timber frame houses

danyosan

I am looking into building a house and was informed about timber frame houses as these are the homes of the future, very eco friendly and cheap to keep warm. Could anyine tell me of irish companies that manufacture these houses. All I've found so far are Scandinavian homes (which to me are very plain looking) and century homes.

The Hill Billy

Here's a few:

Good places to start:
http://www.itfma.ie/ & http://www.irishbuildingindustry.ie/Headings/TimberFrame.htm

Here are a few suppliers:
http://www.timberframe.ie/
http://www.griffnercoillte.ie/
http://www.ijm.ie/
http://www.naturaltimberconstruction.com/home.htm

Viking House

We produce Scandinavian single skin timber-frame Passive houses.
Send on a plan or a photo of a house you like.

www.viking-house.net

danyosan

Thats superb Hill Billy, excellent links. None of those showed up when I googled timber homes. Viking, I'll keep that in mind, got a lot of info to get through now. Thanks again.

jhop

Im from australia, and all the houses there are timber framed, when I cam here, and found the cement blocks everywhere, I assumed they were easier to keep warm. is that not the case?

muffler

Timber framed housing is a bad investment. Blocks and mortar all the way

danyosan

Muffler...why so?

Viking House

Sorry Muffler, I don't agree, I am a builder, we use both block and timber frame systems.
We started Thermal Imaging a few years ago, checking out where each house we built was loosing heat with a Thermal Imaging camera, it is impossible to reach the U-values they quote in the Homebond manual with the partial fill concrete block wall.

Don't just take my word for it, google "Thermal Looping" .
Roadstone even admit the problem themselves in this link http://www.roadstone.ie/products/Blocks/SafeWarm.htm

The Concrete people also say that you get better Thermal Mass with a Concrete house which means that it holds onto the heat better after you turn off the heating. The truth is that a standard concrete block lets out all its accumulated heat in 3 hours, some of the better insulation materials like Wood-fibre and Rockwool actually take in heat and let it out for the next 12-13 hours.

The manufacture of one tonne of Cement releases one tonne of Carbon into the atmosphere contributing the Global Warming.

Building a block wall around Irish timber-frame house defeats the purpose and is done nowhere else in the world.

ednwireland

muffler wrote:

Timber framed housing is a bad investment. Blocks and mortar all the way

i met an architect last year saying that people in the north were been refused mortgages on 20 year old timber frame shouldn't bother the poster though.

the problem seems to be when builders who are used to building block have to do a timber frame and they dont realise how important the seals are betwen concrete and wood to stop the frame rotting.

Viking House just to sya something if your wood comes from scandinavia then the carbon difference would be interesting. concrete is generally locally made hence reducing carbon emissions from transport you cant blindly look at production carbon if your serious you have to look at it from cradle to grave ( like everything)

you can always argue either way with these things

most of the data produced isnt independant its paid for by either the concrete industry or the timber frame industry so generally slants either way.

just make sure its built properly either block or timber frame

Macy

ednwireland wrote:

i met an architect last year saying that people in the north were been refused mortgages on 20 year old timber frame shouldn't bother the poster though.

You can't really extrapolate that out for current builds, when techniques and knowledge should've improved. I mean it's still considered a new way of building, so 20 year old timber frame houses must have been among the first?

sas

muffler wrote:

Timber framed housing is a bad investment. Blocks and mortar all the way

Just read mufflers profile where he puts his occupation down as "Draughtproofing".

If thats what I think it means then surely he has a vested interest in "blocks and mortar" builds. They are far more likely to suffer draughts than timber frame given that timber frames are made under factory controlled conditions.

Incidently I'm in the same boat as the poster, can't decide on whether to build block or timber frame i.e. I'm impartial for now.

