Anti-American

enfant terrible

I am a 23 year old Irish man and find the vast majority of my friend's are severly anti-american.
Why is this?
When I question their beliefs I get broad statements like "the war in Iraq is a disaster" and "Bush is a fool".
When I look for specifis on why its a disaster I get more broad statements.
My point is the vast majority of the public is ignorant and does not get both sides of the story.
Just watch the bbc's newsnight and is clear its anti-bush.
For the other side watch Fox News, show's like The O' Reilly Factor and Hannity & Colmes just for a more balanced view on the war and make up your own mind.

DadaKopf

TROLLLLLLLLLLLL. Got a good chuckle outta that, did you?

People dislike American policy, not America.

lostexpectation

"thats because reality has a well known liberal bias"

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054925509

Tar.Aldarion

enfant terrible wrote:

I am a 23 year old Irish man and find the vast majority of my friend's are severly anti-american.
Why is this?
When I question their beliefs I get broad statements like "the war in Iraq is a disaster" and "Bush is a fool".
When I look for specifis on why its a disaster I get more broad statements.
My point is the vast majority of the public is ignorant and does not get both sides of the story.
Just watch the bbc's newsnight and is clear its anti-bush.
For the other side watch Fox News, show's like The O' Reilly Factor and Hannity & Colmes just for a more balanced view on the war and make up your own mind.

People assume that if you have a half a brain then you will know.
How and ever, there are people just going with the crowd against bush because they don't know anything. At least these idiots are on the correct side.

enfant terrible

Thanks for the specifics DadaKopf.
Try at least watching Fox News some time and you'll see how dumb liberals are, George Clooney,Alec Baldwin etc.
Read Ann Coulter's book if you can bring yourself to do it.
If you are constantly fed one side you will believe it.

Tar.Aldarion

enfant terrible wrote:

Thanks for the specifics DadaKopf.
Try at least watching Fox News some time and you'll see how dumb liberals are, George Clooney,Alec Baldwin etc.
Read Ann Coulter's book if you can bring yourself to do it.
If you are constantly fed one side you will believe it.

Fox is the worst news show ever. I laugh out loud at some of the trite tripe they come out with.
You call bbc bias and then quote fox...lovely.

enfant terrible

I said get the other side i.e fox(right bias).
Have you ever watched fox?
Do you share the opinions of Baldwin and Clooney?

enfant terrible

"Fox is the worst news show ever. I laugh out loud at some of the trite tripe they come out with."

Give me an example.

Banphrionsa

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Fox is the worst news show ever. I laugh out loud at some of the trite tripe they come out with.
You call bbc bias and then quote fox...lovely.

Currently away from home in the States. I would have to agree with Tar regarding Fox News, the O'Reilly Factor, or the dominant Hannity vs. the weaker Colmes. Fox has a reputation in the States as being ultra-conservative and to the far right. They are anything but the "Fair and balanced news" slogan they use. They make the BBC look like a bunch of wild-eyed liberals, in comparison. No one that I know of in the university community where I temporarily live would give Fox the time of day.

enfant terrible

Give us some examples Banphrionsa.
People on the other side say the same of CNN,CBS etc.
No use without examples.
Would you say the Dan Rather episode was proof of CBS's bias.

Banphrionsa

enfant terrible wrote:

"Fox is the worst news show ever. I laugh out loud at some of the trite tripe they come out with."

Give me an example.

OK, I can give you one off the top of my head. Bill O'Reilly has attempted to portray himself as a man of the people, coming from humble beginnings. Do you know what university he graduated from? Harvard. Do you know how expensive it is to go to Harvard? Tuition for a four year programme exceeds $100,000 USD, and this does not include fees, books, and living expenses. Well, he did not go on one of the very few poor-folk scholarships (being a white, male). He came from big money, and he represents big money interests, although he attempts to candy coat this on Fox (and is frequently very defensive about it). We sometimes watch it just for laughs, because of the extraordinary bias evident in the programming.

Dirk Gently

Was actually thinking about starting a propper thread about what it means to be anti-American or un-American but I feel you have ruined my idea now with your silly reference to fox news.

