89s ep

fuzzbox

5/10 6-max game
Stacks are reasonably large
I have 1.6k
reraiser has 1k
SassyPants has 1.5k

Preflop
I open to 35 utg with 8s9s. I dont often do this, but sometimes its worth a swing. next to act makes it 80 to play. He has just recently sat down, and I have no idea what this means. Sassy cold calls. Sassy is good solid tag, and wont be speeding around here too often. If I was a betting man, I would say he has a pair of some sort. Folded to me, and I call figuring pot odds are good and relative position Vs reraiser is good

Flop (250)
Js 7s 6d
I check, reraiser bets 100 (jebus), sassy makes it 350, and action is on me.

Your move rat fans?
Explain your plan for the rest of the hand too.

califano

If you think your the only one on the flush draw call in the hope the reraiser calls too. At this stage im thinking im against a set. If you dont make your flush or straight on the turn call another bet and if you do reraise all in.
Fold to a bet on the river i say.

careca

I would ignore reraiser at this stage, looks like a continuation bet (prob AK). So its either call the bet and reevaluate on the turn or push now. I would prob call the bet and if I dont hit on the turn and sassy pushes then I would fold.

All this is presuming that sassy has a set at this stage or at worst an overpair.

brianmc

fuzzbox wrote:

5/10 6-max game
Stacks are reasonably large
I have 1.6k
reraiser has 1k
SassyPants has 1.5k

Preflop
I open to 35 utg with 8s9s. I dont often do this, but sometimes its worth a swing. next to act makes it 80 to play. He has just recently sat down, and I have no idea what this means. Sassy cold calls. Sassy is good solid tag, and wont be speeding around here too often. If I was a betting man, I would say he has a pair of some sort. Folded to me, and I call figuring pot odds are good and relative position Vs reraiser is good

Flop (250)
Js 7s 6d
I check, reraiser bets 100 (jebus), sassy makes it 350, and action is on me.

Your move rat fans?
Explain your plan for the rest of the hand too.

Surely it's very poor value to flat call and reevaluate the turn? I don't like the idea of paying for one card at a time.

I'm thinking push now - on the flop. (It's not my money obviously.) Is this the tournament player in me coming out? You're probably the favourite IF you're getting to see two more cards.

Mr. Flibble

Do you think Sassy would call if you pushed with AsKs?

fuzzbox

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Do you think Sassy would call if you pushed with AsKs?

Does this mean - "do you think Sassy would call with AsKs if you pushed"?

If I push, what does MY hand look like?

Mr. Flibble

fuzzbox wrote:

Does this mean - "do you think Sassy would call with AsKs if you pushed"?

If I push, what does MY hand look like?

Yes, knew that would cause confusion!

I don't know your image but possibly any set if you pushed or AsKs AsQs...

brianmc

fuzzbox wrote:

Does this mean - "do you think Sassy would call with AsKs if you pushed"?

If I push, what does MY hand look like?

Same as Flibble said, I think... A set or a very big draw.

Are you not concerned about losing your action once the draw hits?


you're not thinking of MINraising are you?!?!?

Culchie

Push !

Ollieboy

The question here is, are you up against a higher drawing flush, ie AKs and also does someone already have trips and only needs the board to pair to make a house. There's a big chance one of the above is an option and the best hand for you at the moment would be the straight without a flush on the board.


Sassy's bet is a big bet at this stage of the hand and would indicated that he doesnt want any free cards, so we can put him on a overpair or trips, I think he would play trips a little slower, the first player could have anything at this stage, but you would have to be concerned that he as the higher flush draw.

I think you have two choices, either fold and wait for a better chance, or push and hope to hit, I dont like the push as if your called you can only be behind. Calling the bet for an extra cards, means you'll have to call whatever bet he makes on the river due to pot odds and been committed to the hand.

Sassy, could also have AJ here with the As, so if you push here, its very likely he'll call but if you hit your card, he'll be a big underdog.

Interesting options.

ianmc38

I'd probably push here.

