IT midlife career crisis

dvince1

I was wondering if there are others in a similar situation to myself.

I'm coming up on 40 and I've worked for 13+ years in various software
roles (mostly C/Java/UNIX) and I guess about 3-4 years ago or so I
took my "foot off the gas" and probably didn't spend as much energy
in developing my career path and getting myself into roles where
I'd get exposed to the more mainstream software dev technologies,
eg, web services, SOA, J2EE, .net, enterprise software development.
This seems to have left me quite exposed in terms of getting back
on the rails so as to speak.l

I've relocated from Dublin to the West and what I'm seeing all the time
are roles suitable for grads with 2-4 years experience in the hot
technologies (eg, Struts, .NET, C-sharp, J2EE, Oracle/JDBC) and
for gurus with 10+ yrs experience proven with a lot of customer
facing,etc. I don't seem to fit into either of those boxes. In reality
I should be at the latter level and I have the potential to be there
but I'm realistically going to need to take 2 steps back to take
a few steps forward - so as to speak.

I've relocated to the West and although we are financially secure
(my wife being the main earner) I am disillusioned with the IT arena
because I seem to have got left on the shelf and finding it tricky
to get back on the IT wagon because of the more limited options
in Connaught and the fact that I can't seem to market myself
at the right pitch in the career ladder. Doing a course in college
is something I'm looking into as a stop gap measure but I know in
my heart that employers value on the job work much more than
what any course will deliver and having been on the other side
of the interview table I'd say they'd find it odd that someone at
40 would go back to college to re-validate their skills. What I'm
saying in essence is I think there is a subtle and undeliberate
ageist attitude which pervades and I've heard as much from
one honest recruitment consultant who told me that a prospective
employer wanted younger folks using the phrase "harder to
teach an old dog new tricks".

Anyone got any advice/ perspectives. I've thought of going to
a career counsellor.

<dvince>

DOLEMAN

Do you have a degree? Why not get a phd and become a lecturer?

PS going back to college is only odd if you think it is!

dvince1

DOLEMAN wrote:

Do you have a degree? Why not get a phd and become a lecturer?

PS going back to college is only odd if you think it is!

I've thought about the PhD route alright. I have to say I am sceptical
about the actual openings in lecturing in the ICT area. I've chatted
about a year ago or so to an old college friend who is a lecturer in
one of the Institutes of Technology. The reality is that the number
of students taking tech/IT courses has dropped ever since the
IT bubble burst and it coincided with those courses having taken
in new blood lecturers around 1999-2002. I've watched that space
for about 2-3 yrs and I've noticed very little openings for computing/IT
lecturers in the West of Ireland (same in other regions, I guess).
Colleges fund the teaching of courses which have the biggest intake.
IT has suffered in this respect.

My feeling is that it is naive to think that a PhD is a sure thing pathway
to lecturing in IT. In Eddie Hobbs speak "Show me the jobs" is my motto.
If I could see there were openings in that arena I'd be jumping on the
bandwagon to get myself qualified even further to avail of the opportunities.

I even thought of going back to real basics and seeing if I could
teach in one of those ECDL/basic IT private training companies but
that also looks to be a saturated market and I'm not necessarily
best suited to (excuse my term) dumbing down of my tech skills
to deliver such courses.

newestUser

dvince1 wrote:

I was wondering if there are others in a similar situation to myself.

I'm coming up on 40 and I've worked for 13+ years in various software
roles (mostly C/Java/UNIX) and I guess about 3-4 years ago or so I
took my "foot off the gas" and probably didn't spend as much energy
in developing my career path and getting myself into roles where
I'd get exposed to the more mainstream software dev technologies,
eg, web services, SOA, J2EE, .net, enterprise software development.
This seems to have left me quite exposed in terms of getting back
on the rails so as to speak.l

I've relocated from Dublin to the West and what I'm seeing all the time
are roles suitable for grads with 2-4 years experience in the hot
technologies (eg, Struts, .NET, C-sharp, J2EE, Oracle/JDBC) and
for gurus with 10+ yrs experience proven with a lot of customer
facing,etc. I don't seem to fit into either of those boxes. In reality
I should be at the latter level and I have the potential to be there
but I'm realistically going to need to take 2 steps back to take
a few steps forward - so as to speak.