I don't consider myself anti-American but I do disagree with American government policy. Does this mean I'm anti-American people?
I feel the term "un-American" is a contradiction in terms. How can a nation which supposedly has freedom of speech and freedom for individual choice call anything un-American.

I strongly disagree with the government of America in a wide range of issues from economic policy / environmental issues / human rights / war and so on, the list is endless. I consider myself a good world citizen rather than anti American. I imagine alot of ordinary Americans would agree with my views, does that make them un-American Americans.

Maybe there would be less anti American feeling in the world if everyone on the planet got a vote in the American presidency. The American president affects every country in the world as America interferes in the domestic life of every world citizen through its actions. It’s not fair that someone I don't have a vote for/against can influence political/economic events in other countries in which he was not elected.
The American government has a direct responsibility for environmental issues and nuclear issues and its actions can have a positive or negative impact on the whole world depending on what lead it gives to other countries.

I think I have a right to criticise American governments without being called anti-American. You could call me anti-American if I had an irrational hatred for ordinary American citizens but not for criticising their government, especially if that government is not representing the will of the American people.
Bush has 34% approval ratings so I'm 66% pro American.

To the op.
Fox news, was this an attempt to take the piss. Surely you’re not serious. American media coverage, especially fox is the most biased and unfair reporting in the world.

enfant terrible

Thanks for the reply.
That's not proof of Fox's right wing bias though is it.
That sound's like one of the e-mails he reads out at the end of the show attacking him out of context.
My example was better would you agree(Dan Rather)
In fact nearly all mainstream media in America is far-left i.e New York Times, L.A Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, CBS, ABC, and NBC.
Would you agree?

enfant terrible

"Fox news, was this an attempt to take the piss. Surely you’re not serious. American media coverage, especially fox is the most biased and unfair reporting in the world."

I keep hearing this but I have yet to get an example. Typical Liberal,big mouth with no facts.
Would you agree most media in America and Europe is far-left?

zuutroy

http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/specificbias.htm

Dirk Gently

Depends on your definition of far left.
If you describe far left as anything slightly left of conservative far right then I suppose you could call it far left, but in reality no.
I wouldn’t even consider European media to be left, never mind far left.
Plenty of right and far right media sources in Europe, again it depends on your definition of left and right. I don't consider anything in America to be left wing. You have at best centre right going to extreme right.

Banphrionsa

enfant terrible wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
That's not proof of Fox's right wing bias though is it.
That sound's like one of the e-mails he reads out at the end of the show attacking him out of context.
My example was better would you agree(Dan Rather)
In fact nearly all mainstream media in America is far-left i.e New York Times, L.A Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, CBS, ABC, and NBC.
Would you agree?

Let's just take one... The Washington Post?

Was it the Washington Post (before my time), but didn't they break the news on the breakins, called Watergate? Which ended up in the impeachment (resignation) of conservative Republican President Nixon? The conservative media has smeared the Washington Post since, calling them liberal.

But didn't the Washington Post also give full coverage about the more recent liberal Democrat (former) President Bill Clinton regarding potential curruption in Whitewater, as well as the sex scandal about ole Bill having fun with a college intern in the Oval Office?

Looks like they covered both sides of the issues, and are unfairly being labeled liberal or biased?

enfant terrible

Thanks zuutroy.
I agree that Fox is on the right but there's a difference between O' Reilly saying "the U.S. should bomb the Afghan infrastructure to rubble-- the airport, the power plants, their water facilities, and the roads." and Dan Rather's use of forged documents to try and discredit the president right before and election.

Check out http://www.mediaresearch.org/projects/rather20th/welcome.asp

Dirk Gently

enfant terrible wrote:

"Fox news, was this an attempt to take the piss. Surely you’re not serious. American media coverage, especially fox is the most biased and unfair reporting in the world."

I keep hearing this but I have yet to get an example. Typical Liberal,big mouth with no facts.
Would you agree most media in America and Europe is far-left?

Even the fact that the word “liberal" has become dirty and un-American is a testament to the right wing bias in the media. What you call far left is in fact anything which is not far right. It is not left wing at all, just not extreme conservative views.

enfant terrible

Thanks for the reply Banphrionsa.
Look i'm no Bush fanatic but i'm willing to listen to both sides of the argument not just one.