I'd say a push looks like an overpair, maybe a set of jacks not wanting to give a cheap card on a board with lots of draws.

Culchie

Ollieboy wrote:

Sassy, could also have AJ here with the As, so if you push here, its very likely he'll call but if you hit your card, he'll be a big underdog.

15 cards ..no ?

careca

Ollieboy wrote:

I Calling the bet for an extra cards, means you'll have to call whatever bet he makes on the river due to pot odds and been committed to the hand.



.

I would disagree with this. Presuming sassy has a set and thats a big presumption you are about a 60/40 dog on flop, but once you miss the turn bet you become about a 75/25 dog, therefore I think its ok to call the flop bet and reevaluate.

Ollieboy

Culchie wrote:

15 cards ..no ?

? Explain!

Ollieboy

careca wrote:

I would disagree with this. Presuming sassy has a set and thats a big presumption you are about a 60/40 dog on flop, but once you miss the turn bet you become about a 75/25 dog, therefore I think its ok to call the flop bet and reevaluate.

I'm not putting Sassy on trips, I putting him on AsJ or an overpair. If he had trips I think he would only call the bet, hoping to get paid big on the turn.

Agreed, you dont have to call the bet at the river, but you'll feel commit to the hand at this stage and there will to much in the pot to walk away from. But if you call the flop bet, you have to be prepared to call the bet on the river, hence the reason to push now or fold now.

Mr. Flibble

Ollieboy wrote:

I think you have two choices, either fold and wait for a better chance, or push and hope to hit, I dont like the push as if your called you can only be behind. Calling the bet for an extra cards, means you'll have to call whatever bet he makes on the river due to pot odds and been committed to the hand.

But the idea of a push is that you win the (reasonably large) pot with 9 high, but if somone has a set you are nearly 5050 to win. I think the most important question is will you be called with a flush draw because if you are you are right in the shlt, although you have 12 outs still provided nothing hits for him.


Were you ever thinking of folding here fuzzbox?

Mr. Flibble

Ollieboy wrote:

I'm not putting Sassy on trips, I putting him on AsJ or an overpair. If he had trips I think he would only call the bet, hoping to get paid big on the turn.

Why not trips? If I had trips I'd hope reraiser had AA or KK like he's representing. No TAG I know calls with AJo after an utg raise and a reraise infront of him.

fixer

Ollieboy wrote:

? Explain!

14 outs assuming a set for the villian: 4x 5, 4x T, 6x spades...

handsfree

the question is how far do you want to go with this hand stack wise. if you reraise to say €1K is sassy going to fold- whats your image like? If sassy reraises all-in do you call? if you flat call are you letting the pot get too big without being the leader?

if you just flat call will sassy put you on a set?

its a tough spot because you don't know if your flush draw is good but assuming it is, i think flat calling is probably a bad idea because if you flush card hits you are not getting action thus no implied odds.

i'm going to have to stay passve here and just flat call, because if sassy is as solid as you say he will call your push here, he however will be worried by a flat call so might check, this will give you an opportunity to take down the pot.

Ollieboy

fixer wrote:

14 outs assuming a set for the villian: 4x 5, 4x T, 6x spades...

Sorry, aggreed, put I'm not putting him on a set, AJ looks the most possible hand here, if he had pair JJ, he would have reraise preflop and I'm hoping he wouldn't call a raise with 66/77, but of course thats possible.

But I still think he's hit the J with A kicker and believes that the first bet is a continuation bet, so he's now trying to kill the action with a 250 bet or isolated the pot down to one player.

Culchie

fixer wrote:

14 outs assuming a set for the villian: 4x 5, 4x T, 6x spades...

I seem to be missing my spade, has anyone seen it?:o

15 outs no?

fuzzbox

Ollieboy wrote:

Sorry, aggreed, put I'm not putting him on a set, AJ looks the most possible hand here, if he had pair JJ, he would have reraise preflop and I'm hoping he wouldn't call a raise with 66/77, but of course thats possible.