I've relocated to the West and although we are financially secure
(my wife being the main earner) I am disillusioned with the IT arena
because I seem to have got left on the shelf and finding it tricky
to get back on the IT wagon because of the more limited options
in Connaught and the fact that I can't seem to market myself
at the right pitch in the career ladder. Doing a course in college
is something I'm looking into as a stop gap measure but I know in
my heart that employers value on the job work much more than
what any course will deliver and having been on the other side
of the interview table I'd say they'd find it odd that someone at
40 would go back to college to re-validate their skills. What I'm
saying in essence is I think there is a subtle and undeliberate
ageist attitude which pervades and I've heard as much from
one honest recruitment consultant who told me that a prospective
employer wanted younger folks using the phrase "harder to
teach an old dog new tricks".

Anyone got any advice/ perspectives. I've thought of going to
a career counsellor.

<dvince>

I'm currently doing a PhD in a Computer Science-related field. I don't really know too much about the software development game I'm afraid, but I'll try offer some assistance.

Ageism is present in software development, from what I've heard from friends who are developers. I've no idea how widespread it is.There are *some* people with ageist attitudes in development, but that doesn't mean that every prospective employer will be prejudiced against you due to your age. You can't make assumptions like this based on what one recruitment consultant says.

How long have you been looking for new positions? You seem a bit vague as to what your current employment position is. Are you unemployed? Unhappily employed? Underemployed?

You say that having interviewed people for positions in the past, you would not look on it favourably if someone went back to college at a late age. Are you sure that this is a viewpoint that is widespread throughout the industry, or are you assuming that your opinions are universally held when in fact they are not?

You've listed off several web service related technologies, J2EE, Oracle, etc which you feel are an example of the kind of stuff that you've not picked up on, and you feel this is a problem for you. Do you want to work with these technologies in particular? If so, why? (better money, more prospects, more interesting work?) Is it possible that you could use your existing skills to land a position which will eventually expose you to these newer technologies? I would have thought that someone with your experience could do this, though I accept that you may not be flexible with regards to location due to family comittments, etc.

There's no career path set in stone for software developers. You may very well have to bite the bullet and take those two steps backwards to get yourself facing in the direction you want to.

fatboypee

mmmm.. Tough one ... I'm in a similar position, got off the greasy pole some time back and moved to the country... I currently work in a job that pays 20-30% less than I could get in Dublin and shed loads less than in London... My career path like your own wandered and I'm stuck, still developing at the ripe old age of 39 when I'm equally capable of better things.

My take on this is that where I am the jobs are few but the stress is less.. I'm 15 minutes from home and sometimes gets massively bored and depressed about IT etc etc.... then think about becoming a woodwork teacher to end my days (don't laugh, I'm serious!)...

ooooh to be out of IT...

One consideration that pops up on a regular basis with me is "will I go contracting"... maybe thats something to consider... it works but its hard... especially on the family as you have to be away for the week and back at weekends (thankfully contracts are becoming more frequent too)..

Also C/Java can easilly migrate to c# & .Net its not so tough to learn with the express editions and bit of time so maybe some effort in new technologies maybe the way to go in your spare time.....

FBP..

dvince1

FBP

I thought for a while about maybe seeking contract work as a stop gap
between finding a permanent position. However, contract positions are
even more heavily dependent on the employee having very specific
skills. They don't mess around. In the Java space it is all App server,
database integration work and the likes and you really need to have
a proven experience in that area. There is zero tolerance for
learning the basics on the job. The contractor is being paid per hour
and they really need to be assured that you can do the job with
your eyes closed in most cases.

I think to be honest I've lost my whole appetite for the IT work.
I can try to artificially boost my interest during a job interview
but clever interviewers can suss out fairly quickly if your heart
is in the sort of job that they are offering or not. If they have
doubts in the fact that I don't meet the job spec in terms of
exact list of technologies any doubts are probably made worse
by what might seem like a lack of zeal for the job being offered.

So what I'm thinking is to go back to college and do something
completely different or else do a masters or similar in IT/software
development or similar and use it as a soft landing to see if I
can reawaken my interest in the field which I seem to have
just let slip in my mid 30s.

