being a doctor

sportswear

hey was just thinkin about this as i am sitting in the library.

i'm in 3rd year medicine and i just realised that i have gone through three years of study and i have absolutly no idea about some of the very basic things about the work conditions etc i will be doing in 3 years.

so i have some questions about it for any doctor or otherwise that might be kind enough to answer them....:)

1. what are the hours of work, as an intern? do they get shorter as you become s.h.o.? does this include being on call?

2.do you start work at wierd and wonderful times? does this vary between surgery and medicine? do you get weekends off? any holidays during the year?

3.if you are on call are you sleeping in the hospital???

4. how much do you get paid as an intern ? are you paid per hour? do you get overtime? does this go up much as you advance in years??? does it vary between medicine and surgery or which hospital you work in etc?


thanks!!!!!!!!!!

DrIndy

1. what are the hours of work, as an intern? do they get shorter as you become s.h.o.? does this include being on call?

I work on average 70 hours per week - this varies between 60 and 80 hours occasionally going to 90 and 100 hours per week.

We are officially rostered to work from 9-5 during weekdays and 9-4 at weekends.

Actual hours depend on service you are in and the busy-ness of that service.

Surgical firms always start at 7-7:30am, medical start at 8-9am. You finish work when you finish work usually 6-7pm, sometimes later.

They may get shorter as an SHO, BUT THEY SHOULDN'T(!), as an SHO you deal with less paperwork crap and more sick people, however if you subscribe to the "team" philosophy then the team leaves work together, not the intern being left behind to finish crap.

Hours quoted include on call. On call depends on the rota, generally large hospitals are 1-in-7 to 1-in-9 nights on call, but smaller hospitals are mor frequent ranging from 1-in-4 to 1-in-7, however, smaller regional hospitals have less patients and so its much less busy.

2.do you start work at wierd and wonderful times? does this vary between surgery and medicine? do you get weekends off? any holidays during the year?

Start at 7:30 currently as I am doing surgery. It does vary between specialities and between medicine and surgery. I get most weekends off and then only work one of the weekend days if on. We get 6 weeks holidays per year with 2 weeks of this coming from being rostered for work on a public holiday and us getting a free day off back in lieu.

3.if you are on call are you sleeping in the hospital???

Depends. Sometimes, no, sometimes, 8 hours. You get lucky.

In general if you are on call as a pair, you can swap bleeps and get 4-5 hours protected bleep free sleep in a large hospitals. In smaller hospitals, then you may get more as there is simply less work to do. As a medical SHO in St.James, you get no sleep at all.

4. how much do you get paid as an intern ? are you paid per hour? do you get overtime? does this go up much as you advance in years??? does it vary between medicine and surgery or which hospital you work in etc?

Salary is from the DOH and is the same everywhere. An intern is paid roughly a gross salary of €30,000 per year with the same again in overtime. Not bad for first year out of college, but very substantially less than our equally qualified colleagues in other professions (equal years in training and equal difficulty of entry) such as accountancy where they are paid 3 times our salary.

don't do it for the money.

Pay increments are about 5% extra per year plus index linked increases. There are big jumps up from intern to SHO and from SHO to Registrar.

Faith

Dear god, I'm starting to rethink this crazy idea of mine of doing a post grad midicine degree! Biology might not be that great, but I doubt there's 100 hour weeks involved :eek:

sportswear

thanks indy. that was a great help. for anyone that might be interested there is a the following debate on tonight:

Working Time Debate - "Doctors' New Working Hours: A better health service or a medical emergency?"


Med Soc has organsied a debate on the above topic, to be held on Tuesday, May 2nd, at 7.30 pm in Theatre L, Arts Block, Belfield. The debate will be chaired by George Hook (Newstalk 106 & RTE Rugby), and the impressive list of speakers include:

Mary Harney TD, Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children

Dr Mick Molloy, NCHD Chair, Irish Medical Organisation

Dr John Hillery, Consultant Psychiatrist, President, Irish Medical Council

Mr Stephen McMahon, Chairman, Irish Patients' Association

Professor John Crown, Consultant Oncologist, St Vincents' University Hospital

Dr Philip Nolan, Registrar, University College Dublin


This event is the first in a number of years that has been aimed at both doctors and medical students. The debate promises to be stimulating, and we hope all Med Soc members can attend.

Admission free, All welcome!

eth0_

DrIndy wrote:

I work on average 70 hours per week - this varies between 60 and 80 hours occasionally going to 90 and 100 hours per week.

Do you mean you are actually *working* for 70 hours or does that include time spent sleeping in the on-call room etc?

DrIndy

Working, I get about 4 hours sleep maximum when on call so 66 hours out of 70 hours per week working.

sportswear

and what do you think indy of the new EU working time directive?

it will reduce hours but apparently prolong training and dramatically cut pay......

DrIndy

when it works, it works...... don't hold your breath.

ergo

interesting thread

not many people realise the crap basic pay that doctors receive, especially considering that you'll have 5 or 6 years in college and then start on €15 per hour

below is some of the pay scale available from the IMO website http://www.imo.ie

Intern €31,408.00 ie €15.43 per hour
SHO1 €36,396.00
2 €38,459.00
3 €41,542.00

Registrar/SHO 1/5 €47,613.00
2/6 €49,628.00
3/7 €51,595.00

SpR 1 €57,002.00
2 €58,389.00

so yes, for interns (and most NCHDs) to make their money they have to work the hours, the most generous call frequency to hope for as an intern would be one in 10 nights on, more likely between 1 in 5 and 1 in 7.

taking overtime into account an intern can expect to gross from €45k to €60k

what makes it bearable I suppose is that it does go up with each passing year and relatively predictably, unlike many jobs where there may not be a significant increase guaranteed at any point in the future

but, what you lose out on is the quality of life aspect, you're working 90 hours, how many left in the week apart from for sleeping.....?
and of course the drinking and socialising, which, from the junior doctors I know, it's a pretty good social life, and don't forget the 6 weeks holidays a year so it's not all bad news


as for EWTD, well, at the moment we don't have enough doctors and a major sticking point is going from the basic working week (which is 39 hours , 9 to 5 Mon to Thurs and 9 to 4 on Fridays) to more of a shift work pattern, there's talk of "5 over 7" whereby you could be rostered to work any 5 days of 7, doesn't sound very appealing if your "weekend" is coming on a Tuesday and Wednesday

another downside to this is that you would get less exposure to consultant-led teaching because you will be in the hospital when they are not eg weekends and evenings, it's all a bit complicated

also if they reduce the hours they'll have to increase the basic pay because as you can see from above, they wouldn't go far in Ireland, basic salaries as listed above, all in highly intelligent motivated people who could be guaranteed much higher salaries outside medicine in IRL or in medicine in, for example, the US

sportswear

interesting......

to be honest i think i would prefer to work the hours and get reasonable pay(maybe i'll think differently when i am actually working!), and training. considering the workload and the difficulty of getting the degree its definately not enough, although i was never in medicine for the money.

also another question.....

is there much textbook learning required to study for the exams i hear we have to do after we are finished ie for SHO registrar. If we have days off are they actually days off or is study still required after med school is left????

if one wants to do a speciality or somthing do you have to reseach, publish papers, study in your time off etc???