Viking House

ednwireland wrote:

Viking House just to sya something if your wood comes from scandinavia then the carbon difference would be interesting. concrete is generally locally made hence reducing carbon emissions from transport you cant blindly look at production carbon if your serious you have to look at it from cradle to grave ( like everything)

This extract is from Construct Ireland an impartial Irish building magazine http://www.constructireland.ie/articles/navan.php

"The fact that we now apparently need four planets to maintain our profligate life style means that if you’re conscientised about your children or your children’s children, you have got to move towards making buildings on the Factor 10 principle—that we use less of everything, much more efficiently. Factor 10 is by no means out of the question. If you look in ‘Green Design; Sustainable Building for Ireland’ you’ll see that locally produced air dried softwood has embodied energy of about 110, on a scale where aluminium is in the region of 75,600, KwHrs / cubic metre and concrete products based on conventional Ordinary Portland Cement and steel (103,000) are up there in the mega numbers".

Imported Scandinavian softwood has an Embodied Energy of 450 on this scale.

muffler

sas wrote:

Just read mufflers profile where he puts his occupation down as "Draughtproofing".

If thats what I think it means then surely he has a vested interest in "blocks and mortar" builds.

Nah, nothing to do with that at all.

I think we could all spend a lot of time debating the pros and cons of timber framed as opposed to blocks and mortars and we would all have our own opinion.
Personally I dont think much of the timber framed housing but Im not going to give all my reasons here but there is one reason I am going to state and its from an independant source.

About 18 months ago I went along to one of the Homebond seminars and 2 things emerged from that session. Firstly the Homebond people only started covering the timber framed housing with their 10 year structural guarantee scheme about 3 or 4 years ago. They were reluctant to do so apparantly.

Secondly they stated that the average life span of a blocks and mortar house was 70 years whereas the average life span of the timber framed house was about 35 years.

Decide yourselves.

CJhaughey

I would disagree with you on the point of lifespan of concrete construction.
How many 70 year old concrete houses are still in use? how many 50 year old houses? how many from only 20 years ago are still habitable?
in many cases the usable life of a concrete structure is actually less than a proper timber framed house.
Homebond is only a joke anyway they are certainly not what I would consider to be a proper certifying firm anyway.

Carb

Why would homebond care if a house lasted 35 years or seventy years. As long as it lasted more than ten years, they would be covered anyway. You'll probably also discover that the reason they were reluctant to cover T/F hosues was because like most other people in the country 4/5 years ago, they knew nothing about it. It's only in recent years where T/F has been adopted by a lot of the large house building companies that they had no other choice but to cover it.

In terms of life span, I've never heard of 35 years. I'm sure there are many houses in Scandinavia, North America, even Scotland which are a lot older than this.

I'm in the middle of a self build, and I chose to go with T/F as it was easier to organise things and schedule tradesmen. I also have UFH on both floors with 2 inches of concrete upstairs providing excellent sound proofing. The reason I mention this, is because the one reason I was not going to use T/F was because I thought I couldn't have concrete upstairs. In fact, it was probably easier.

Muffler - I realise everyone has their own opinon of T/F v block built, and rightly so. Most times people have to agree to disagree. But why post on this thread knocking timber frame if your not going to give your reasons. After alltis is what the OP is looking for.

Danyosan - Are you looking for a T/F company to manufacture a kit from your plans, or are hoping to pick a design from one of the T/F companies.

boomshackala

just back from Germany where I came across a 700 yr old timber house......still inhabited

yop

Have to say the arguement against TF is very weak but until we hear a legitimate reason as to why you would have a concrete house over a TF then making fleeting statements is a bit short.

A number of reasons I could give off the top of my head on the arguement for TF would be , speed of build, definate insulation differences, you will not get a block house to retain heat as much as a TF build.
Cost of heating is way lower in a TF, just ask any heatpump provider, they will always provide a lower KW pump if the house is a TF, saving you heating costs and the the smaller the KW the cheaper the heatpump.

As said about the myths of poor sound insulation and lack of ability to put UFH and concrete upstairs are blown out of the water.
I would not use a TF house built in an estate as an example because from what I can see they are mass produced, badly insulationed and are just a quick solution for the builders.
And of course TF is a more environmentally friendly build.

As for the 35 years life span, let me guess they said that if a block house with a cavity lasts 70 years then if there is only one layer outside the TF then it will only last 35!

danyosan

Carb - havent really decided yet what way we are going to go. Seen some designs that we like, that we'd maybe want to make slight alterations to. Does this add a lot to the price to do this?