But I still think he's hit the J with A kicker and believes that the first bet is a continuation bet, so he's now trying to kill the action with a 250 bet or isolated the pot down to one player.

Olly - really the possibility of Sassy having AJ (either suited or unsuited) is about 0%.

ianmc38

Culchie wrote:

I seem to be missing my spade, has anyone seen it?:o

15 outs no?

No because if the non spade on the board pairs we lose to a house

edit: reread op - 6s hits we lose (assuming villain has a set)

Mr. Flibble

Ollieboy wrote:

Sorry, aggreed, put I'm not putting him on a set, AJ looks the most possible hand here, if he had pair JJ, he would have reraise preflop and I'm hoping he wouldn't call a raise with 66/77, but of course thats possible.

I think he could have JJJ/666/777. Alot of peple wouldn't reraise a reraise with JJ.

Culchie, Sassy robbed your spade if he has AsJx.

Bandana boy

fuzzbox wrote:

Olly - really the possibility of Sassy having AJ (either suited or unsuited) is about 0%.

What did you think sassy had ?

I think if i think a set is out there i call/fold if not i push

Ollieboy

fuzzbox wrote:

Olly - really the possibility of Sassy having AJ (either suited or unsuited) is about 0%.

Ok, so you dont put him on tptk here, with the Ace of spades. If you already have him on a set, than I would be folding or at most just calling the 250 bet to see the next card, but if I miss on the turn, you would find it very hard to call any bet on the river card.

Ollieboy

reading your first post, I see you more or less have him on trips already, or an overpair.

brianmc

Ollieboy wrote:

Ok, so you dont put him on tptk here, with the Ace of spades. If you already have him on a set, than I would be folding or at most just calling the 250 bet to see the next card, but if I miss on the turn, you would find it very hard to call any bet on the river card.

What use is the Ace of spades? There's only two spades on the board.

Folding is a possibility against a set perhaps but the value is "pretty" good. Calling is useless. If the turn gives you either of your draws, your opponents clam up. If it doesn't, you get charged a big price for the river.

Against an overpair, you can't fold.

On the whole - push. (Twice if you can.)

delanec8

I think it depends on how willing Sassy is to make a move. This would be a good situation to raise 350 on nothing because the reraisers bet looks so weak. He doesnt have two pair here so unless he has absolutely nothing his range is pretty small imo. (JJ,77,66,AKs,AQs). I think most of the time he has a set here and is calling a push though. I think you can rule out KK or AA. With a raise and a reraise preflop there is no point in slowplaying these hands.

You are about 40% against this hand range. Depending on how often he will make a move and have to fold, i would push or fold. If you call and a spade hits you may kill your action. If a blank comes he is betting big and you have to fold. If you hit one of your straight cards you will probably stack him since he can't expect you to call off €350 on that.

I like the push here because i can't fold these hands:D

Culchie

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I
Culchie, Sassy robbed your spade if he has AsJx.

*If* shouldn't be counted in the 'outs' ... although it should be a factor in your decision making.

Ian was right though, if that 6 spades lands (if Sassy has a set) which I can't see from profile description of her.

Looks like an overpair to me, so I'm sticking with my 15 outs.

Mr. Flibble

Culchie wrote:

*If* shouldn't be counted in the 'outs' ... although it should be a factor in your decision making.

Ian was right though, if that 6 spades lands (if Sassy has a set) which I can't see from profile description of her.

Looks like an overpair to me, so I'm sticking with my 15 outs.

I respectfully disagree. If he has AsJx on that board he has 14 outs.
If we don't know what he has then call it 15 outs.

FastMachine

Surely sassy has a set or AA/KK if he called a reraise preflop and makes a flop reraise of that size. If I had a set on the flop I'd definately reraise it.
I'd push all in here, your're nearly 50/50 if he has a set and even better if he has AA or KK, plus there's a chance you get a shot at the other villains stack too if he calls which would probably be dead money in the pot as it looks like Sassy has him dominated.

Culchie

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I respectfully disagree. If he has AsJx on that board he has 14 outs.
If we don't know what he has then call it 15 outs.

repectfully agreed ... the *IF* is the x factor here.

