Practical Self Defense Advice

garrath

I am a cyclist. I cycle quite a bit, and at times it is necessary to go through unsafe areas, or areas that become unsafe at night time. I tend to go out of my way to make sure that I avoid these areas, but they exist everywhere.

Recently, the brother of a friend of mine was cycling in Blanchardstown. He was approached by 3 guys who told him to hand over the bike. He didn't, and suddenly 10 people appeared and proceeded to beat him quite badly. I realise in this situation he made a few mistakes, number one being that he actually stuck around long enough to engage them in conversation. In this situation, I think I would:

1. simply not stop for them.
2. if they manage to stop me, give them my bike. I would prefer to be healthy and bikeless.

While these seem to be the sensible options to me, what would you do in this situation? How best would you deal with them? My own feelings are to run. If I can't run, give them what they want, even though it infuriates me.

I understand, from reading in other posts, that pepper spray is illegal in Ireland. Is there any other (legal) way to protect yourself from attack, or do you have to rely on being able to fend them off with self defense techniques you know. (btw, I know none).

So, to sum up, my questions are

1. What would you do if you were stopped by a group intent on harming you?
2. Is there any way to legally protect yourself? Something like mace, but legal.

judomick

1. run very fast in the opposite direction
2. not sure wind sprints are a good tool for running though

Millionaire

Do Not Stop For People. Anyone Anywhere.

TapouT

Millionaire wrote:

Do Not Stop For People. Anyone Anywhere.

I was about to say the same thing.

My brother was a natural victim for years'. Always getting beat up or mugged, and always in the most ridiculous situations and thats exactly the advice I gave him.

"Jimmy, don't stop and talk to these fvckers, their not your mates" Sh*t like that.

Sorry but some people are just dumb enough to make themselves victims.

Quillo

If you do have to stop. Get off the bike (don't hang around straddling the cross bar/top tube - its a very vulnerable position). And get off such that the bike is between you and the threat: Allows using the bike as a basic shield and makes legging it easier.

Best tactic though is not to stop where at all possible......

Quillo

BTW...
A quick release seat post makes for an excellent improvised SD tool

Dragan

It is unlikely the anyone would be able to deal with 10 attackers to the point of receiving only minor injuries themselves. Generally speaking you will just be bowled under by weight of numbers.

All the advice given above is really decent.

1) Try not to stop.
2) If you are stopped then fully dismount the bike and leave the bike between them and you.
3) If it is clear that they want the bike then simply leave the bike when it is and move in the other direction as quickly as possible.

Many, many "10 pint hardies" would say "I won;t back down from anyone" but quite simply there is a time to be brave and a time to be sensible.

As you said youself, better to be bike less and healthy that to take the beating and get your bike stolen anyway.

On the subject of a weapon, once more nothing short of Kevlar and a semi automatic will really sort out ten people that quickly for you and if you do managed to brandish something then YOU are escalating it to a different level and it would be possible that one of then 10 attackers might have something as well and be all the more willing to use it.

Roper

garrath wrote:

1. simply not stop for them.
2. if they manage to stop me, give them my bike. I would prefer to be healthy and bikeless.

I think you've answered your own questions.

There are NO legal weapons in Ireland. The law doesn't care where you're cycling or that you need to carry one. Carrying any weapon is viewed as a sign of intent. In any case, I'd say introducing a weapon into a fight is a bad idea, particularly if you're outnumbered and unskilled in its use.

yomchi

Just stay away from these areas - full stop.

Oh and buy a car or a moped

FiannaGym.com

Go on ebay
Order some pepper spray
Apply liberally to the affected area

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Peace

Baggio...

Three blokes....It's a tough one.

I guess there are a couple of pre-conflict concepts you could use (where possible). 1) Avoid cycling in bad areas, and take another route. 2) Buy a cheap crappy bike for cycling to work.

The most important thing is to be “aware” and look out for those type of situations before they arise, i.e. - if you see three guys who are checking you out suspiciously, cycle away in the opposite direction. Better safe than sorry....