I thought about teaching for a while too but I left it too late
this year to apply to do a HDip. Also, I'm just so many years
away from when I did second level I'm going to be rusty
(despite a good academic record) in delivering teaching courses.
Also someone put a wise word in my ear that I'd be mad to
try out teaching at 40+. They were a wise sort and they said
that a younger teacher can toughen up with the years to get
a thick neck required to cope with unruly teenagers but
they said their gut feeling was a 40-something would be
overwhelmed with the whole discipline control crap that goes with
teaching nowadays

DublinWriter

dvince1 wrote:

I think to be honest I've lost my whole appetite for the IT work.

I hear ya brother.

I'm 36 and have been working non-stop in I.T. since the tender age of 18. I did my Hons. BSc in TCD in I.T over a six year period at night (it started as a 3 year diploma course, then they added a 2 year BSc extension, then they added a one year Hons. BSc extension, talk about milking it!).

I've gone back and I'm now doing an MSc in I.T. Management part-time.

Nine years ago I was working in I.T. for a big pharma company, in my mid 20's, full of piss and vinegar and wanting to take over the world. My direct boss at the time came from a largish consultancy, in his mid-40s, and generally considered by everyone to be a bully, a burn-out case and unstable. He went through a separation and eventually had a nervous breakdown.

Seeing his experience up close and personal made me think that maybe the whole greasy-corporate pole wasn't for me so I decided to go it alone, flogging software wot I wrote on the Net and doing contract work.

I've been working under my own Limited company for the past nine years now.

The contract side of things really took off. I did work for clients in the UK, Belgium and Germany and have had an absolute ball, but the work could be very dull and unchallenging.

As a contractor, you're always the hired gun and sometimes you do really simple stuff that you can't believe you’re being paid so much for. The main reason for this being is that politics rears its ugly head in organisations and sometimes internal factions within a company don't want to commit headcount to a project when they can use contractors paid for out of separate budgets.

At the moment, I'm reassessing my future career in I.T. I used to love the tecnology and programming, now I'm starting to hate it. I'm starting to hate working with "I.T people" (how ironic is that?) and always prefer it when I'm working with the business-side of the client's house.

I'm starting to hate having to completely re-skill myself every couple of years when I busted my testes on a long drawn out BSc and hopefully MSc.

I'm sort of at the decisional cross roads in deciding whether to cross over into the dark-side and become a Business Analyst and drop the technical thread to my career altogether. At the moment my work is 50/50 business/technical but personally I find that when people know you're strong technically then they perceive that you'll be no good at anything else.

There are also specialist areas that I'm starting to see that I could make a killing selling packaged software into. That was always my original intention, but I sorta went for the fast buck when I should have been thinking a little more strategically. I thought I could develop packages as well as work as a full-time contractor, but I nearly burnt myself out completely doing that five years ago.

As well as that I've also been writing various articles for publications in Ireland and the UK and am working on a number of fiction-based projects. That work is really keeping me 'alive' right now, albeit not financially!

But it's easy to think of far-away hills as being green. I played drums from age 12 and was in various semi-successful and utterly forgettable bands. A friend is a pharmacist in his mid 40's, has a chain of pharmacies as must be worth about 2million by now. He has a lifestyle you or I could only dream about.

He's also a fantastic guitarist and unlike me, still gigs around. I asked him recently if he had a chance to do it all again, what would he do and he said music. Now given his current wealth and love of Michelin-starred restaurants, I just know this guy is staring at far away green hills, and had he gone the other road, would have been sitting in the back of a Hiace on the way to playing some marquee in Ballydehob and been dreaming of being a successful pharmacist!

Apologies to all for the ‘War and Peace’ size of this post, I usually try to keep it brief, but when I saw this thread something in me went ‘ding’ and here I am, almost 800 words later.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too mired in the negative and look at the positive and use it as a base to build something better and more fullfilling in your life. Realistically at our ages, starting over just isn't an option.

...and if you find the answer, let us know!

TempestSabre

I think anyone disillusioned with coding should do some business/marketing/managment qualifications an try to get into a business analyst/presale technical roles. Also do some contracting as it will widen your experience and really bring it home to you about the business of IT, and give you some people skills. I think some contracting looks good on a CV. Many companies look for mature people, who have some people skills with good technical skills for business analyst/technical presales roles. You might not need to drop IT completely but just get a role where you get your head away from the PC and coding for a while.

