Right or wrong - and ruling?

MGrah

Playing in freeroll last night, down to approx 25 from starting 65, the following happens. Afterwards I was happy enough with my decision, but thinking back this morning I'm not so sure whether I should have let this go.

Blinds are 3k, 6k I have approx 30k before posting the BB (well above average believe it or not). UTG pushes for 26k. It's folded around to me in the BB. I am about to muck my A6 when UTG mucks his cards and starts pulling his chips back in. I say to him that he has mucked and by rights loses the hand explaining to him that I haven't acted and so he has effectively folded (cards had hit the muck, but were easily identifiable). He seemed like he was going to accept this when I had a pang of consience and told him I was going to fold anyway and allowed him to take the pot. No one else at the table raised an objection and it was let go. Now I know I did the gentlemanly (and some would say stupid thing) but thinking back I don't think I had to right not to take the guys chips as it obviously affects everyone else in the game and so was not really my decision.

Any thoughts? (besides the berating I am sure to get for not being cold blooded, but it was a freeroll). The other thing I was wondering was whether he should have been able to play the board seen as he had mucked his cards, but could not be raised out of the pot as he was all in. i.e. if a straight or flush hit the board should the pot have been split? At the time I would have just taken his chips (obviously unless he called for a ruling).

roryc

afaik he gets to play the board, and while what you did was 'gentlemanly' (and stooopid!), it is still against the rules and DOES affect play.

Chances are you would have knocked him out if he was playing the board, meaning all the others would be one closer to the money (ticket in this case). So as you can see, although you were the nice guy here, either move will affect play, and going by the rules, his hand is mucked.

NickyOD

I'd have awarded you the pot since you are the last player standing as the only one still with cards. When I'm watching or dealing the cash game at the club I always warn players never to muck their hand until the pot has been passed to them. i.e. "How can I award the hand to you, you don't have any cards, he has cards, he wins!!!"

Goodluck2me

be sure to introduce yourself if your playing the 270 game tonight! i guess you did the right thing, but i guess if your sitting on 5K UTG+1 with 6K comin next round your not goin to be happy...

MGrah

roryc wrote:

afaik he gets to play the board, and while what you did was 'gentlemanly' (and stooopid!), it is still against the rules and DOES affect play.

Chances are you would have knocked him out if he was playing the board, meaning all the others would be one closer to the money (ticket in this case). So as you can see, although you were the nice guy here, either move will affect play, and going by the rules, his hand is mucked.

I think you're probably right Rory - but here's one to throw a spanner in, if he's entitled to play the board, and I only have my blind in i.e. haven't matched his bet, amn't I entitled to fold? and he would win the pot as no one matched his bet?

Edit to add that this may be horrible etiquette, but at least within the rules?

Shortstack

If it was at one of my tournaments then the player who mucked his cards would have to play the board.

Goodluck2me

good point, you could easily fold, just tell the tabel you had 2-3 or the like?

White Knight

I was about to start a thread about the following situation which has similar attributes. (I think have following details right but stand to be corrected)

It occured in Irish Open main event when down to last 5 tables. Preflop there was a bet, a raise all in and a re raise all in. The person who made the original bet folded and as the chips were being counted out it was realised that the re raiser cards had been mucked/taken by the dealer.

The ruling by the TD was that the bet had to stand even though the original raiser had declared that the reraiser could have his chips returned to him. The TD confirmed this as there cannot be a precedent where one player allows the bending of a rule and the same thing happens later in the tournament and another player is not so gracious. Tough way to lose 75%-80% of your chips in a €3,200 event.

The main point here is it is on the onus of the player to protect his/her own cards at all times.

However ther TD then left the table and the dealer did not deal a flop? i was bemused at the time ... should/could the board not play?

DeVore

This is one of those rules areas that is:
1. incredibly ill-defined.
2. badly handled almost every time I have seen it.

I saw that hand in the Open and I'd have been pretty peeved myself. The player who's cards were taken wasnt in seat 1 or 9 either! This is a problem with badly trained dealers who, frankly, shouldnt be dealing big tournaments.

I dont have a problem with trainee dealers dealing even tournaments like the 250 but in the 1k+ tournaments they should really make sure that all dealers are professionals. I've corrected a good number of them in the last 6months and its something that greatly worries me if the dealer doesnt know what he's doing properly. Its quite uncommon but more common in the big tournies where there are a lot of tables.

Personally I would have called his bet and mucked (having checked that the, imho, correct ruling is applied that the pot be split!).

DeV.

cooker3

On a similar point just say player A raises and Player B is thinking and says No which makes player A believe that he is folding and throws his cards to the muck but then player B goes I never said I was going to fold.
What would be ruling for this?

fixer

I've always played it that you must declare that you are playing the board, so mucking without that declaration is just a fold.

Waylander

I would have thought that he plays the board. I do not think I would have let him take the pot down, as it was himself who mucked his cards and not the dealer. It is his own responsibility to know how many players are involved in a hand.

patmac

On a similar note, playing a small pub game last night blinds 200/400(chips) 3 players utg makes it 800 SB calls puts him all in then utg shows AK before BB moves SB objects (has A9), cue pandamonium, whats the ruling?

fixer

some places play UTG's hand is dead and chips forfeit to the pot. Other places play it that he can only call on all further streets, he cannot raise (assuming this a genuine accident and not a malicious intent to keep BB out).

handsfree

fair play, I think you did the right thing because the lad was probably just learning and it is a freeroll after all. If he did it again take his chips