As millionaire said, NEVER ever STOP. Always move. Those three scumbags have a game plan. That is to stop and mug an easy target. If you don't stop in the first place you have immediately disrupted their train of thought and plan. Now they have to think, why did he not stop? Will we give chase?, What now? etc. And if you are on a bike by the time they figure out what has happened you're well gone. Again life is not perfect, and if they stop you and you cant run. Hand you bike over and then run to the cops.

Just my take....

Boru.

The best advice has already been given - Don't stop moving. I just want to bring to attention someting that is often overlooked in situations like this. If you can't get away, for what ever reason and you decide to hand over your bike, keep in mind that might not be the end of it. Just becasue you hand over you bike or wallet it doesn't mean they are going to say oh thanks we'll leave you alone now.

Look at Tom Ryes Price - he handed over everthing he had and they killed him anyway.

If you have to hand over your possessions do it in a way that creates the oppertunity to escape fast.

Vegeta

My girlfriend doesn't see these dangers either, I don't know how many times I have crossed the street out walking with her to avoid a group of people standing in shadows or street corners.

She always slags me saying I'm paranoid orasks annoyingly "why are we crossing the street?"

I am no self defense expert but i know and practice the first rule of self defense, avoid potentially dangerous situations and know how to spot them.

The second rule is run.

Millionaire

I 've often crossed the same street 3 or 4 times because
I did not like the look of people coming towards me or
hanging about.

And that was only walking home from the local pub.

Vegeta

Millionaire wrote:

I 've often crossed the same street 3 or 4 times because
I did not like the look of people coming towards me or
hanging about.

And that was only walking home from the local pub.

I'm the same if I am walking up oconnell street in Limerick I always cross over a few times cos of places like super-knacks and abra ka stab ra

Baggio...

Another thing is to Chuck you wallet (or whatever) away so they have to go and get it. As soon as u throw it - start backing off (if possible). If you are really paranoid you could always carry a dummy wallet:D .

It's true what Boru said...Even if they get what they want, they may still attack.

garrath

Thanks for your advice guys. From what I see, the best thing to do is to be as sensible as possible.

• Avoid areas where things like this could happen (the cycle lane under the m50 roundabout in Tallaght is absolutely terrible. I would advise people to stay clear of it at all times)
• Avoid groups of people who look like they could be a threat.
• Don't stop at all costs.
• If the above points do not work and they manage to stop you, give them what they want.
• After giving them what the want, run. Some of the advice seems to be to throw your wallet at them, or keep the bike in between you and them so it'll be an obstacle for them to get over. May give you a bit of time, plus they won't want to leave the wallet behind.

I did some poking around myself, and found some information on the usefulness of self defence devices in these situations. Basically, the only self defense device that is recommended is a very loud whistle or personal alarm. A personal alarm might confuse them enough so that you could get away, and they probably won't want to go chasing after someone who is drawing so much attention to themselves. A loud whistle is simple to use, and there are no batteries to die.

Any other form of self defence device is discouraged. Some of the sites I looked at evaluated stun guns (apparently they are useless, they just make the attacker angry) and mace (which they do not recommend. Its hard to use properly, it doesn't work on all people, it subject to the weather conditions and can be used against you). Also, both are illegal in Ireland. On my travels, I also saw devices similar to this http://cgi.ebay.ie/SELF-DEFENCE-SPRAY-UK-LEGAL-ANTI-ATTACK-SECURITY-SPRAY_W0QQitemZ6050270641QQcategoryZ20589QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem. As it only releases a foam and not a noxious gas, it does not fall under the firearms act and is purportedly legal in Ireland and the UK. Now, I have since realised that carrying anything like this is not a good idea. It will not work against multiple attackers, and it slows down your response to a situation as well as probably really annoying anyone you spray it on. But can anyone tell me about their effectiveness or if its worth considering?

So, in addition to the points already made in this forum, I would say maybe a whistle (very loud one with no moving parts) or a personal alarm might be something to consider.

Personally, I am absolutely infuriated by the attack on my friend. He is not Irish, his family moved over here a short while ago. He spent his own time and money fixing up the bike, just to get from A to B. Now some scumbag thinks he has the right to take this bike, that he has worked on and fixed up himself, to sell for 30 or 40 quid. I think in that situation, I would observe the common sense rules already stated in this forum, but my blood would be boiling.

Boru.