Banphrionsa

enfant terrible wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
That's not proof of Fox's right wing bias though is it.
That sound's like one of the e-mails he reads out at the end of the show attacking him out of context.
My example was better would you agree(Dan Rather)
In fact nearly all mainstream media in America is far-left i.e New York Times, L.A Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, CBS, ABC, and NBC.
Would you agree?

OK, let's take another one that you have labeled liberal (or far left)... ABC?

You have obviously heard of anchorman Charlie Gibson of ABC? Probably one of their biggest and longest lasting names? He co-hosts Good Morning America and often anchors Prime Time? He interviewed President Bush a few months ago. Would you call Charlie a liberal or a conservative?

Besides maybe seeing his show, have you ever personally met Charlie in person? Well, it so happens I have met Charlie at ABC in NY on several occasions and he knows me by first name (because of my work), and he is an ultra-conservative, and lives in very rich, conservative Long Island.

Furthermore, do you know who owns ABC? Disney. Do you have any idea how conservative Disney is? If you know a stock broker, ask them, don't believe me.

JB123

HEHE http://www.infowars.com/

billy the squid

enfant terrible wrote:

Thanks for the specifics DadaKopf.
Try at least watching Fox News some time and you'll see how dumb liberals are, George Clooney,Alec Baldwin etc.
Read Ann Coulter's book if you can bring yourself to do it.
If you are constantly fed one side you will believe it.

I was prepared to give you some slack, the is, until you mentioned Ann Coulter.

If you are looking for the personification of stupidity, then Ann Coulter is a safe bet.

What was it she said about hurricanes again, oh yeah, hurricanes are named after women and gay men because they fly off the handle alot. .

I recomend you add some Randi Rhodes to your diet of political discussion.

"Fox is the worst news show ever. I laugh out loud at some of the trite tripe they come out with."

Give me an example.

http://www.mediamatters.org
http://www.crooksandliars.com

you should find literally hundreds of examples there.

Manic Moran

The perception I have is that 'anti-americanism' has really only taken root in the last six years or so, primarily in the last five. I have concluded that the problem is people who either cannot, or will not distinguish between the country, and the current administration. Or worse, the current administration, and its policies on Iraq, which is pretty much the root of all controversy.

As for Fox News, it's definitely to the right of center. The other organisations are generally left of center. I don't think there is an unbiased network news station here, that's why I get my news from the Interweb.

NTM

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

The perception I have is that 'anti-americanism' has really only taken root in the last six years or so, primarily in the last five. I have concluded that the problem is people who either cannot, or will not distinguish between the country, and the current administration. Or worse, the current administration, and its policies on Iraq, which is pretty much the root of all controversy.

Anti-Americanism is a term used by neocons to allow them to rebut anything they do which is .. well anti-American.

"I don't like the fact Bush started an invasion based on false facts"
"So you hate America?"

And I know there is a huge difference between your average American and Bushes policies (well 50% anyway), but here is the kicker. Yous voted him in. Not us. You can't say "Weelll sure hes our president, sure hes ****ing up the world for us and yous, but hey I didn't vote for him". (godwin aside) If you voted in Hitler/Saddam and only found out after the fact would you sit on your ass or actually do something about it?

How fuking stupid or better yet, how much damage does Bush have to do before he is impeached/kicked out? How far are you willing to push it? I mean hes already fuked the USA as a super power and put it so far into debt your great grandchildren are screwed, you have an illegal war, coverup after coverup on dodgy dealings, sat back and did nothing during Kathrina, sat back and did nothing for most of the morning of 9/11, supporting administration who publically outed a CIA agent (treaon offense), supporting the detaining of people without rights, crippling your own troops.

The list goes on, and he still has just under 1000 days to completly **** things up. Even money says he does some **** with Iran.

Anti-American? No. Pissed off that you sit on your asses and let him do the things he does. Yes.

The comedy in all this is it takes a Jester (Colbert) to point it out where the US media won't how bad it is.

oscarBravo

Manic Moran wrote:

The other organisations are generally left of center.

