the financially desperate or the small minority who live close to the station. For everyone else it will be so inconvenient that it won't be an option.

Better interchanges should be provided around the M50 ring so that long distance buses can load/set down people to get local connections at the point the services intersect the motorway.

All long distance buses already have a suburban pick-up/drop off point as it is. Dublin Airport(N1), Loughlinstown Hospital (N11), Square Tallaght (N81), Newlands Cross (N7), Spa Hotel Lucan and Maynooth Rail station (N4). These are used but only in small numbers, the vast majority of people board in the city centre.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

If the new Dublin bus station is on the Metro then no problem.

I am starting to suspect it'll be on Metro-North somewhere between Ballymun and the Airport next to the M50.

It would be a big problem for anyone who needs multiple changes to get to it. which is most of the city.

It wouldn't even provide many time benefits for the bus journeys, Red cow to Airport is not much quicker than Red cow to city centre. In peak hours both are badly congested and off peak 20-25 mns. So anyone not from the Santry/Ballymun/Swords area it would just mean an extra trip in the opposite direction of travel and for what? The city centre is the only practical place for a bus station.

Spencer Dock would have been a reasonable-ish location, Broadstone isn't terrible either but what is really needed is a proper central station to deal with ALL long distance bus services.

Pfungstadter

You could build a new bus a intercity rail station in the west, and north,
Only if there was a good METRO connection to the city, not a service every fifteen but every five to eight min. This would free up rail lines inside the city.

And it'd have to be METRO not stup LUAS connection, or LUAS underground, a proper rail connection. I've seen it in Perth with the rail station. It's a couple a k's from the perth station (city center) this freed up all the platforms for a metro service, without having to widen track in the city centre.

Metrobest

John R wrote:

what is really needed is a proper central station to deal with ALL long distance bus services.

There is one. It's called Busaras.


Unfortunately it is run so incompetently by CIE that a false perception has been created that Busaras is at choking point.

The last time I was at Busaras on a Friday I gasped at the queues for every departure gate snaking around the terminal. Then I looked at the timings; something dawned on me.

All buses at Busaras leave in convoys, one of CIE's special ways of transport management. Multiple buses are scheduled to depart at the one time, eg. 6pm. Most of the gates are scheduled to handle one bus per hour.. When will they realise the level of chaos this causes needlessly?

For example, Gate 6 for Galway has a scheduled departure at 6pm, then nothing until 7pm. What happens in practice at peak times is that 100+ passengers queue for a bus at 6pm. They cannot be accomodated on one bus. Yet the staff at Busaras stand around like monkeys oblivious to the reality. They hide from passengers until about 6.05pm, when they announce that another bus will be needed. (Thanks, Sherlock.) By now passengers from the next bus are begining to arrive, adding to the congestion.

This situation is repeated at every gate and every bus in the station. This should not be happening. Only CIE is to blame.

Then there are the queues for tickets. CIE in its wisdom decided to install one TVM for Ireland's largest bus station. CIE must think the country folk wouldn't know how to use those machine thingys. They'd much prefer have people queue for 20 minutes and miss their bus because they wouldn't want to endanger the jobs-for-life dimwits at the ticket counters, and the information desk which never gives you any information worth knowing :rolleyes:

My suggestion is this. At peak times, buses should be leaving each gate at 20 minute intervals. No two buses should be scheduled to leave or arrive at Busaras at the same time. All that's needed to achieve this is strict adherence to scheduled departure times. Bus Eireann is the best of the CIE group thanks to competition - it needs to show that it's capable to running Busaras effectively or it's going to lose out to the motorways.

When T21 is in place, I would suggest that Drogheda/Louth buses terminate at the airport for connections to metro, freeing up capacity at Busaras.

I've also always thought the gate arrangements at Busaras could do with a re-design. It needs more space for buses to turn. The existing gates are an accident waiting to happen. The railings around the building should be demolished, modifications made to the existing street layout (including removal of railings at rear of Customs House and street moved inside that space together with new civic area utilsing the full potential of the Customs House.)

More ticket machines are needed, and terminals where customers can stick in their credit card to retreive an internet-booked ticket, just like at the Cinema. I tried Bus Eireann's internet booking facility once and let's just say it was an experience I'd rather forget.

And why is Busaras a listed building? I think it looks awful. Yeah, the pillars are okay but the rest of the buildings looks like Hawkin's House in wet weather. I'd be happy to see a JCB working on on the rubble of Busaras.

Slice

I agree insofar as a bus terminus on the outskirts would be very off-putting for potential passengers, irrespective of what's done in other cities I don't think given Dublin's comparatively poor public transport that an outskirts terminus is a good idea.

I think the issue with Busaras is more to do with space and capacity than anything else - what's more staggered departure times wouldn't really solve that too much and it would really only confuse anyone using it. I regularly get busses northbound and I get it because I know there's a bus for me every hour on the half hour leaving, if that were to change I wouldn't be so quick to use it. Also, I have never found them lacking on the service to Dundalk in that if a second bus is needed there's usually a second bus provided within a few minutes, this was also my experience on the Navan/Cavan service. On an off note, I don't think there can be much of a re-design of Busaras given that it's a listed building - that's part of the problem with capacity there.

I think perhaps a bus terminal in the docklands would be better than something on the outskirts of the city. It would still be convenient to the city centre, it would be unbiased towards northside/southside suburbs and it would be at the centre of future transport links. What's more it would reduce travel times out of the city because of the port tunnel.

