Cash game - Hand Analysis

opr

This is from a live cash game other night.

Its PL 1-2

I have about 700 and villian had about 360.

I have just been moved table a short while ago. The only read i have on villian is that i think he is probably a bit weak but solid.

I get dealt QQ in early position and raise to 10 folded to villian who raises to 35 folded round to me and i raise to 120. Villian Flat calls.

Now at this stage my thinking is KK and he is afraid of AA so thats why he flatted called because i can't see him calling with anything less.

The only thing that bothers me is i have raised about 6 of the last 8 hands and won nearly them all on the flop without having to show my cards so i am worried he had called with something else thinking i am on the steal.

Villian now has 240 left.

Flop comes 10 10 X .. .. .. .. think it was a 7.

What now ??

Cantab.

opr wrote:

This is from a cash game in the fitz the other night.

Its PL 1-2

I have about 700 and villian had about 360.

I have just been moved table a short while ago. The only read i have on villian is that i think he is probably a bit weak but solid.

I get dealt QQ in early position and raise to 10 folded to villian who raises to 35 folded round to me and i raise to 120. Villian Flat calls.

Now at this stage my thinking is KK and he is afraid of AA so thats why he flatted called because i can't see him calling with anything less.

The only thing that bothers me is i have raised about 6 of the last 8 hands and won nearly them all on the flop without having to show my cards so i am worried he had called with something else thinking i am on the steal.

Villian now has 240 left.

Flop comes 10 10 X .. .. .. .. think it was a 7.

What now ??

All in.

Villian either has a nice pair (doesn't have to be KK or AA) or else he's taking you for a ride cos he thinks you're bluffing.

QQ is a good hand and with that flop you've got to think you're ahead. You might even hit a house.

Bear in mind he might think you've a 10.

fuzzbox

Dont 3-bet QQ preflop Vs a solid player.

opr

fuzzbox wrote:

Dont 3-bet QQ preflop Vs a solid player.

That makes no sense in this situation ?? Ok he shows strenght with the re-raise but i want to find out how strong his range is pretty large at this point (Dont think a solid player would re-raise with only KK and AA) ... So if its not a nice flop i am lost in the hand.

I raised again to try and gauge how strong he was and think it was the correct thing to do to find out what i am up against ?

RoundTower

OK, so he wouldn't only reraise with KK or AA. But will he call you with JJ when you put in the third raise? If not then no good can come of your reraise and you should be check/folding now.

opr

RoundTower wrote:

OK, so he wouldn't only reraise with KK or AA. But will he call you with JJ when you put in the third raise? If not then no good can come of your reraise and you should be check/folding now.

Things is because of the image i have at the table i think he might call with less that KK or AA. Also he may be solid but i don't think he is very good so another reason he will call with less than AA KK.

fuzzbox

opr wrote:

That makes no sense in this situation ?? Ok he shows strenght with the re-raise but i want to find out how strong his range is pretty large at this point (Dont think a solid player would re-raise with only KK and AA) ... So if its not a nice flop i am lost in the hand.

I raised again to try and gauge how strong he was and think it was the correct thing to do to find out what i am up against ?

Firstly lets address the "I raised again to try and guage how strong he was". He called ..... what did you find out? How much did it cost you? What are you planning to do with this information?

Secondly - its not about your hand being better than his, its about your hand being better than his when he calls your 3-bet.
If you want him to fold, then the strength of your hand has no bearing on the situation, as you are bluffing. You are better off bluffing with 72o than you are bluffing with QQ, which is a far stronger hand.

Now here you are - out of position, with lots of cash in the middle and you are kindof obliged to shovel the rest in, even though you are most likely beat ... if villain is as solid as you believe.

Im not suggesting that you would get away from QQ on such a board all the time ... but you have to give your opponent a chance to bluff (with JJ and 99 and AK).

RoundTower

opr wrote:

Things is because of the image i have at the table i think he might call with less that KK or AA. Also he may be solid but i don't think he is very good so another reason he will call with less than AA KK.

OK -- in that case it's more or less up to you. If you think this guy is bad enough to get all his chips in with say 88 here then go for it. Bet now. If he was more solid and needed a big hand to go this far then you are probably in trouble and have to check and fold. My standard in that game against an unknown would be to go broke here, it's only because of your "solid" read that I say anything different.

fuzzbox

Yeah - one minute the villain is solid ... the next he is a bad player.

Make your mind up.

Hectorjelly

an easy way to look at it is, if you will never get called by a worse hand, then you are effectivly bluffing. And there must be a more profitable way to play QQ than trying to get KK to fold preflop. When you raise you get JJ and worse to fold, but AA/KK arent going anywhere.

opr

fuzzbox wrote:

Yeah - one minute the villain is solid ... the next he is a bad player.

Make your mind up.

Why are you being so hostile. Sorry if i offended you ..... i am still new to most of the poker lingo stuff.