We don't know what he has because his cards are face down:p

fuzzbox

brianmc wrote:

Folding is a possibility against a set perhaps but the value is "pretty" good. Calling is useless. If the turn gives you either of your draws, your opponents clam up. If it doesn't, you get charged a big price for the river.

Do your opponents frequently clam up if an offsuit T appears on this board when they have a set?

I think you undervalue your implied odds.
Also - if he does have a set ... does he put *me* on a flush draw 100% of the time when a flush card hits?

delanec8

I don't see how he has an overpair, maybe QQ. If he was faced with a raise and a reraise preflop he can't be worried about not getting action with his AA or KK so i think he rereraises.

On this board you have to raise with your set. There are too many draws out there.

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

What did you think sassy had ?

I think if i think a set is out there i call/fold if not i push

If I was a betting man (and Im not).

I would say - KK/QQ/JJ/77/66 is probably his range.
Some vague chance of AsKs, and some vague chance of TT/99 (although he prolly would just call the flop bet with those hands).

Benglian

I am not a Hold'em player....
But is there any value here in calling the flop, with the intention of using your Irish position and pushing ANY turn card?

It is effectively the same bet as pushing on the flop BUT it could be a move that a set makes...so it 'may' push Sassy off 66 or 77...and it will push him off AKs..AQs...the overpair...and of course you may actually hit....

fuzzbox

Benglian wrote:

I am not a Hold'em player....
But is there any value here in calling the flop, with the intention of using your Irish position and pushing ANY turn card?

It is effectively the same bet as pushing on the flop BUT it could be a move that a set makes...so it 'may' push Sassy off 66 or 77...and it will push him off AKs..AQs...the overpair...and of course you may actually hit....

A set pushes now (well I push a set now).
So this probably wont work.

Benglian

fuzzbox wrote:

A set pushes now (well I push a set now).
So this probably wont work.

So push! He might put you on the set and fold....or he might call and you have outs?

Q. We all seem to be forgetting ReRaiser here. Could HE have JJ ?

Ollieboy

brianmc wrote:

What use is the Ace of spades? There's only two spades on the board.

If the 3rd spade hits the flop, he can represent the nut flush, seen as he has the As, its very hard to push your whole stack forward without the nut flush, so it is important part in relation to his hand.

Fuzzbox, I can't see him having KK as I think he would have reraised preflop, also QQ is unlikely as he didnt raise preflop and is now raising now, why not do it before the flop. There's something in the flop that makes his hand strong and also, he doesn't want any draw outs, so he's trying to kill the hand here. Trips or AJ, I cant see him betting with 1010 or 99 etc as he would flat call after the 2nd player bet 100. He could also be on the nut flush draw.

I dont think I would be pushing here, there's to many hands out there that can beat you best hand possible and calling the 250 leaves you open to call another bet to see the river card.

Fold, I know its a pussy move, but I dont like the action in front of me.

So what happened?

brianmc

fuzzbox wrote:

Do your opponents frequently clam up if an offsuit T appears on this board when they have a set?

I think you undervalue your implied odds.
Also - if he does have a set ... does he put *me* on a flush draw 100% of the time when a flush card hits?

I see where you're coming from, and perhaps I am underestimating, but... surely you do have "reduced" odds of getting paid off if you call, waiting to hit?

I think any set calls you here but you might lose QQ or KK. (edit: on typing that out loud, I can see problems with it.)

If you flat call what does he put you on? I can't decide if I'm putting you on a big draw in that case because I know that's what you have or if I geuinely would put you on a big draw. I think I would.

ianmc38

Vs a set we're a marginal dog:

Board: Js 7s 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 41.1897 % 41.19% 00.00% { 9s8s }
Hand 2: 58.8103 % 58.81% 00.00% { JJ, 77-66 }

An op we're favourite:

Board: Js 7s 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 54.5342 % 54.53% 00.00% { 9s8s }
Hand 2: 45.4658 % 45.47% 00.00% { QQ+, AJo }

Most worrying is AsKs but surely villain is folding this hand to our push, unless he's a gambler?