Thanks everyone for the comments. Learnt quite a bit from this thread already. Keep em coming folks.

yop

Meant to say Dan, we were same as carb with the UFH installed between battens and then a screed poured between them upstairs. With a 25mm insulation on the upstairs floors and 100mm fibreglass in the ceiling space downstairs we have wrapped each room for heat and sound.

ednwireland

Carb wrote:

. I'm sure there are many houses in Scandinavia, North America, even Scotland which are a lot older than this.

sorry to post again but i thought a lot about this when renovating my houses (one 150+ years old one block 35) years old scandinavia scotland and north america all have warm summers and cold dry winters (snow not rain or sleet or that wet snow ) i personally think this is at the root of timber frames problems

Viking House

I heard recently that Homebond is full of ex CRH employees. So why wouldn't they love concrete.

muffler

Carb wrote:

Why would homebond care if a house lasted 35 years or seventy years. As long as it lasted more than ten years, they would be covered anyway..........................................................

Muffler - But why post on this thread knocking timber frame if your not going to give your reasons. After alltis is what the OP is looking for..

As to homebond caring after 10 years - you are quite right. They dont give a f**k during the 10 years of warranty not to mention after that. But that is my point - they dont care after the 10 years are up but they were giving us the facts as they seen them after conducting studies for a number of years before it.

Your other point about me knocking timber framed is a bit out. I have indicated that MY OPINION is that blocks and mortar is better. I have also indicated Homebonds opinions on timber framed houses and if anyone has a problem with that they can take it up with Homebond

AJL

Danyosan,

Another type of house to consider is a SIP house. Google Kingspan tek. There is a company in Wexford www.ttfc.ie as well as century homes that are supplying this type of house. Just ready for them to manufacture my house (ttfc in wexford).

Viking house, what is your reasoning for saying putting block around a TF house is not a good idea. I myself was going to go with a special render system on the outside of my house. I was advised by a number of people that because of the damp climate and to protect my SIP house (or TF for that matter) a block on the outside with a 50mm cavity was the way to go.

danyosan

AJL, was talking to a guy in the know last night, that is building his own timber frame house. He had a stall at the sustainable ireland exhibition in the RDS last summer, next to a century homes rep.He started talking to him off the cuff (the rep not knowing that he was building his own tf house) and he said that there homes were rubbish compared to other tf companies. They're still better than bricks, but nowhere near as good as the rest. Found this interesting as I really liked the design of there homes, but he said stay away from them.

Carb

muffler wrote:

Personally I dont think much of the timber framed housing but Im not going to give all my reasons here but there is one reason I am going to state and its from an independant source.

I don't think my comment was out one bit. You made one generalised statement about T/F houses been a bad investment and then proceeded to give one very weak reason.

I remember reading articles about homebond before they started covering T/F houses and it wasn't that they were reluctant to cover T/F houses, they were reluctant to even look at the possibility of covering them. It seems to me that if they were happy that T/F houses would last more than ten years, but were still reluctant to cover them, then perhaps they were not as independent as you seem to believe. It's strange they're not making statements like this now that the large home builders are building thousands of timberframe houses every year. My bank has given me a 35 year mortgage on my timberframe. I doubt if they would this if it only had a lifespan on 35 years.

As I've said earlier, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but most will try to back it up. You said you've got other reasons, what exactly are these?

Viking House

We put moisture proof plasterboard on the outside of our Timberframe and glue a layer of rigid Paroc Granitewool onto the moisture-board.
We plaster directly onto the Granitewool using a fibreglass-mesh supported breathable mineral plaster. An outside wall in not necessary.
This system has been certified in all Scandinavian and Central European countries for the last 30 years while we've been struggling with cavity wall systems.
In the south of Finland near the Baltic sea and the west coast of Norway they actually get more inches of rain than Ireland plus 100 days of snow on top of that.
They get many days of rain-freeze-thaw cycles which is extremly hard on buildings.