Believe me when I tell you that you are being far more sensible than the majority of people out there. There was a time when common sense was common

If you really do wnat to carry some form of defenive weapon I tell all my students to invest in a good quality slimline steel pen.

A metal pen is perfectly legal to carry everywhere and anywhere. Simply keep it clipped inside the pocket of you primary side (e.g. for most its right)
Should you be in a conflict situation where a lethal level of force is required you can quickly take out the pen and a) threaten to put it i your assalants eye, or throat and if under extreme circumstances only need to b) actualy put it through they're eye or throat. If this does not kill your assailant it will give you enough time to escape.

Again I reiterate this is a lethal force technique and can only be used in a life or death situation. If you are unsure about Use of force you can download my free ebook on the subject at www.self-defence-ireland.com

Hope this helps.

TapouT

Millionaire wrote:

I 've often crossed the same street 3 or 4 times because
I did not like the look of people coming towards me or
hanging about.

And that was only walking home from the local pub.

Thats called intoxication!.

Millionaire

Boru. wrote:

Believe me when I tell you that you are being far more sensible than the majority of people out there. There was a time when common sense was common

If you really do wnat to carry some form of defenive weapon I tell all my students to invest in a good quality slimline steel pen.

A metal pen is perfectly legal to carry everywhere and anywhere. Simply keep it clipped inside the pocket of you primary side (e.g. for most its right)
Should you be in a conflict situation where a lethal level of force is required you can quickly take out the pen and a) threaten to put it i your assalants eye, or throat and if under extreme circumstances only need to b) actualy put it through they're eye or throat. If this does not kill your assailant it will give you enough time to escape.

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Hope this helps.

Thats is true actually, pen is lethal weapon and legal.

Strangely, I was watching the movie Casion the other night.
The Pen attack scene!!!! crazy stuff!

I remember years ago, when I was a teenager, and a bit
of a "karate kid", getting into a tussel with one of the travellers,
and the traveller, had a lit smoke in this mouth, and he whipped
it out, right up to my eye ball, man I just froze in terror.

Imagine the strongest traveller accent...

"mister I ll ram that F%%Kin fag, into yer F$$Kin eye, if ya
don't F$$K off"

These boys had natural RBSD skills!

Odysseus

Milloniare and Boru are spot on about the pen. Two suggestions I would make are if you plan to carry a pen get a good heavy cross pen, due to attacks in my workplace I always carry one. I found cross pen to be the best for self defense and they are Irish too. However, you will need to train regularly with it, thankfully I have not had to use it, but I train with a workmate regularly about being able to deploy it quickly. The pen does not always need to be a lethal weapon, i.e. throat, eyes, etc. it can be used on other parts of the body too. The point I am making I suppose if don't expect the pen to do the work for you, I seen untrained guys fighting outside my job, and often when the attacker produces a weapon, it has been taken off him by the other person because he could'nt use it or was'nt committed to its use fully.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we should all carry something, and the cases I see are just violent attacks which I have no time for, however, the pens is great for the person who wants to merely protect themselvesves. Hope this is of some help, and that I made my point without appearing to condone violence.

Baggio...

One thing on the whole improvised weapon issue to think about.

There is always an accessibility consideration. How long will it take you to get the weapon out, etc. In a perfect world you would have easy access to it. However under stress and adrenaline you may start fumbling around for the weapon. And while you are doing that BANG! You've been hit. It might be quicker and more effective to just hit the guy really hard on the chin (eye strike or whatever). Especially if you are facing more than one opponent. Unfortunately while pens can be pretty nasty they don't cause referral shock, so unless you get a “near perfect” strike the guy might be able to continue on. Also, it may take multiple shots before there is any decent effect. While you could knock someone senseless with one palm strike/punch (assuming you could punch hard enough). Just another factor to consider on the whole tactical lifestyle.

That said, I have seen certain people who can access a weapon really fast. Such as Kelly Mc Cann with a Knife. So if anyone is going to carry a pen (or whatever) make sure you can deploy it at lightning speed. It's something you would need to drill over and over again. I would not carry anything myself to be honest, but that's just me.

Now - if I was in my house and I heard a noise that's a whole different story. My fist action is would be to grab something.

Just my angle....

Cheers,

B.