When i said soild i meant he is solid as in he knows the game and is not terrible and can play his hand ok ... but i dont think much of him. I also stated in my orginal post i thought he was weak .... i have seen him fold hands were i think he was ahead but the size of the bet has put him off.

Sorry i didn't know the use of the word solid mean an extremely good poker player.

Oh and by the way i do now agree with what your saying but as it turn out i may have lost all my money with this play anyway.

opr

Hectorjelly wrote:

an easy way to look at it is, if you will never get called by a worse hand, then you are effectivly bluffing. And there must be a more profitable way to play QQ than trying to get KK to fold preflop. When you raise you get JJ and worse to fold, but AA/KK arent going anywhere.

Yeah this is the same as what roundtower said and i agree with you both but as for reasons above i think he will get it in the middle with less.

Anyway i am not two worried about my 3 bet here

What would you have done on the flop ?

Hectorjelly

opr wrote:

What would you have done on the flop ?

Well if I put him on AA/KK Im check folding, if I think theres even a small (25% or so) chance Im ahead im putting all my chips in the middle.

bubbleking

im check-raising/folding here depending on the size of the villains bet. if the villain checks and the turn is a blank id push then. chances are you are ahead at this point unless youv just been traped:eek:

opr

I did check and villian checked turn was a Jack ...

Norwich Fan Rob

well now u are only beating an awfully played AK.
in a cash game, it would be unusual for villian to make it 35, then call 120 with anything less than JJ regardless of whether or not he thinks u are at it.

I dont like the re raise to 120 out of position pre flop much, He will fold a lot of hands u want him to call with, like AQ, JJ, TT (well he should anyway).

If i was him, and i had AA, i flat call the 120, so as to not give away my hand completely, and try and get u in on this flop. (which is a good one for AA/KK)

opr

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

well now u are only beating an awfully played AK.
in a cash game, it would be unusual for villian to make it 35, then call 120 with anything less than JJ regardless of whether or not he thinks u are at it.

I dont like the re raise to 120 out of position pre flop much, He will fold a lot of hands u want him to call with, like AQ, JJ, TT (well he should anyway).

If i was him, and i had AA, i flat call the 120, so as to not give away my hand completely, and try and get u in on this flop. (which is a good one for AA/KK)

Ok can we stop killing my 3 bet ... . .. . . . . . Realise completly now why this is a bad play ...... i posted to learn

opr

Just in case anyone wondered he did have pocket Jacks

fuzzbox

opr wrote:

Just in case anyone wondered he did have pocket Jacks

opr - well then 3-betting this guy seems reasonable preflop, but push the flop for sure.

If you 3-bet and he calls, and you then get scared that he has AA/KK, then you should not 3-bet, as its a -EV bet (if he will only call you when he has AA/KK).

If you got all-in on this particular turn card ... then that is a bit counter-intuitive, as now AA+KK+JJ+TT all beat you, and you only beat a missed AK, that will almost certainly fold to your bet.

If you check - his check the flop prolly shows that he doesnt intend to bluff, so you should fold to his bet ... horrible as it may seem.

I would probably call his reraise, and check/raise all-in on the flop.
I have no doubt that the result would be the same, but I would have given him a chance to bluff his AK/AQ/JJ/99 etc.

opr

fuzzbox wrote:

opr - well then 3-betting this guy seems reasonable preflop, but push the flop for sure.

If you 3-bet and he calls, and you then get scared that he has AA/KK, then you should not 3-bet, as its a -EV bet (if he will only call you when he has AA/KK).

If you got all-in on this particular turn card ... then that is a bit counter-intuitive, as now AA+KK+JJ+TT all beat you, and you only beat a missed AK, that will almost certainly fold to your bet.

If you check - his check the flop prolly shows that he doesnt intend to bluff, so you should fold to his bet ... horrible as it may seem.

I would probably call his reraise, and check/raise all-in on the flop.
I have no doubt that the result would be the same, but I would have given him a chance to bluff his AK/AQ/JJ/99 etc.

Thanks for all your help Fuzzbox i completely get what your are saying now.

I checked cause i thought again he was weak and he would check behind me if he hadn't hit that way i would know i was ahead and would push the turn ...... think i was unlucky to see a jack cause it would have worked perfectly if this had not come. Still not the point i realise why the 3 bet was a bad idea against a better player and even in this situation if i think it is a good idea .......... I WAS MENTAL NOT TO PUSH THAT FLOP

fuzzbox

If he was weak (like AK/AQ/AJ etc), then you would give him a free card on the flop. This could be a disaster.

Also, if he was weak, yet had some b@lls, then he would shove the flop and you would fold the best hand. This is also a disaster.

Still - its an interesting hand, and generated a good discussion.

RoundTower

opr wrote:

Just in case anyone wondered he did have pocket Jacks

We knew.