I worked in a few miserable IT companies, that had me considering dropping IT. On leaving I struggled to find a role against younger more experienced developers, but then did some contracting, had some good experience doing that, realised that many companies place equal if not more value on maturity, experience, and a wide range of skills than just a code bunnies. In fact most of my contract roles only involved about 30% development and the rest business analyst type work/skills. I left contracting a few years back, because it was a bit too irregular for me at that time. I might return to contracting in the future as I did enjoy it.

Most of my colleagues, friends etc who work in IT are between 28-50. Most of them are still "into" IT. Anyones thats not tends to be working in a place they don't like or with people/managers they don't get on with.

As an aside I tried going back to college myself, and didn't really enjoy it.

fatboypee

dvince1 wrote:

I thought for a while about maybe seeking contract work as a stop gap
between finding a permanent position. However, contract positions are
even more heavily dependent on the employee having very specific
skills. They don't mess around. In the Java space it is all App server,
database integration work and the likes and you really need to have
a proven experience in that area. There is zero tolerance for
learning the basics on the job. The contractor is being paid per hour
and they really need to be assured that you can do the job with
your eyes closed in most cases.

dvince1,

prior to going permy this time I've been a contractor (more on than off) for over 15 years, beleive me when I say this, the contract world is NOT full of people who know aboslutely, everything they're talking about. In fact it is my experience that it is pretty much 70% chancers, 30% experts. It really depends on what you're employed to do but there is no harm in talking to agencies and putting out your CV, very often they do want cutting edge technologies but very often they don't get them and do accept someone with the good technical grounding and who can pick up, if required, enough of those technologies to produce a solution. I don't agree there's zero tollerance to be honest. As long as you set out your stall. Domestic experience of emerging technologies is also often helpful.

dvince1 wrote:

I think to be honest I've lost my whole appetite for the IT work....
I can try to artificially boost my interest during a job interview

Yep, I can well relate to that, I get a buzz out of doing new things, developing new things can sometimes stimulate me for a while but I spend alot of time on Yahoo Chess , leaving work delivery to the last POSSIBLE minute. Its an ego trip and a kind of fatalism I think as I still end up delivering at the end of the day..just can't seem to finish anything off!!

My point here is why on earth would you think going back to college to do even more IT related stuff will help you out with this ?

Ref the teaching too, as I said earlier, I'm still game for going into teaching even at a ripe old age. Its not a mission, I think it depends on where you're gonna teach and what and there'll be sh1t loads of issues and problems probably and maybe Im wearing rosey specs but to me, I love creating things and also teaching (coach of two Rugby teams) along with the 4 O'Clock finish & summers off thats motivation enough I know...teachers work hard etc etc... but theres my view ...:D

I suppose my point overall is there's more to life than work ? I think myslef lucky to be in a job where I can be employed in lots of different places should I choose, I chose to get off the greasy pole and find a quiet little cubbyhole for a while and concentrate on what I really want out of life. I'm not quite sure what it is but I'm sure as hell not IT centric anymore even though it pay my wages ...:)

dvince1

I've started to consider the possibility of taking more time out to
do a postgrad degree in fairly mainstream business subjects.
I've seen a HDip in Business Studies (1yr full time) in NUIG postgrad
prospectus, for example. I know I am at a crossroads. Given that
I am finding it difficult to pick up work in the small number of
IT companies in the region I feel I need to occupy myself for the
next year in some kind of constructive way.

What is anyone's view on the idea of a techie in late thirties doing
a business higher degree ? I'm guessing it might possibly make me
more marketable although I am conscious that I am losing out all
the time on real on-the-job experience the longer I am out of
the actual workforce.

<dvince>

yop

Sounds very familiar lads all that, same as that I am sick to the teeth of IT, same as that I am in the West and unless i want a 1.5 hour drive each way to work there is no other IT places I could work.
In saying that we live in a lovely quite spot by the sea with a shortish enough drive to work, about 40 minutes.

I too have been contemplating the teaching road, lecturing had been an consideration until they dropped IT from the courses in the IT where I am beside!
So I have been thinking about the teaching, I know HiberniaCollege do an online teaching course, but it costs about 5k euro but is recognised!

But now with a wife and house all this is a serious decision.!

Tom Dunne

dvince1 wrote:

What is anyone's view on the idea of a techie in late thirties doing
a business higher degree ?

I am in my early 30's and and a lecturer. At least 40% of the students in my evening classes are older than I am, so don't worry - you will be in good company.