Board: 7s Js 6h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 61.9192 % 61.92% 00.00% { AsKs }
Hand 2: 38.0808 % 38.08% 00.00% { 9s8s }

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Board: Js 7s 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 41.1897 % 41.19% 00.00% { 9s8s }
Hand 2: 58.8103 % 58.81% 00.00% { JJ, 77-66 }

Board: Js 7s 6d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 54.5342 % 54.53% 00.00% { 9s8s }
Hand 2: 45.4658 % 45.47% 00.00% { QQ+, AJo }

Ian - what are you trying to show?
He doesnt have AJ, so just take that out of all equations. This villain will never have AJ here.

FastMachine

Why call a reraise preflop with 89s if you're going to fold when the flop gives you both your draws and lots of action.

You've got the odds no matter what he has and you might even have an extra shack of dead money in the pot so you can't make a mistake by pushing.

fuzzbox

Results:
Ok - enough banter - this sure was an interesting one.

I thought villain might have KK/QQ or a set more often than anything else. sometimes he would have AsKs, but surely he couldnt call a push with that hand.

There was also a lot of "dead" money in the middle, that would make up for the times I got called and was an underdog.

I shoved - reraiser folded, and sassy insta-called with 66.

The turn was a Qd and the river was a glorious spade ... unfortunately it was the Qs, and Sassy was full.

PS - I expected him to fold KK/QQ a LOT to this action.

brianmc

fuzzbox wrote:

Results:
Ok - enough banter - this sure was an interesting one.

I thought villain might have KK/QQ or a set more often than anything else. sometimes he would have AsKs, but surely he couldnt call a push with that hand.

There was also a lot of "dead" money in the middle, that would make up for the times I got called and was an underdog.

I shoved - reraiser folded, and sassy insta-called with 66.

The turn was a Qd and the river was a glorious spade ... unfortunately it was the Qs, and Sassy was full.

PS - I expected him to fold KK/QQ a LOT to this action.

Are you happy with the line you took now that the post match analysis has taken place?

Any other options?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Ian - what are you trying to show?
He doesnt have AJ, so just take that out of all equations. This villain will never have AJ here.

That even in the worst case scenario of him having a set, we still have a big chance of winning the hand. AJ vs AA isn't much of a difference in our winning %. Didn't matter whether I add it or take it out.

Pushing IMHO is the right move as we may even get 66 to fold here some of the time and we don't mind all too much when they call as we've got 14 outs.

cardshark202

Just read this post, I push here as its very rare we'll ever be in terrible shape with our hand and we get sassy and re-raiser to fold most of the hands that beat us. Would you call with 66 in sassy's position to that action?

fuzzbox

brianmc wrote:

Are you happy with the line you took now that the post match analysis has taken place?

Any other options?

I think I have to push, just in case he has AsKs, and will fold it.

I guess I could call, hoping to keep the reraiser in, although he looks like he is weak-jack-mcweak, and having odds, and most likely having reasonable implied odds (especially if I hit my straight).

Its hard to take a bad line with this type of hand.

RoundTower

I completely agree with Fuzzbox's analysis. He has a set or an overpair or maybe AsKs, and will fold an overpair most of the time. Even if he calls with AsKs you have more outs than you expect, because I don't expect the original bettor to stick around very often.

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

Sorry, aggreed, put I'm not putting him on a set, AJ looks the most possible hand here, if he had pair JJ, he would have reraise preflop and I'm hoping he wouldn't call a raise with 66/77, but of course thats possible.

But I still think he's hit the J with A kicker and believes that the first bet is a continuation bet, so he's now trying to kill the action with a 250 bet or isolated the pot down to one player.

Ollie I really think you need to try a cash game at least once. Although even in a tournament I can't understand why a good player would always 4 bet JJ preflop here, fold 66/77 for 5% of his stack, or call a reraise with AJo and now try to build a huge pot with it.