In Ireland it is possible to make hay and dry clothes outside, breathable buildings also dry out well in our climate.

We built a house near the west coast of Ireland and cladded it with overlapping wooden Pine boards, we expected the wood to settle down to a moisture content of 16%. We tested the cladding last year and it had an unbelievable 8% moisture level. The wind blowing in from the Atlantic dried out the cladding to the same level that it would be inside a well heated house.

My neighbour makes furniture and he always uses 10 year old wood which he dries outside under a few sheets of galvanise steel.
In 10 years he says that Pine gets as hard as Oak and Oak gets as hard as Mahogony because it breathes and dries out.

The damp Cement block built around Irish Timber frame houses keeps moisture levels high in the wood and stops it drying out properly.

muffler

Viking House wrote:

This system has been certified in all Scandinavian and Central European countries

Has it been certified in Ireland (i.e. Agrement Cert?)

Viking House

The system has DIN certification in Germany which is a lot stricter than the Irish Agrement Cert.
It has SF certification in Sweeden.
It has CE certification which superseeds the IAG cert.(They have to accept it)
Ireland actually has no test centre for these systems and relys on certification from other countries.
This was how the Poroton block got its Irish Agreement Cert.

danyosan

Viking house, do you provide the entire kit for a house or just the frame and exterior walls?

Viking House

We supply the entire kit Dynosan.

AJL

hi Viking

Can you send me the website link or more info on this system

Viking House

www.viking-house.net

danyosan

Viking, How would I go about getting plans drawn up? I've been looking at other sites which give standard drawings that you can pick from, how do you go about it? Very interested in the insulation material you use.

Viking House

We have some house plans available but they are very Scandinavian looking.
You said earlier in this post that there were a few plans that you liked!
There are also plans that you can buy from the internet.
Go for a drive next Sunday and take your digital camera with you.
Do you have planning permission? If not maybe the easiest option is to hire an Architect.
Send me an email and I can send you on some photos of houses and plans.

mjffey

CJhaughey wrote:

I would disagree with you on the point of lifespan of concrete construction.
How many 70 year old concrete houses are still in use? how many 50 year old houses? how many from only 20 years ago are still habitable?
in many cases the usable life of a concrete structure is actually less than a proper timber framed house.
Homebond is only a joke anyway they are certainly not what I would consider to be a proper certifying firm anyway.

B******t. have you ever been outside Ireland????? Concrete houses can easliy stand in good condition for more then 200 years. It's not only about the material used, but about the people who live in it. Here in Ireland you just leave the house and build a new one 20 yards further up the road instead of doing the house up and keep it to standard. That has nothing to do with the quality of the material used!

sakigrant

ednwireland wrote:

sorry to post again but i thought a lot about this when renovating my houses (one 150+ years old one block 35) years old scandinavia scotland and north america all have warm summers and cold dry winters (snow not rain or sleet or that wet snow ) i personally think this is at the root of timber frames problems

I'm from Scotland and they're predominantly building timber frame houses - have been since the 80's. I wish we had warm summers and cold dry winters in Scotland - that's the first I've heard of it! I'm from the Outer Hebrides where it's quite often very damp and wet in the summer, the winter is very mild due to the Gulf Stream but we get a huge amount of rain, no snow but lots of sleet - and that's true for the whole of the west coast of Scotland and the Northern Isles. True - the east coast is a lot drier and colder. Timber frame houses have become much more popular and have proved resilient to these conditions, so there is absolutely no reason for there to be any problems in the much more favourable Irish climate.

danyosan

Viking House wrote:

We have some house plans available but they are very Scandinavian looking.
You said earlier in this post that there were a few plans that you liked!
There are also plans that you can buy from the internet.
Go for a drive next Sunday and take your digital camera with you.
Do you have planning permission? If not maybe the easiest option is to hire an Architect.
Send me an email and I can send you on some photos of houses and plans.

email sent.

Viking House

Hi Sakigrant

Is timberframe site built or factory built in Scotland?

frankie2shoes

viking house
am very impressed with your system of rendering onto timberframe buildings. is there an extended cure time for the render as opposed to rendering onto block?