On a planet where the "center" is located way off on the right wing, sure.

ob.read: The Right Nation, by John Micklethwait and Adrian Woolridge.

lili

enfant terrible wrote:

For the other side watch Fox News, show's like The O' Reilly Factor and Hannity & Colmes just for a more balanced view on the war and make up your own mind.

i'm speechless:eek:

BuffyBot

For the other side watch Fox News, show's like The O' Reilly Factor and Hannity & Colmes just for a more balanced view on the war and make up your own mind.

You know, I almost believed you up until that point

Sleipnir

BuffyBot wrote:

You know, I almost believed you up until that point

That's exactly what I thought. Troll anyone?

Hobbes

Sleipnir wrote:

That's exactly what I thought. Troll anyone?

Yea might be, although there are people who take Fox as Gospel.

bobbyjoe

This anti-American term is so childish I'm not aware of it happening with any other country. I thought the poll tax was wrong didn't make me anti-British. People are against a policy or policies not the whole country and everyone in it.
I think its a result of a lazy type of journalism and a device used by politicians just to label anything in order to dismiss it. Its a lot easier to dismiss an arguement by calling someone a commie or anti-American than to actualy debate the point.
Fox is a rubbish news station. Look at it for five minutes and its obvious. I don't have a problem with biased news its their right to follow a certain line but its the whole "fair and balanced" claim that is annoying. O'Reilly is a muppet, do a search for Bill O'Reilly on youtube or look at www.mediamatters.com for examples. Coulter is worse!!

New_Departure06

There is undoubtedly a strong strain of anti-Americanism on the Irish left. However I don't think most people are anti-American. I think though that we are anti US bias towards Israel and empathise with the Palestinians in that they are seeking a state and are oppressed like us in a former life - even if their tactics sometimes cross a line into terrorism against civilians unlike our heroic founding fathers and mothers.

Diarmuid

enfant terrible wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
That's not proof of Fox's right wing bias though is it.
That sound's like one of the e-mails he reads out at the end of the show attacking him out of context.
My example was better would you agree(Dan Rather)
In fact nearly all mainstream media in America is far-left i.e New York Times, L.A Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, CBS, ABC, and NBC.
Would you agree?

NO !

Outside of the US most of those far-left papers would be regarded as center and fox as far right,

You want proof of fox's bias. Here :
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc

"The polling, conducted by the Program on International Policy (PIPA) at the University of Maryland and Knowledge Networks, also reveals that the frequency of these misperceptions varies significantly according to individuals’ primary source of news. Those who primarily watch Fox News are significantly more likely to have misperceptions, while those who primarily listen to NPR or watch PBS are significantly less likely."



There are a tons more documented evidence like this if you really want the truth. However most people who watch Fox news don't want the truth. They just want their beliefs and biases affirmed.

lostexpectation

New_Departure06 wrote:

There is undoubtedly a strong strain of anti-Americanism on the Irish left. However I don't think most people are anti-American. I think though that we are anti US bias towards Israel and empathise with the Palestinians in that they are seeking a state and are oppressed like us in a former life - even if their tactics sometimes cross a line into terrorism against civilians unlike our heroic founding fathers and mothers.

for anti-americanism read anti-imperialism...

Hobbes

From now on anyone who disagrees with me is Anti-boards.ie and should be banned from the site. :v:

Calina

People bandying about accusations of anti-Americanism seem to equate America with Bush policies.

I find this difficult to understand. I equate America with the Grand Canyon, Times Square, the Florida Keys. All these are places. How can you morally object to them?

I'm anti-people-who-think-that-America-equals-George-Bush-and-his-team. There seem to be quite a few of them around. I'm anti-George-Bush too, but he won't be around forever. I don't think he is even a good representative of the Republican Party either. On the other hand, I am pro-the-Grand-Canyon-The-Pacific-Coast-the-Rockies and various other places, too many to list. Do you magically go from being anti-American to being pro-American if Hilary Clinton wins the next Presidential?

I've seen Bill O'Reilly in action at various stages. Personally I don't really know in too much detail what his politics are because frankly, I can't get past just how rude the guy seems to be. It's very unprofessional to yell down your interlocutor.

Akrasia

look, 'anti american' is the most stupid thing right wing people call non right wing people/ Even in america, americans who disagree with the war are called 'Anti American' so much so that 'Why do you hate america' has become a joke response to anyone who ever mentions one of the countless (and i do mean countless) reasons there are to despise the Bush administration.