Airmail

How about Heuston for the new bus terminal (post Transport 21). ie.the dublin bus site on Parkgate Street/Conyngham road.

If a bridge was built connecting this site to heuston carpark you would have one main terminal for all intercity bus services and the majority of intercity trains. It would offer considerable time advantages over a docklands terminal.

There would be the interconnector-dart and luas connections.

dowlingm

metrobest has a point (maybe he should stick to buses?) If Ryanair can get on and off stand in 25 minutes with 189 people on a 737 a bus should not be at a gate any longer than 15-20 allowing for loading/unloading.

John R

dowlingm wrote:

metrobest has a point (maybe he should stick to buses?) If Ryanair can get on and off stand in 25 minutes with 189 people on a 737 a bus should not be at a gate any longer than 15-20 allowing for loading/unloading.

They are not, loading is usually 10 minutes and unloading is less than 5 minutes with the buses usually leaving the station immediately.

Metrobest as usual has a half-correct idea surrounded by rubbish.

There is a certain amount of bunching on the hour although many services are scheduled to leave on the half hour and some at 15/45 past.

There is no need to re-use gates, that is not where the main capacity problem is. Most gates at Busaras only cater for 1 or 2 different routes.

It would be impossible to schedule arrivals for a particular gap, the traffic approaching Dublin is too unpredictable

The problem is that there is not enough space for bus movements inside the station and the approach/departure route is very congested.

Metrobest did happen upon a location I think would have potential for a good bus station; Hawkins House.

That monstrosity could really do with being demolished. It is a fairly large central site, close to DART and metro and with a bit of work it could give reasonable road access to/from most major routes.

Metrobest

Arrivals may be tricky to schedule. Departures aren't.

Why does Busaras schedule several buses to depart at the same second, and then nothing from several gates for 60 minutes. It's archaic. It's the way they've always done it, so why bother changing? That's the attitude, unfortunately.

* No two buses should be scheduled to depart at the same time.
* Each gate should comfortably handle three scheduled departures per hour at peak times.
* Most inbound passengers don't want to arrive at Busaras - set-downs could be organised for George's Quay and Eden Quay during the peak which would elimate conflicting movements at Busaras.

The railings around Busaras contribute to the problem - they "fence in" the buses, making it difficult to manouvre. The railings shuld be removed, and the footprint of Busaras extended. This could allow a new exit-only portal directly onto Amiens Street.

That monstrosity could really do with being demolished

I agree. It's such an eyesore, it needs to be shut down.

Hopefully if the Trinity-Tara metro station is developed, Hawkins House can be demolished and a new office/retail tower built, underneath which a travlator will connnect the metro platforms at Hawkins Street and DART at Tara. There would be space for buses, too.

It would be a fantastic addition to the city.

craigybagel

Most gates may only be used every hour but using them more frequently causes problems. Gate 3 on a Sunday sees the 17:45 Sligo followed by the 18:00 Cork, a bus i use regularly. The queue outside this gate from 17:30 onwards is always chaotic, with a lot of confusion over which bus is going first, as the displays change at 17:47 regardless of whether the Sligo bus has departed or not (and it usually hasnt). By the time it finally does go theres then only a few minutes left to load up the cork (usually two buses at least). So realistically, at peak hours the gates can only be used every 30 mins to still be reliable, and on that basis Busarus must be close to capacity.

Dont know how relavant this is to other routes but on the cork buses at most 3 people get on or off at Newlands Cross, with everyone else continuing in to the city centre. So unless we have a reliable and fast way of moving people to the centre from the centre (cue hollow laughter) this cant be a good idea.

Metrobest

Craigy, wouldn't you say that that's down to poor enforcement of scheduled departure times.

If the 17.45 Sligo service started loading at 17.31, departed on time, and the Cork service begain loading at 17.46, would these queues still exist?

There is a culture of confusion and chaos at Busaras which makes passengers arrive ridiculously early because of the problems you mentioned.

Most of the human congestion at Busaras is passengers waiting for buses to start boarding. You've got empy buses sitting for minutes at departure gates while 100+ passengers form a queue snaking around the hall.

Why anyone in Busaras can't implement simple solutions to rectify these problems is beyond me.

monument

Metrobest wrote:

* Most inbound passengers don't want to arrive at Busaras - set-downs could be organised for George's Quay and Eden Quay during the peak which would elimate conflicting movements at Busaras.

Most/all buses from Ballina already stop just before or after O’Connell Street – from my limited experience half or sometimes more of the passengers depart at this point.

craigybagel

Metrobest wrote:

Craigy, wouldn't you say that that's down to poor enforcement of scheduled departure times.

If the 17.45 Sligo service started loading at 17.31, departed on time, and the Cork service begain loading at 17.46, would these queues still exist?

There is a culture of confusion and chaos at Busaras which makes passengers arrive ridiculously early because of the problems you mentioned.

Most of the human congestion at Busaras is passengers waiting for buses to start boarding. You've got empy buses sitting for minutes at departure gates while 100+ passengers form a queue snaking around the hall.

Why anyone in Busaras can't implement simple solutions to rectify these problems is beyond me.

You make a good point but for the Cork to start boarding as soon as the Sligo departs it has to be somewhere nearby waiting,with a driver onboard and in Busaras at that time of night thats almost impossible. Though i do agree earlier boarding would help it seems to be at the moment that drivers leave it as late as possible to waddle out to open up their bus.