Viking House

Hi Frankie

We usually glue on the insulation, put on the first coat of plaster with the fibreglass-mesh and second coat of plaster the first day.
On day two we put on the primer and the finish coat of pre coloured plaster.
Its dry the evening of the second day.

sakigrant

Viking House wrote:

Hi Sakigrant

Is timberframe site built or factory built in Scotland?

Hi Viking House

I'm from Scotland but living in Cork now. We got a factory built house down here from Kenmare Timber frame - very happy with it - extremely warm. We're south facing so our heat is primarily passive solar. Only need the oil for hot water and I'm looking in to solar at the moment so we can hopefully stop using the oil for that. Originally were looking at Scan Home - higher spec. but was outside our budget.

In Scotland they're predominantly factory built - usually called kit homes. I don't know anyone back home who has built with blocks in the last fifteen years. Just too expensive to heat in the Scottish climate - and that's not going to get any cheaper in the next few years.....

Viking House

Who are you buying the Solar kit from?

Maud

Hi Viking

How much insulation is in the walls of your standard timber-frame house?

frankie2shoes

hi sakrigrant
you mentioned that you used kenmare timber frame in your build. how did you find them. were they efficent? did they come in on time and on budget? am glad to hear that the insulation is keeping the place toasty. would you recommend ktf?

sakigrant

Viking House wrote:

Who are you buying the Solar kit from?

Hi Viking House,

Was looking at a company called solaris: http://homepage.eircom.net/~solaris/index.html
My mate got their system installed and is running well. Buy their are a few interesting developments at the moment so may wait a year or so:
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2006/02/21/solar_power_using_an_alloy_film_better_than_silicon.htm

sakigrant

frankie2shoes wrote:

hi sakrigrant
you mentioned that you used kenmare timber frame in your build. how did you find them. were they efficent? did they come in on time and on budget? am glad to hear that the insulation is keeping the place toasty. would you recommend ktf?

Hi Frankie2shoes,

KTF were great. Very professional and efficient. They had the timber frame ready for me on time but my groundwork wasn't finished. Was no problem to delay them 2 weeks until I got the slab poured. Came in on time and budget and were a higher spec. than some other timber frame companies. The timber they used for the studs was excellent, all the trades that came in after commented on it. The quotes we got were all pretty comparable, the main reason I went with KTF was the proximity to the site - only 30 miles, I thought if we did have any problems they wouldn't be too far away to meet up with.

danyosan

sakigrant...pm sent

Viking House

Hi Maud

We use 250mm of Paroc in the walls.

Maud

What is Paroc?

Viking House

http://www.viking-house.net/poroton-and-paroc

jonnie45

On the pros and cons of timber frame durability and a good trawl through forums on this subject two arguments stood out for me - one bad and one good.

poor argument - A fair few folk cite 300 year old timber framed buildings as proof positive whilst ignoring the differences in lumber dimension and also type of timber used. Pine is not just pine - any Scandanavian will tell you that conifer woods vary greatly in durability also dependent on speed of growth. Please no proof positive without mention of timber type and quality - you cannot throw oak and pine into the same pot or fast grown pine vs good quality scandanavian conifer woods, some conifer woods are inherently more durable than others and some have outstanding weather durability. Also bear in mind that 300 year old timber framed buildings may have received substantial amounts of TLC and conservation - you cannot tell just be looking how much work has or has not gone into keeping the building going. Also bear in mind that some cultures are just better at looking after wood than others - cost of external paint for wooden summer houses in Denmark is prohibitive but the quality is outstanding - you cannot get paint that good in other parts - the knowledge on how to care for the building was not learnt overnight.

good argument - A simple argument someone made that roof trusses are mostly made from fast grown softwoods and for the large parts truss roofs seem to be a trusted and reliable construction method so perhaps comparable with a timber frame that has been encased with a substance equal to roofing tiles in terms of weather protection? Some additional concerns of wood close to the ground whereas a roof is generally not subject to rising damp but overall the "roof truss" argument makes sense to me.