Secondly, Fox news barely qualifies as a news broadcaster. People mention 'Rathergate' as evidence that CBS is equally as dishonest as FOX, but the key difference here is, CBS published a news story as fact when it turned out to be a forgery (they didn't check their facts properly) This is bad when you're a news broadcaster. but Fox deliberately publishes lies and distortions on a routine basis. (i would like to add that all the mainstream U.S. media is guilty of Lies by ommission on a regular basis, but Fox is the only real player that takes a proactive approach to lies and propaganda)

The difference between Fox and the 'liberal media' is while the liberals might make mistakes, Fox does everything deliberately. If there is a lie in a fox news broadcast, it's probably deliberate. There is a documentary about this called 'outfoxed' which is worth watching.

An example of Fox News acting in it's typical mode, is when they buried the story about how Monsanto's Bovine Growth Hormone posed significant health risks including cancer to humans, and the reporters were basically fired when they tried to push the story onto the airwaves. It went to court. Monsanto lost the case but then went to appeal where they won on the grounds that it is not illegal for news broadcasters to lie to the public And they have kept up this policy ever since.


As for Bush, He is the antichrist. He is either a complete idiot and utterly incompetent, or he is the most devious man on this planet (along with the rest of his administration)

mcgarnicle

Disagree with US foreign policy => you are anti-American

Disagree with Israeli foreign policy => you are anti-Semetic

There is nothing new here.

OK a 1 week ban for the two posters on this thread that have called the thread starter a troll.

Whether he is or not is up to the moderators to decide and the report this post function is the way you alert us.

Sir Random

FOX News is the most blatantly biased "news" show on TV.

A News agency should deliver news as impartially as it can, letting the viewer draw conclusions from the facts presented. Fox reporters add their own slant to everything, using 'labels' to identify friend from foe.

So, instead of saying
"Joe Bloggs, manager of CompanyName, has donated $1m to OtherCompany in Iran".

Fox would say:
"Saddam-lover Joe Bloggs, manager of the Anti-American CompanyName, has donated $1m to Bush-Hating OtherCompany in the Terrorist-Regime of Iran".

amp2000

Earthman wrote:

OK a 1 week ban for the two posters on this thread that have called the thread starter a troll.

Whether he is or not is up to the moderators to decide and the report this post function is the way you alert us.

Hold on a sec, the first reply to this thread calling him a troll was by a Moderator

DaSilva

enfant terrible wrote:

Thanks for the specifics DadaKopf.
Try at least watching Fox News some time and you'll see how dumb liberals are, George Clooney,Alec Baldwin etc.
Read Ann Coulter's book if you can bring yourself to do it.
If you are constantly fed one side you will believe it.

I'm sorry but your arguement about listening to Fox News is fair enough, to get both biases in a sense, liberal and conservative media.

But Ann Coulter? Oh Please, she isn't political at all, she is just a wind-up artist.

Diarmuid

amp2000 wrote:

Hold on a sec, the first reply to this thread calling him a troll was by a Moderator

I think he was power trippin so bad he didn't even notice !!

Sleepy

OP, if you want to watch both sides of the argument watch Fox and Al-Jazeera. If you want centrist coverage on the war in Iraq and American politics, watch the BBC.

As for an example of Reilly's blatent inability to be an impartial source of 'news' see his diatribe condemning the BBC for questioning the British government's role in the War on Iraq. To paraphrase him (because I don't memorise the lines of such an idiot) "Which would you rather: an anchorman who will openly question the actions of his commander in chief or one sitting here with the American flag on his lapel".

Sounds like an easy choice to me tbh.

enfant terrible

"But Ann Coulter? Oh Please, she isn't political at all, she is just a wind-up artist."

Fair enough she is OTT but I think she is entertaining.

BuffyBot

Hold on a sec, the first reply to this thread calling him a troll was by a Moderator

OT: The poster isn't the moderator of the politics forum..therefore, he's just another user on this forum.

Hobbes

enfant terrible wrote:

Fair enough she is OTT but I think she is entertaining.

yea I rountinely try to guess what media outlet will fire her. Think shes up to 4 so far.

amp2000

amp2000 wrote:

Hold on a sec, the first reply to this thread calling him a troll was by a Moderator

There are hundreds of mods on boards.ie.
There are only 4 mods of this board,Sceptre,Uberwolf,Gandalf and myself.

Any other mod is just an ordinary user here,the fact they mod their own board(s) is irrelevant-when there is a charter infraction and it comes to our attention,we will take action regardless of whether they are a mod of another board or not.

Now back on topic or rather more to the point this thread better have improved when next I see it or it will be closed.

Diarmuid

Diarmuid wrote:

I think he was power trippin so bad he didn't even notice !!

Indeed.
2 week ban for you

Pazaz 21

Sleepy wrote:

OP, if you want to watch both sides of the argument watch Fox and Al-Jazeera.

I was just about to post that !!

Fox showed tanks rolling into baghdad with nobody firing at anybody, bombs dropping in the night in dramatic fashion, no one was hurt of course,:rolleyes:

On the other end Al - Jazeera showed women and children with limbs missing, lying in hospital beds, or on the side of the street, waiting to die.

I would side with Al - Jazeera, its better to show the truth, no matter how gorey, instead of ignoring it altogether and pretending like it wasn't even happening.

Sand

Anti-Americanism isnt the refusal to watch Fox News tbh. Fox works from the wrong angle - It identifies a Democrat bias in media, so to combat this problem, it decides to be just as biased towards the Republicans. The thought of aiming (at least) through editorial balance (hire an arch Dem and an arch Repub to review coverage and snitch each other out for bias?) for unbiased coverage is apparently discounted as a solution.

I would side with Al - Jazeera, its better to show the truth, no matter how gorey, instead of ignoring it altogether and pretending like it wasn't even happening.

The truth would lie somewhere in between though wouldnt it? If you focus coverage on a particular incident and use that to extrapolate whats "generally" happening your going to end up with a different story than the guy who picks a different incident or angle to focus on.

As for anti-americanism itself, it was best defined (imo) as

an unfavorable predisposition towards the United States, which leads individuals to interpret American actions through negative stereotypes.

which occurs so often, and is so much a part of discourse that its not even noticed these days. The above definition btw is from here, an article on the concept (France focused as the writer is French herself). As an example any

Examples here:

As for Bush, He is the antichrist. He is either a complete idiot and utterly incompetent, or he is the most devious man on this planet (along with the rest of his administration)

American media coverage, especially fox is the most biased and unfair reporting in the world.

Well the first is just...yeah. Its so blatantly ridiculous and OTT that Akrasia wont stand over it if hes asked to. Incompetent/idiotic is arguable of course as Akrasia didnt claim he was *the* stupidest, but anti-christ? the most devious man on the planet? I dont even know where to begin. It does explain though why hundreds of thousands will protest any visit by any American dignitary (There was even some guy protesting in the Paddys Day parade against the US band marching in the parade?!?!) and yet cant find the time to be overly concerned by Chinese government visits, or Russian dignitaries. Clearly the actions of these governments are relatively okay. Even before we discuss the foreign policy of our EU partners, who are seemingly angelic.

The second is equally OTT and untrue. Ask Raul Rivero, who got a 20 year jail term in Cuba for reporting on the Cuba Castro doesnt want his arts student fanclub to know about. Ask Colbert even, who was able to lampoon the Bush to the world with Bush sitting 10 feet from him.

The statement clownbag made is obviously a load of cobblers, but its pretty typical of the complete ****e that pours out of "informed" debate. The US is a police state, its a dictatorship, its system of government isnt democratic, the US is the most racist country in the world, the US is a fundamentalist country etc. If theres a league table in any particular negative attribute then the US leads it according to conventional wisdom.

Neither of these posters would accept theyre anti-american. Why should they, whats remarkably anti-american about negative stereotypes when theyre taken for granted? I saw an article on African aid, where the writer criticised the US for spending 300 million on planting stories favourable to the US in foreign media claiming that if the US spent that money in Africa instead they wouldnt need the propaganda. Thatd be nice to think, but it operates on the principle that the main body of criticism of the US government and culture is reasoned or principled.